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Where did the giants come from if God destroyed the Nephilim in the flood ?

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  • Where did the giants come from if God destroyed the Nephilim in the flood ?

    Why did the 12 spies that Moses sent to Canaan call the people "giants"?

    OR Where did the giants come from if God destroyed the Nephilim in the flood ?


    Lou Newton, former Steel Mill Crane Designer and Physics Teacher

    They called them giants because some were very large. Goliath was about 9′-6″ tall and probably weighed about 800 pounds.

    Genesis 6 NIV

    6 When human beings began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3 Then the Lord said, “My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; their days will be a hundred and twenty years.”

    4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

    5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.

    NOTE: The fallen angels who had been thrown out of heaven were not able to resist the beauty of human woman and had children by them. They were forbidden to do this and the Lord imprisoned those that did this in everlasting chains:

    Jude NIV

    . 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

    The fallen angels who could not resist the human women were imprisoned, and all the Nephilim, or their offspring were destroyed in the flood. BUT the scripture says the Nephilim were also on the earth afterwards.

    So some of the other fallen angels, who had not had sex with women before the flood, had sex with human women later. Their offspring were Nephilim, or giants.

    It seems Goliath and his brothers were some of the Nephilim.

  • #2

    Glen B Smith <[email protected]>
    To:lou newton

    Tue, Apr 28 at 1:39 AM

    Lou, you posted:

    NOTE: The fallen angels who had been thrown out of heaven were not able to resist the beauty of human woman and had children by them. They were forbidden to do this and the Lord imprisoned those that did this in everlasting chains:

    The fallen angels who could not resist the human women were imprisoned, and all the Nephilim, or their offspring were destroyed in the flood. BUT the scripture says the Nephilim were also on the earth afterwards.

    So some of the other fallen angels, who had not had sex with women before the flood, had sex with human women later. Their offspring were Nephilim, or giants.



    RESPONSE:

    Like many others, you assume the "sons of God" in Genesis 6 are angels which allows the information about angels in Jude 6 to be applied to the "sons of God" in Genesis 6. In the Bible there are several types of creatures in heaven who come from heaven to the planet Earth.

    The Lord Jesus revealed that angels do not marry when he said, "For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage but are like angels in heaven" (Matthew 22:30).

    One of two scenarios play out from this information:

    1. Angels are capable of sexual intercourse but deny themselves sexual gratification. The question arises if this is the case, why are humankind not married in the resurrection if there remains the possibility of sexual intercourse?

    2. Angels are incapable of sexual intercourse, therefore there is not the purpose for marriage between angels nor is there for humankind as the opportunity exited before the resurrection.

    Accordingly, the biblical support is for angels not being able to have sexual intercourse and could not have produced children with the daughters of men. The Bible reads that it was the "sons of God," not angels, who procreated with the daughters of men.

    There is not any biblical support for identifying the "sons of God" as angels - to do so is speculative error.

    28 April 2020 the old scribe
    Thanks you for your reply Glen;

    You write: There is not any biblical support for identifying the "sons of God" as angels - to do so is speculative error.

    You are speculating yourself claiming my post is in error. You have offered reasons you THINK it is wrong. But you have offered no proof at all that it is not. To call it error is speculation and to assume you are correct is also speculation.

    1 - You write: The Lord Jesus revealed that angels do not marry when he said, "For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage but are like angels in heaven" (Matthew 22:30). - This is NOT valid reasoning dear friend. For you claim since angels do not have sexual relations in heaven then fallen angels can not have sexual relations on earth. BUT since humans ALSO do not have sexual relations in heaven, by the same reasoning one would say that humans can not have sexual relations on earth also. I can testify, by my three children that is NOT true.

    2 - You claim that there is no reason to say that the sons of God are angels. That is NOT true. God Himself calls angels , The sons of God in the scriptures:

    Job 1 ESV

    6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. 7 The Lord said to Satan, “From where have you come?” Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it.”

    Job 2 ESV

    2 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them to present himself before the Lord.

    The sons of God here are obviously angels

    Job 38 ESV

    The Lord Answers Job


    38 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind and said:

    2 “Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?
    3 Dress for action like a man;
    I will question you, and you make it known to me.

    4 Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
    Tell me, if you have understanding.
    5 Who determined its measurements—surely you know!
    Or who stretched the line upon it?
    6 On what were its bases sunk,
    or who laid its cornerstone,
    7when the morning stars sang together
    and all the sons of God shouted for joy?


