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  • Triune God

    Lou asked, "Please show me a scripture that claims God has a triune nature."

    Reply: Here are eight lessons on the triune Godhead.

    Godhead "What is the Godhead?"
    http://www.gotquestions.org/Godhead.html

    Answer:
    The term Godhead is found three times in the King James Version: Acts 17:29; Romans 1:20; and Colossians 2:9. In each of the three verses, a slightly different Greek word is used, but the definition of each is the same: “deity” or “divine nature.” The word Godhead is used to refer to God’s essential nature. We’ll take a look at each of these passages and what they mean.

    In Acts 17, Paul is speaking on Mars Hill to the philosophers of Athens. As he argues against idolatry, Paul says, “Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device” (Acts 17:29, KJV). Here, the word Godhead is the translation of the Greek theion, a word used by the Greeks to denote “God” in general, with no reference to a particular deity. Paul, speaking to Greeks, used the term in reference to the only true God.

    In Romans 1, Paul begins to make the case that all humanity stands guilty before God. In verse 20 he says, “The invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse” (KJV). Here, Godhead is theiotés. Paul’s argument is that all of creation virtually shouts the existence of God; we can “clearly” see God’s eternal power, as well as His “Godhead” in what He has made. “The heavens declare the glory of God; / the skies proclaim the work of his hands” (Psalm 19:1). The natural world makes manifest the divine nature of God.

    Colossians 2:9 is one of the clearest statements of the deity of Christ anywhere in the Bible: “In him [Christ] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.” The word for “Godhead” here is theotés. According to this verse, Jesus Christ is God Incarnate. He embodies all (“the fulness”) of God (translated “the Deity” in the NIV). This truth aligns perfectly with Colossians 1:19, “God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him [Christ].”

    Because the Godhead dwells bodily in Christ, Jesus could rightly claim that He and the Father are “one” (John 10:30). Because the fullness of God’s divine essence is present in the Son of God, Jesus could say to Philip, “Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father” (John 14:9).

    In summary, the Godhead is the essence of the Divine Being; the Godhead is the one and only Deity. Jesus, the incarnate Godhead, entered our world and showed us exactly who God is: “No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known” (John 1:18; cf. Hebrews 1:3).

    Recommended Resources: Making Sense of the Trinity: Three Crucial Questions by Millard Erickson and The Forgotten Trinity by James White and Logos Bible Software.

    Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/Godhead.html#ixzz3W0DJCOOq

  • #2
    OT Acts of God upon Jesus

    This passage is considered a Messianic prophecy about the Lord Jesus.
    This Old Testament passage which is quoted by the Apostle Matthew reveals God has chosen the Servant upon whom the Spirit of God will be.
    This passage slao predicts the ministry of the Lord Jesus in completing the divine plan of redemption.

    The relationship revealed in this passage is that God has chosen His Servant and will put His Spirit upon this chosen Servant of His.

    Matthew 12:18 NIV (quoted from Isaiah 42:1-3)
    18 “Here is my servant (Jesus) whom I (God) have chosen,
    the one I love, in whom I delight;
    I will put my Spirit on him,
    and he will proclaim justice to the nations.
    19 He will not quarrel or cry out;
    no one will hear his voice in the streets.
    20 A bruised reed he will not break,
    and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out,
    till he has brought justice through to victory.
    ------------------
    YHWH Spirit Jesus acting together
    In the synagogue at Nazareth after reading this passage from Isaiah 61 the Lord Jesus reveals to them that this prophecy is fulfilled as they have heard it read. Therefore, this passage reveals the Spirit of the Lord YHWH (Adonay Yahweh) is on “me.” By revealing the fulfillment of this prophecy in their hearing it is Jesus who is the “me” and who is being sent from Adonay Yahweh and whose Spirit (the Spirit of Adonay Yahweh) has anointed him (Jesus).
    The relationship revealed in this passage as read by the Lord Jesus is as follows:
    Adonay Yahweh has anointed Jesus with the Spirit of Adonay Yahweh.
    Adonay Yahweh is sending Jesus to perform the ministry Adonay Yahweh has proposed.
    It is clear that Adonay Yahweh is the initiator of the action of both anointing Jesus with the Spirit and sending Jesus. This is another verse where the three of them are revealed to be acting together.