    God is asking Job where was he when Hod created the world and the stars. The sons of God were there but men were not. The son of God are angels in all three places that term is used in Job.

    Luke 20:36
    for they cannot die anymore, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

    Men become like angels in heaven and then are called the sons of God. If men become like angels in heaven, it is reasonable to think fallen angels become like men on earth in some ways. Men promote UP to heaven and angels FELL to earth. They are FALLEN angels. NOT heavenly angels anymore.

    Genesis 6 When human beings began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3 Then the Lord said, “My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; their days will be a hundred and twenty years.”

    Why would not God say the sons of God married the daughters of God. OR the sons of men married the daughters of men. God says the sons of God and the daughters of men. There is a reason God says this.

    6 When human beings began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3 Then the Lord said, “My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; their days will be a hundred and twenty years.”

    God says in the same passage that He is going to destroy the earth because of this marriage between the sons of God and daughters of men. Certainly God told the sons of men to marry the daughters of men and that would not be sin and would not bring forth giants.

    BUT the marriage between fallen angels was forbidden and would bring forth some sort of powerful being.

    Certainly you can explain why the marriage between and women upset God and how that produced these powerful beings.

    My friend you tear down, but you built nothing. Please explain the meaning of the passage if mine is in error.

    One should not tear down a house before they have built the new one to replace it. No one likes to dwell out in the rain and snow. I will stay in my house out of the rain and snow.

    PS - while you are at it please explain this:

    In the Bible there are several types of creatures in heaven who come from heaven to the planet Earth.

    Comment


    • #3
      Glen B Smith
      To:lou newton

      Wed, Apr 29 at 12:54 AM
      I read your post. I will answer some of your objections in a day or two. You ended with a surprise request. Here is my response to that.

      That you have to ask for a presentation about this concerns me. Are you able to understand what you read or have you never read the Bible? Surely, you know this stuff!

      To start his presentation, first to be established is that the Bible reveals the existence of nonphysical beings in the presence of YHWH.


      Members of the Divine Council Psalm 82:1

      God has taken his place in the divine council;
      in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:


      Sons of God Deuteronomy 32:8-9 English Standard Version (ESV)

      8 When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance,
      when he divided mankind,
      he fixed the borders of the peoples
      according to the number of the sons of God.
      9 But the Lord's portion is his people,
      Jacob his allotted heritage.



      Heavenly Beings, Council of the Holy Ones, all who around YHWH, YHWH of Hosts Psalm 89:6-8

      For who in the skies can be compared to the Lord?
      Who among the heavenly beings is like the Lord,
      7 a God greatly to be feared in the council of the holy ones,
      and awesome above all who are around him?
      8 O Lord God of hosts,
      who is mighty as you are, O Lord,
      with your faithfulness all around you?


      Before Elohim made man he spoke to an unidentified group. The pronoun "us" and "our" refer to the unidentified hearers. This might be the divine council.

      Genesis 1:26 Then God said,

      “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness."


      =======================



      Turning to nonphysical beings, other than God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit who have come to planet Earth.

      Besides angels and satan there are the following:


      Cherubim (Genesis 3:24)


      Sons of God (Genesis 6:2-4)


      Gabriel (Daniel 8:16; 9:20-21; Luke 1:19; 26)


      Unidentified radiant man (Daniel 10)


      Michael one of the chief princes (Daniel 10:13) and Prince to the people of Daniel 10:21; 12:1)


      Michael the Archangel (Jude 1:9)

      Unclean spirits (Matthew 8:16; 10:1; 12:28, 43; Mark 1:23, 26, 27; 3:11)


      Beelzebul or Baal Zebub

      2 Kings 1:1-6; Matthew 12:34; Mark 3:3; Luke 11:15

      Hosts of heaven

      2 Kings 23:4-5; 1 Kings 22: 19-23; 1 Chronicles 18:18-22; Luke 2:13

      ======================


      Extra biblical texts (as in Enoch) have theses nonphysical beings interacting on planet Earth. In some of the biblical accounts it could be construed that there was contact with these nonphysical beings.