    Luke 4:18-19 (quoted from Isaiah 61:1-2)
    18 “The Spirit of the Lord YHWH is on me (Jesus),
    because he (YHWH) has anointed me (Jesus),
    to proclaim good news to the poor.
    He (YHWH) has sent me (Jesus), to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
    and recovery of sight for the blind,
    to set the oppressed free,
    19 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”

    Comment


    • #3
      The Triune God and the Incarnation

      Luke 1.31 35
      The angel Gabriel, sent by God, spoke to the Virgin Mary.
      Luke 1:31-35
      “. . . 31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.”
      34 “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”
      35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God . . .”
      ---------------------------
      Christian theology understands the virgin birth of Jesus as essential to understand the Incarnation in how divinity became sinless man as the Son of God. Thereby, explaining both the sinless nature of Jesus and His deity. However the record of the virgin birth reveals more.

      From Luke 1:31-35 it is recorded the conception of Jesus occurred in Mary by the Most High when the Holy Spirit came upon her. This passage reveals two things which are not commonly recognized about the virgin birth.

      First, it is an occurrence where THE THREE of the triune God is revealed together in a passage of scripture:
      1. Jesus the Son of the Most High
      2, Lord God
      3. Holy Spirit

      Here in these five verses in Luke records the first revelation which will eventual become the basis for the Church doctrine of the triune God and the trinity and all the other attempts by Christians to comprehend the relationship of THE THREE.

      Second, the conception of Jesus in Virgin Mary by the Most High when the Holy Spirit came upon her revealed the relationship between the first and second persons of the godhead as a relationship of God the Father and God the Son. After these five verses in Luke there can never be a legitimate claim that God the Father and Jesus the Son do not exist in a father/son relationship. Wherever it is recorded in the New Testament that God is the Father of Jesus and Jesus is the Son of God the Father believers may not understand the language as merely figuratively, spiritual, or God in different modes or forms, but must understand it literally.

      Although, generally believed in the spiritual sense, that God is the Father of Jesus and Jesus is the Son of God the Father, the relationship must also be recognized physically as sire and offspring which makes the relationship of the first and second persons of the godhead, in some sense, as earthly and of the flesh as the father and son relationships of men, even though the divine conception must have been a supernatural miracle rather than a physical copulation. For Bible believers the Virgin Mary conceived a child born of flesh. To claim otherwise is to be antichrist. (1 John 4:2-3; 2 John 1:7). When the Lord Jesus address “my Father” as recorded forty-seven times in the Gospels, the Father and Son relationship is an actual father and son relationship.

      For theologians this may be a complication in conforming Jesus the Son to the eternal nature of the second person of the godhead. Some theologians have proposed that the Son has been eternally generated.

      However, there should be nothing about divine revelation which requires divine revelation to be rational according to human reason. Neither should there be the assumption that divine revelation reveals what would be necessary to satisfy human curiosity or reason. All that should faithfully be expected is enough revelation for the divine plan to be effective. This is reason enough to warn that speculation upon what the Bible means can never be divine revelation.

      Comment


      • #4
        Baptism of Jesus concerning the divine nature

        There follows a question about the divine nature as revealed from the parallel accounts of the Baptism of the Lord Jesus recorded in Matthew, Mark, and Luke and an eye witness testimony of John the Baptist in the Gospel of John.
        -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Baptism of Jesus from the four (4) Gospels

        Luke 3:21-22 NIV
        21 When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he (Lord Jesus) was praying, heaven was opened 22 and the Holy Spirit descended on him (Lord Jesus) in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You (Lord Jesus) are my (‘My’ is the voice came from heaven.) Son, whom (Lord Jesus) I (‘I’ is the voice came from heaven.) love; with you (Lord Jesus) I (‘I ‘is the voice came from heaven.) am well pleased” (Psalm 42:1).

        Matthew 3:16-17 NIV
        16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him (Lord Jesus). 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom (Lord Jesus) I (I is the voice came from heaven) love; with him (Lord Jesus) I (I is the voice came from heaven) am well pleased.”

        Mark 1:10-12 NIV
        10 Just as Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. 11 And a voice came from heaven: “You (Lord Jesus), are my Son, whom (Lord Jesus), I (I is the voice came from heaven) love; with you (Lord Jesus) I (I is the voice came from heaven) am well pleased” ((Psalm 42:1). 12 At once the Spirit sent him out into the wilderness, 13 and he was in the wilderness forty days, being tempted by Satan. He was with the wild animals, and angels attended him.

        John 1:29, 32-34 NIV

        29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him (John), and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who (the Lamb of God being the Lord Jesus) takes away the sin of the world!
        . . .
        32 Then John gave this testimony: “I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him (Lord Jesus). 33 And I myself did not know him (Lord Jesus), but the one who sent me (John) to baptize with water told me, ‘The man (Lord Jesus) on whom (Lord Jesus), you see the Spirit come down and remain is the one who (Lord Jesus) will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’ 34 I have seen and I testify that this is God’s Chosen One.” (Messiah being the Lord Jesus)

        --------------------------------------------------------------
        Summary: God speaks as Jesus the Son of God is baptized and the Holy Spirit comes upon the Son.
        Question: Can these passages be taken to mean that God, Son, and Holy Spirit are one being appearing in three roles (modes) at the same time and place or is there an actual relationship between the three?
        Does the idea that God, Son, and Holy Spirit are one being appearing in three roles at the same time and place (modes) make the record of what is happening between them deceitful?

        Comment


        • #5
          The THREE of the TRIUNE GOD is/are given together.

          Over sixty-five times the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are mentioned in the same context. Here are 21 of them.

          Matthew 28:19
          Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

          Luke 10:21 NIV
          21 At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.

          John 14:16 NIV
          And I (Jesus) will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—

          John 14:26 NIV
          But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name (Jesus), will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

          John 15:26 NIV
          [ The Work of the Holy Spirit ] “When the Advocate comes, whom I (Jesus) will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me (Jesus).

          John 16:15 NIV
          All that belongs to the Father is mine (Jesus). That is why I (Jesus) said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

          John 20:17 NIV
          Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I (Jesus) am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

          Acts 2:32-33
          32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.

          Acts 10:38English Standard Version (ESV)
          38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him (Jesus).

          Romans 15:16 NIV
          16 to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles. He gave me the priestly duty of proclaiming the gospel of God, so that the Gentiles might become an offering acceptable to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

          1 Corinthians 12:3
          Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is accursed”; and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

          2 Corinthians 13:14
          The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.

          Galatians 4:6 NIV
          6 Because you are his sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, Abba, Father.”

          Ephesians 1:17 also reveals that it is God the Father who gives the Spirit.
          The THREE of the triune God is given together since Father indicates there is a Holy Child.

          Ephesians 1:17 NIV
          that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him,

          Ephesians 2:13, 18, 22
          13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

          18 For through him (Christ Jesus) we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

          22 And in him (Christ Jesus) you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

          1 Thessalonians1:3-5 NIV
          3 We remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ. 4 For we know, brothers and sisters loved by God, that he has chosen you, 5 because our gospel came to you not simply with words but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake.

          Titus 3:5-8 NIV
          4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom (Holy Spirit) he (God) poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. 8 This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone.

          1 John 3:21-24
          21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

          1 John 5:7 NIV
          7 For there are three that testify:

          I wish to replace the above with the following:
          1 John 5:6c, 9-10 NIV
          And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.