      Member of the divine council or Holy Ones

      Psalm 82:1; 89:6-8


      Other gods

      Exodus 12:12; 20:3; 22:20; 23:33; Numbers 33:4; Deuteronomy 6:14; 34:13-14; Judges 10:6; 1 Samuel 7:3-4; 2 Kings 17:35; Jeremiah 7:6; 13:10; 25:6; 35:15; 46:25; Acts 7:42-43; Psalm 89:6-8; I Corinthians 8:5


      There are the gods named in the Bible (about 35) like Amon (Amun), Asherah, Ashtoreth, Baal, Baal of Peor, Baal Meon, Baal Hazor, Baal of Tyre, Baal Melquart, Baal Zephon, Baal Gad, Baal Berith, Baalim, Bel, Chemosh, Dagon, El, El Berith, Mardule, Marduk, Milcom, Molech, Queen of Heaven, & Topheth.
      Lou's reply to Glen:

      I will start with the easiest to refute. You write:

      There are the gods named in the Bible (about 35) like Amon (Amun), Asherah, Ashtoreth, Baal, Baal of Peor, Baal Meon, Baal Hazor, Baal of Tyre, Baal Melquart, Baal Zephon, Baal Gad, Baal Berith, Baalim, Bel, Chemosh, Dagon, El, El Berith, Mardule, Marduk, Milcom, Molech, Queen of Heaven, & Topheth.
      I can hardly believe you are actually claiming that the false gods that God lists in the Holy Scriptures are 1 - real 2 - beings from heaven

      God tells us that men make these false gods out of wood, silver, and gold and they are man made and not living, and not from heaven, so NOT heavenly beings.

      You write: Other gods

      Exodus 12:12; 20:3; 22:20; 23:33; Numbers 33:4; Deuteronomy 6:14; 34:13-14; Judges 10:6; 1 Samuel 7:3-4; 2 Kings 17:35; Jeremiah 7:6; 13:10; 25:6; 35:15; 46:25; Acts 7:42-43; Psalm 89:6-8; I Corinthians 8:5
      Certainly you are aware that God tells us there is One and Only One God and there is no other. No other God exists than the One and Only God Almighty who created everything that exists. The Lord Jesus is His highest Name.

      Member of the divine council or Holy Ones

      Psalm 82:1; 89:6-8 Member of the divine council or Holy Ones
      Certainly if one reads the Holy Scriptures they must read the whole book. There is only one God and the divine counsel is a counsel appointed by the One and Only Divine God and NOT a counsel of divine beings. It is a counsel of angels appointed by God. There is One and Only One Divine Being and that is God Almighty.

      Hosts of heaven

      2 Kings 23:4-5; 1 Kings 22: 19-23; 1 Chronicles 18:18-22; Luke 2:13
      The hosts of heaven is a host of angels and after we are taken up it will be a host of men and angels.

      Unclean spirits (Matthew 8:16; 10:1; 12:28, 43; Mark 1:23, 26, 27; 3:11)

      Beelzebul or Baal Zebub

      2 Kings 1:1-6; Matthew 12:34; Mark 3:3; Luke 11:15
      Certainly you jest. These are false gods that do not exist but made by men, OR another name for the Devil

      Besides angels and satan there are the following:

      Cherubim (Genesis 3:24)

      Sons of God (Genesis 6:2-4)

      Gabriel (Daniel 8:16; 9:20-21; Luke 1:19; 26)

      Unidentified radiant man (Daniel 10)
      These are all names for angels. Luke 1 26 In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, 27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. And the virgin's name was Mary

      People have called me Louis, Lou, Louie, Big Lou, Boss, Project Engineer, Teacher, Instructor, Dad, Father, Son, brother, friend, husband, etc. But I am NOT many persons, but one person. There are many names for the created angels, and God also has many Names.

      Michael one of the chief princes (Daniel 10:13) and Prince to the people of Daniel 10:21; 12:1)

      Michael the Archangel (Jude 1:9)
      Angel does not mean a created heavenly being, BUT a "heavenly being", "messenger from heaven". The messenger can be a created angel, OR the Creator Himself,

      Look in The Book. who appeared to Moses in the burning bush. Does the Book not say it was God who appeared to Moses in the bush.

      Exodus 3 ESV

      The Burning Bush


      3 Now Moses was keeping the flock of his father-in-law, Jethro, the priest of Midian, and he led his flock to the west side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 And the angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush. He looked, and behold, the bush was burning, yet it was not consumed. 3 And Moses said, “I will turn aside to see this great sight, why the bush is not burned.” 4 When the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called to him out of the bush, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here I am.” 5 Then he said, “Do not come near; take your sandals off your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground.” 6 And he said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God.

      NOTICE it says THE Angel of the Lord , NOT an angel of the Lord. The word The is used because this is the One and Only Angel of The Lord who is The Lord God Almighty Himself.

      The word Archangel means FIRST ANGEL. Who is The First ?