          9 We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10 Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son.

          Jude 19-21 NIV
          19 These are the people who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.
          20 But you, dear friends, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.
          Last edited by glen smith; March 3rd, 2018, 10:16 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Matthew 22.41-46 Concerning the Divine Nature

            There follows a question about the divine nature as revealed from these two related passages, Matthew 22:41-46 and Psalm 110:1. The relevant five (5) names or titles are in bold font and underlined.
            --------------------------------------------------
            Matthew 22:41-46 NIV
            41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 “What do you think about the Messiah? Whose son is he?”
            “The son of David,” they replied.
            43 He said to them, “How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him ‘Lord’? For he says,
            44 “‘The Lord said to my Lord:
            “Sit at my right hand
            until I put your enemies
            under your feet.”’
            45 If then David calls him ‘Lord,’ how can he be his son?” 46 No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.
            ------------------------------------------------
            According to the Lord Jesus, King David, while speaking in the Spirit calls the Messiah ‘Lord.’ The Lord Jesus then asks the Pharisees, How can the Messiah be the son of King David?

            In asking this question of the Pharisees the Lord Jesus quotes from the writings of King David in Psalm 110:1. In this verse, YHWH or Jehovah speaks to David’s Lord.
            -------------------------------------------------------
            Psalm 110:1 ASV
            Jehovah saith unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand,
            Until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
            ---------------------------------------------------------
            In these two related passages there are five (5) words used for the divine nature.
            (note #1)

            Messiah - Matthew 22:41, 42,

            Son - - - - Matthew 22:41, 42, 45

            Spirit - - -Matthew 22:43

            Lord - - - Matthew 22:43, 44 (note #2), 45; Psalm 110:1 (note #3 & #4)

            Jehovah or YHWH - Psalm 110:1 (note #4)

            Notes concerning English versions use of Messiah, God, Lord, Father, Holy Spirit::
            #1. In the early handwritten Greek manuscripts of the New Testament there existed only the upper case Greek script (font). The lower case did not exist. Accordingly, in English versions the capitalization of the first letters of certain words and the capitalization of complete words are devices used by the editor or determinations made by the translators. Accordingly, nothing should be determined from the use of capitals (upper case) fonts in English versions.
            #2. In the New Testament Greek text of Matthew 22:44 Jehovah (YHWH) is translated as Lord in the quote of Psalm 110:1.
            #3. In the Hebrew text of Psalm 110:1 the title Lord occurs only as the second occurrence of Lord in some English versions. Where there are two occurrences of Lord for this verse the first occurrence is YHWH in the Hebrew text.
            #4. Psalm 110:1 - Lord occurs only once in the Hebrew text of this verse, accordingly, the title Lord in the Hebrew text occurs only in the second occurrence where Lord occurs twice in English versions.
            -------------------------------------------------------------
            QUESTION: Does anyone care to explain their understanding of the relationship of these five (5) words as they apply to the divine nature?

            -------------------------
            Cross references for Matthew 22:44
            New Testament (AKJV)
            Matthew 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
            Mark 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
            Luke 20:42,43 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
            Acts 2:34-35 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, until I make thy foes thy footstool.
            Hebrews 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

            LXX (Brenton)
            Psalms 109:1 The Lord said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool

            Masoretic (AKJV)
            Psalms 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

            Comment


            • #7
              Acts 2.29-36 concerning the Divine nature

              There follows a question about the divine nature as revealed from these two related passages, Matthew Acts 2:29-36 and Psalm 110:1. The relevant seven (7) names or titles are in bold font and underlined.
              -------------------------------------------

              Acts 2:29-36 NIV
              29 “Fellow Israelites, I (Peter) can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his (David’s) tomb is here to this day. 30 But (David) he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him (David) on oath that he (David) would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was to come, he (David) spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he (Messiah) was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his (Messiah’s) body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we (Peter and others) are all witnesses of it (resurrection). 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he (Messiah) has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you (listeners mainly Jews) now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,
              “‘The Lord said to my Lord:
              “Sit at my right hand
              35 until I make your enemies
              a footstool for your feet.”’
              36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you (listeners mainly Jews) crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”
              ------------------------------------------------
              According to the Apostle Peter, King David was a prophet and knew the Messiah would be one of his descendants whom God would raise from the dead. Apostle Peter quotes from the writings of King David in Psalm 110:1. In this verse, YHWH or Jehovah speaks to David’s Lord.
              -------------------------------------------------------
              Psalm 110:1 ASV
              Jehovah saith unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand,
              Until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
              ---------------------------------------------------------
              In these two related passages there are seven (7) names used for the divine nature.
              (note #1)

              Messiah - - - - Acts 2:31, 36

              Jesus - - - - - - Acts 2:31

              God - - - - - - - Acts 2:32, 33, 36

              Father - - - - - Acts 2:33

              Holy Spirit - - Acts 2:33

              Lord - - - Acts 2:34 (note #2), 36; Psalm 110:1 (note #3 & #4)

              Jehovah or YHWH - Psalm 110:1 (note #4)

              Notes concerning English versions use of Messiah, God, Lord, Father, Holy Spirit:
              #1. In the early handwritten Greek manuscripts of the New Testament there existed only the upper case Greek script (font). The lower case did not exist. Accordingly, in English versions the capitalization of the first letters of certain words and the capitalization of complete words are devices used by the editor or determinations made by the translators. Accordingly, nothing should be determined from the use of capitals (upper case) fonts in English versions.
              #2. In the New Testament Greek text of Acts 2:34 Jehovah (YHWH) is translated as Lord in the quote of Psalm 110:1.
              #3. In the Hebrew text of Psalm 110:1 the title Lord occurs only as the second occurrence of Lord in some English versions. Where there are two occurrences of Lord for this verse the first occurrence is YHWH in the Hebrew text.
              #4. Psalm 110:1 - Lord occurs only once in the Hebrew text of this verse, accordingly, the title Lord in the Hebrew text occurs only in the second occurrence where Lord occurs twice in English versions.
              -------------------------------------------------------------
              QUESTION: Does anyone care to explain their understanding of the relationship of these seven (7) names as they apply to the divine nature?

              Comment


              • #8
                Eight Perspectives of the Godhead
                1. Modalism, also labeled Modalistic Monarchianism, is the view that God variously manifested Himself in one of three modes - as the Father (primarily in the Old Testament), other times as the Son (primarily from the conception to His ascension), and other times as the Holy Spirit (primarily after Jesus’ ascension into heaven). God has simply revealed Himself in three different modes, and that He is not three Persons. Another way the three modes are viewed is God the Father in Creation, Son in Redemption, Holy Spirit in Regeneration. There is only one being at any one time who "morphes" for the purpose of His relationship to creation. Therefore, the Son is not pre-existent but just a mode of the Godhead. Modalistic Monarchianism / Modalism is also known as Sabellianism, named after Sabellius, an influential early proponent of the view. Sabellianism said God the Father is the only true existence of the Godhead. The Father and the Son are "one substance." Meaning that the Father and Son were one essential person. God was said to have three "faces" or "masks"

                2. Dynamic Monarchianism is the view that the nature of Jesus was fully human and not divine. God existed in Jesus, just as God exists in all disciples, but God existed in Jesus in a particularly powerful way. Jesus was of God only because God inhabited Him.

                3. Patripassianism - Yet another aspect of Modalistic Monarchianism / Modalism / Sabellianism is Patripassianism, which is the view that it was God the Father who became incarnate, suffered, died, and was resurrected. Patripassianism essentially teaches that God the Father became His own Son. The meaning of Patripassianism is that God suffers.

                4. Arianism - In the fourth century, Arianism taught that the Father existed prior to the Son who was not, by nature, God but rather a changeable creature who was granted the dignity of becoming "Son of God."

                5. Unitarianism – God is one person as viewed in Judaism, Islam and Unitarianism. Jesus is not divine.

                6. Oneness Pentecostalism – Father (a spirit) is united with Jesus (a man) as the Son of God. Oneness rejects sequential modalism and by the full acceptance of the begotten humanity of the Son, who is not eternally begotten, but who was born the man Jesus and was crucified and risen – to be the Son of God - but not eternal deity. As human, the Son is not pre-existent.