      Whose angels are the created angels ? Are they God's angels ?

      Revelation 12:7
      Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.
      Last edited by Lou Newton; April 29, 2020, 04:19 AM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Glen B Smith
        To:lou newton

        Thu, Apr 30 at 2:15 AM

        Lou, you speak from what you know, but you are unaware of what you do not know. You are a modern, western world English speaker without any formal biblical education. You read the Bible from this perspective and understand the texts as limited by your own background.

        ------------------------

        Lou posted - "This is NOT valid reasoning dear friend. For you claim since angels do not have sexual relations in heaven then fallen angels can not have sexual relations on earth. BUT since humans ALSO do not have sexual relations in heaven, by the same reasoning one would say that humans can not have sexual relations on earth also. I can testify, by my three children that is NOT true."


        glen – Not valid reasoning. Parallel reasoning would state, "by the same reasoning one would say that humans cannot have sexual relations on earth. Since you have three children means you can have children in heaven or that you cannot have children in heaven? 2+3= 0

        -------------------------

        Lou posted –

        "The sons of God here are obviously angels." Job 1:6 & 2:1


        glen –

        The text of Job 1, 2, & 38 does not mention angel(s). To use Job to define sons of God as angels is speculation.

        ------------------

        Lou posted – sons of God = angels

        Luke 20:36
        for they cannot die anymore, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

        Men become like angels in heaven and then are called the sons of God. If men become like angels in heaven, it is reasonable to think fallen angels become like men on earth in some ways. Men promote UP to heaven and angels FELL to earth. They are FALLEN angels. NOT heavenly angels anymore.


        glen – Why is it "reasonable to think fallen angels become like men on earth in some ways?"

        The angels, fallen or not, apparently do not die from old age or anything else, unlike mankind. They do not die even when cast down to planet Earth. They are chained in Tartarus (2 Peter 2:4) - not terminated. The process of procreation by humankind includes death. So why would a natural death not happen to the fallen angels? "Some ways" covers what is not revealed or recorded in scripture and justifies your speculation. You use "some ways" as a wild card that can mean whatever you want it to mean.


        So, in your reasoning, when cast out of heaven to Earth, God gave the fallen angels a penis and testicles (sperm), so that they could procreate by have sexual intercourse with the daughters of men which offended God who made the sexual intercourse possible. Accordingly, God used entrapment so He would have more of a reason to flood the world. Seems completely unreasonable.

        ------------------------

        If you knew just a little of the Hebrew language you would not make these mistakes.

        Angel in Hebrew is mal-ach meaning messenger.

        Sons of God and sons of gods in Hebrew is ben elohim.

        The Hebrew el is translated either as god or God.

        The Hebrew elohim is translated either as gods or God.

        There are about 200 times the English word "gods" occurs in the English version Old Testament. Some of these are referencing idols. However, many reference spiritual beings. The clear meaning of some of these texts is that gods (elohim) describe real beings.

        Neither the texts of the New and Old Testaments deny the existence of gods (elohim).



        A verse you are familiar with is Exodus 20:3

        “You shall have no other gods before me."

        Is YHWH saying "You shall have no other idols before me?"

        Is YHWH saying "You shall have no other false gods before me?"

        Is YHWH saying "You shall have no other made up gods before me?"

        Is YHWH saying "You shall have no other gods who are not gods before me?"

        No.

        What YHWH is saying is "You shall not have any other elohim before me."

        YHWH is an elohim and there are many other elohim in heaven and on Planet Earth.

        The appearance of the deceased Prophet Samuel to King Saul is described as an elohim.


        It is unfortunate that that English translations do not either transliterate elohim or use the word spirits or spiritual beings rather than gods and god when elohim or el in the Bible refers to a spiritual being other than YHWH. English translations mislead the reader when translating el and elohim.


        Modern thinking separated from the biblical language and culture will understand the text to match their modern ideas of monotheism which states there is not any other god or gods but YHWH. Spoken in their own language, every writer of an ancient biblical text would disagree with this statement.


        Sons of God in the New Testament refers to Christians rather than to members of the divine council. Accordingly, New Testament verses with the "sons of God" have no bearing on nearly all of the Old Testament texts and vice versa.
        Lou's Reply:

        Glen you write:
        Lou, you speak from what you know, but you are unaware of what you do not know. You are a modern, western world English speaker without any formal biblical education. You read the Bible from this perspective and understand the texts as limited by your own background.
        I believe what The Lord tells me Glen. That I can know all things through Christ alone. - “I Can Do All Things Through Christ Who Strengthens Me”- Philippians 4:13 Would that not include being able to see the truth ?