                7. Popular view of Oneness – Not all adherents of the idea of Oneness comprehend the Pentecostal doctrine as expressed by its theologians (number 6 above). It is common to find Pentecostals and others understanding Oneness in modalistic terms. That is one God expressed in three modes or faces. This view preserves the rational view of God as a single, Supreme Being without ignoring the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, each being other names for the Supreme Being and not three hypostases. Within this popular view of Oneness there is the sect which holds that Jesus is the only actual God and the Father and the Holy Spirit are modes of Jesus.

                8. Trinitarianism – One God of three hypostases (Greek word) or three consubstantial persons - God the Father, God the Son Jesus Christ, and God the Holy Spirit. Each hypostases is distinct and eternal and having always existed as one and the same substance or essence. It is not tri-theism as accused by detractors using logic in claiming three cannot be one. Of all the ideas about God which are conceived by man, Trinitarianism is the only illogical proposition. As an illogical proposition the Trinitarian fabrication was not made by using extensions from logical reasoning but designed with reason based upon the available Revelation in the Bible to oppose the above seven (7) views. Only because of what has been revealed is there the concept of the Trinity.

                The formulation faced a prolonged process and slow acceptance just because it is illogical. Final acceptance by the Church was won solely because the Trinity formulation best fit the Divine Revelation recorded in the Bible. However, because it is illogical to say, “Three is one and the same,” the doctrine must often be defended to each generation and even with more intensity as the western world grows more rational in applying reason and logic to determine the nature of truth rather than accepting Divine Revelation.

                In the fourth century, Arianism, as traditionally understood, taught that the Father existed prior to the Son who was not, by nature, God but rather a changeable creature who was granted the dignity of becoming "Son of God."1 In 325, the Council of Nicaea adopted the Nicene Creed which described Christ as "God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father." The creed used the term homoousios (of one substance) to define the relationship between the Father and the Son. After more than fifty years of debate, homoousios was recognized as the hallmark of orthodoxy, and was further developed into the formula of "three persons, one being."

                Athanasius, who was present at the 325 Council Nicaea as one of the Bishop of Alexandria's assistants, stated that the bishops were forced to use this terminology, which is not found in Scripture, because the biblical phrases that they would have preferred to use were claimed by the Arians and as such was capable of being interpreted in what the bishops considered to be a heretical sense. Moreover, the meanings of "ousia" and "hypostasis" overlapped then, so that "hypostasis" for some meant "essence" and for others "person". Athanasius of Alexandria (293–373) helped to separate the terms.2

                The Confession of the Council of Nicaea (A.D. 325) said little about the Holy Spirit. The doctrine of the divinity and personality of the Holy Spirit was developed by Athanasius in the last decades of his life. He defended and refined the Nicene formula. By the end of the 4th century, under the leadership of Basil of Caesarea, Gregory of Nyssa, and Gregory of Nazianzus (These three known as the Cappadocian Fathers), the doctrine had reached substantially its current form.

                Perhaps the most influential New Testament Trinitarian text is Matthew 28:19 (ESV) “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,” Also, the early church father saw in the Old Testament elements such as the appearance of three men to Abraham in Genesis 18, as foreshadowings of the Trinity.

                Lest in defense of orthodoxy, disciples forget, the Trinity is an idea conceived by man, even though these men were disciples. The benefit of the doctrine is that it aids in keeping within the confines of biblical Revelation. If what one is teaching or believing contradicts the Trinity formulation it will also be contradictory to the Bible. That is not to claim the Trinity doctrine is precisely correct, but that it surrounds the available Revelation in a formula that contains it. The Trinitarian formulation coincides with the activity of a God who can only be understood in Trinitarian terms if biblical Revelation is taken seriously.

                References:
                1. Chadwick, Henry. The Early Church Pelican/Penguin (1967) p.87
                2. Athanasius, Bishop of Alexanria, Theologian, Doctor". Justus.anglican.org. Retrieved 2 January 2012.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I asked for one verse or passage that used the words three or triune God, NOT to bury the subject in reams of copy and paste info.

                  I wonder why God did not use the simple word Triune instead of one. Are you saying that God was not able to think of the word Triune like really educated men have been able to do. Or are you saying God wanted to confuse us.

                  29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    In post #5
                    1 John 5:7 NIV
                    7 For there are three that testify:

                    I wish to replace the above with the following:

                    1 John 5: 6c, 9-10 NIV
                    And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.

                    9 We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10 Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by glen smith View Post
                      In post #5
                      1 John 5:7 NIV
                      7 For there are three that testify:

                      I wish to replace the above with the following:

                      1 John 5: 6c, 9-10 NIV
                      And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.

                      9 We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10 Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son.
                      The verse in 1 John that in in the KJV and others taken from it are all from a manuscript that has that verse, but that verse does not appear in even ONE ancient manuscript. Further as God tells us EVERYTHING has to be established by two or more witnesses and that verse has no witness in all of scripture.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        You seem to be in error if you think what I posted was the Comma Johanneum.

                        The Comma Johanneum is 1 John 5:7–-8 reads as follows from the KJV:
                        5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."

                        Inspect my revised post carefully. It avoids the Comma Johanneum which is
                        1 John 5:7-–8.
                        What I have posted is from the NIV not the KJV or any other translation using the Textus Receptus text.
                        My original post erroneously posted from the NIV the following.
                        1 John 5:7 NIV
                        7 For there are three that testify:

                        My original Bible study was completed some years ago using the NASB, and I was altering the version to the NIV and just copied the wrong verse. In the two oldest minority texts the word “three” in verse 7 is not even about the Godhead but about the Spirit (1), the water (2) and the blood (3). The two minority texts are about fifty years older than the hundreds of majority texts which according to Lou are not ancient manuscripts but the two minority are ancient.
                        -------------------------------------
                        Parenthesis on manuscripts:
                        In fact, Lou most likely read what he posted about ancient manuscripts. I too have read this from many sources and was even taught it by Bible scholars. For more than thirty years I understood the differences in age of the minority texts and the majority texts just as Lou describes it. When I actually researched the number and age of the different categories of manuscripts I knew I had been mislead. It is an untruth that just keeps getting repeated.

                        What shocked me most was that the minority text was a euphemism for two (2) manuscripts and that the meaning of "much older" or ancient texts is about 50 to 70 years older. The facts are that the minority texts were not even available or know about until recent times in the second half of the 19th century and had not been in use in the western Church for probably for way more than a thousand years. Both ancient minority manuscripts are incomplete manuscripts of the Bible. One of the minority texts was found in the Vatican storage and the other was partially retrieved from the garbage of a monastery in Sinai and the remainder portion was found unused on a shelf destined for the garbage. Since the second half of the 19th century a few other minority texts have been located which are more recent than the middle of the 5th century.

                        Those interested should know that the majority text category does not agree with the Textus Receptus in all aspects.
                        The end on the parenthesis on manuscripts.
                        -----------------------------------
                        The selected and posted passage avoids 1 John 5:7-8.

                        1 John 5: 6c, 9-10 NIV
                        And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.

                        9 We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10 Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son.
                        Last edited by glen smith; March 4th, 2018, 12:24 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          posted to wrong topic and moved
                          Last edited by glen smith; March 4th, 2018, 12:28 AM. Reason: moved

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by glen smith View Post
                            In post #5
                            1 John 5:7 NIV
                            7 For there are three that testify:

                            I wish to replace the above with the following:

                            1 John 5: 6c, 9-10 NIV
                            And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.

                            9 We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10 Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son.
                            I seen that your verse was from the NIV, BUT if you were implying that there are THREE concerning God I was pointing out that in the KJV that verse has been discredited.

                            If we look at the whole passage from the NIV:

                            1 John 5

                            6 This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7 For there are three that testify:8 the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

                            The three are the spirit (God) the water, and the blood.

                            Comment

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