        Glen: you too do no know what you do not know.

        The key to being able to see, by you, is being educated by other men who claim to be able to see.

        I had the very best Teacher in the universe. That is The Holy Spirit. He is far superior to any mere man. Or any group of men, no matter how numerous or judged by other men as "teachers".

        Approaching God with humility AND asking Him to reveal truth to you is far more important than attending any school of men.

        Why did Jesus heal the blind in the Gospels more than any other miracle ?

        Jesus was trying to show us something very important.

        Everyone that came to Jesus and confessed they could not see and asked Him to give them sight, were given sight. There is not one exception this.

        Everyone that claimed they could see remained blind.

        The Pharisees all were educated in the very best schools. This was a handicap as most went to destruction. Very few sought the truth as they claimed they already knew the truth.

        Not even one disciple went to these schools. They were not handicapped by doing so.

        Paul went to these schools and later was knocked off of his horse by Jesus. He was also struck blind. Jesus was trying to show him that he was blind and could not see. This was mercy and grace for Jesus for do so. Paul later denounced his religious education and even being a Jew as DUNG. Dung is less than worthless, it is offensive.

        You appealed to your education. I appealed to The Holy Scriptures and The Holy Spirit revealing the truth to me simply because I confessed I was blind and asked Him to reveal the truth to me.

        I see that the later way is the way that The Holy Scriptures teaches us to go.

        This I know because the Holy Scriptures state this hundreds of places and His Holy Spirit has revealed his to me.

        There is One and Only One God. There is no other. There are many that men call gods. Satan was one of the sons of God. He was thrown out of heaven by Michael who was the only one more powerful than Satan.

        Mark 12 NIV

        The Greatest Commandment


        28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”

        29“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one


        Isaiah 43 NIV

        10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord,
        “and my servant whom I have chosen,
        so that you may know and believe me
        and understand that I am he.
        Before me no god was formed,
        nor will there be one after me.

        11 I, even I, am the Lord,
        and apart from me there is no savior.

        Your friend,

        Lou
        Last edited by Lou Newton; April 30, 2020, 02:02 AM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Lou Newton View Post

          [B]Lou's Reply:

          Glen you write:

          I believe what The Lord tells me Glen. That I can know all things through Christ alone. - “I Can Do All Things Through Christ Who Strengthens Me”- Philippians 4:13 Would that not include being able to see the truth ?

          Glen: you too do no know what you do not know.

          The key to being able to see, by you, is being educated by other men who claim to be able to see.

          I had the very best Teacher in the universe. That is The Holy Spirit. He is far superior to any mere man. Or any group of men, no matter how numerous or judged by other men as "teachers".

          Approaching God with humility AND asking Him to reveal truth to you is far more important than attending any school of men.

          Why did Jesus heal the blind in the Gospels more than any other miracle ?

          Jesus was trying to show us something very important.

          Everyone that came to Jesus and confessed they could not see and asked Him to give them sight, were given sight. There is not one exception this.

          Everyone that claimed they could see remained blind.

          The Pharisees all were educated in the very best schools. This was a handicap as most went to destruction. Very few sought the truth as they claimed they already knew the truth.

          Not even one disciple went to these schools. They were not handicapped by doing so.

          Paul went to these schools and later was knocked off of his horse by Jesus. He was also struck blind. Jesus was trying to show him that he was blind and could not see. This was mercy and grace for Jesus for do so. Paul later denounced his religious education and even being a Jew as DUNG. Dung is less than worthless, it is offensive.

          You appealed to your education. I appealed to The Holy Scriptures and The Holy Spirit revealing the truth to me simply because I confessed I was blind and asked Him to reveal the truth to me.

          I see that the later way is the way that The Holy Scriptures teaches us to go.

          This I know because the Holy Scriptures state this hundreds of places and His Holy Spirit has revealed his to me.

          There is One and Only One God. There is no other. There are many that men call gods. Satan was one of the sons of God. He was thrown out of heaven by Michael who was the only one more powerful than Satan.

          Mark 12 NIV

          The Greatest Commandment


          28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”

          29“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one


          Isaiah 43 NIV

          10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord,
          “and my servant whom I have chosen,
          so that you may know and believe me
          and understand that I am he.
          Before me no god was formed,
          nor will there be one after me.

          11 I, even I, am the Lord,
          and apart from me there is no savior.

          Your friend,

          Lou
          Catholics tend to have "other books" that they claim have truth the bible doesn't have, and Mormonism claims the same. Jehovah's witnesses also have their own literature that they say is equal or better to the bible. But in all of these books, they don't have the mathematical patterns and evidence therein produced by the bible. Ivan panin's work, and others (including Isaac Newton) have discovered astounding mathematical patterns in the bible, so many that it's well beyond coincidence. No other book has that evidence. So while men mean well, it's better to ask Jesus for help in reading the bible. I don't see how the bible supports any of the claims that brother Glenn puts forth. Another test is this: how are our churches doing? Does it look like they are winning the fight? It looks like they are completely defeated. The land is almost ready to devoured by the devil, so I would be very wary of whatever the church supports.

          Comment


          • #6
            Glen you wrote:

            Lou posted –

            "The sons of God here are obviously angels." Job 1:6 & 2:1


            glen –

            The text of Job 1, 2, & 38 does not mention angel(s). To use Job to define sons of God as angels is speculation.

            ------------------

            Lou posted – sons of God = angels

            Luke 20:36
            for they cannot die anymore, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

            Men become like angels in heaven and then are called the sons of God. If men become like angels in heaven, it is reasonable to think fallen angels become like men on earth in some ways. Men promote UP to heaven and angels FELL to earth. They are FALLEN angels. NOT heavenly angels anymore.


            glen – Why is it "reasonable to think fallen angels become like men on earth in some ways?"

            The angels, fallen or not, apparently do not die from old age or anything else, unlike mankind. They do not die even when cast down to planet Earth. They are chained in Tartarus (2 Peter 2:4) - not terminated. The process of procreation by humankind includes death. So why would a natural death not happen to the fallen angels? "Some ways" covers what is not revealed or recorded in scripture and justifies your speculation. You use "some ways" as a wild card that can mean whatever you want it to mean.


            So, in your reasoning, when cast out of heaven to Earth, God gave the fallen angels a penis and testicles (sperm), so that they could procreate by have sexual intercourse with the daughters of men which offended God who made the sexual intercourse possible. Accordingly, God used entrapment so He would have more of a reason to flood the world. Seems completely unreasonable.

            ------------------------

            If you knew just a little of the Hebrew language you would not make these mistakes.

            Angel in Hebrew is mal-ach meaning messenger.

            Sons of God and sons of gods in Hebrew is ben elohim.

            The Hebrew el is translated either as god or God.

            The Hebrew elohim is translated either as gods or God.

            There are about 200 times the English word "gods" occurs in the English version Old Testament. Some of these are referencing idols. However, many reference spiritual beings. The clear meaning of some of these texts is that gods (elohim) describe real beings.

            Neither the texts of the New and Old Testaments deny the existence of gods (elohim).



            A verse you are familiar with is Exodus 20:3

            “You shall have no other gods before me."

            Is YHWH saying "You shall have no other idols before me?"

            Is YHWH saying "You shall have no other false gods before me?"

            Is YHWH saying "You shall have no other made up gods before me?"

            Is YHWH saying "You shall have no other gods who are not gods before me?"

            No.

            What YHWH is saying is "You shall not have any other elohim before me."

            YHWH is an elohim and there are many other elohim in heaven and on Planet Earth.

            The appearance of the deceased Prophet Samuel to King Saul is described as an elohim.


            It is unfortunate that that English translations do not either transliterate elohim or use the word spirits or spiritual beings rather than gods and god when elohim or el in the Bible refers to a spiritual being other than YHWH. English translations mislead the reader when translating el and elohim.


            Modern thinking separated from the biblical language and culture will understand the text to match their modern ideas of monotheism which states there is not any other god or gods but YHWH. Spoken in their own language, every writer of an ancient biblical text would disagree with this statement.


            Sons of God in the New Testament refers to Christians rather than to members of the divine council. Accordingly, New Testament verses with the "sons of God" have no bearing on nearly all of the Old Testament texts and vice versa.
            Lou's reply;

            I would ask you these questions.Please answer yes or no if possible, or as brief as you can for now. We can elaborate later:

            1 - Do you believe that fallen angels can not be redeemed ?

            2 - Do you believe that the blood of Jesus can redeem any human no matter how sinful they are or were, if they confess their sin to Jesus ?

            3 - Do you believe that there will be a great tribulation before Jesus returns ?

            4 - Do you believe that Jesus will return to earth in His Revelation ?

            5 - Do you believe that Satan will try to destroy all of God's people and even all the human race before Jesus returns ?

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