Evangelistic Citizenship - Paul Sanchez

[Baruch]

[Here is a short email exchange between Lou and me. Lou thought it would make a good topic on the forum, so I'm posting it here. I hope it sparks some discussions, and answers some of those important, nagging questions -- the latter of which I seem to have so many, bless the Lord. =)]

Lou, would you mind taking a look at this [video]? I'd like to talk with you about the subject. I will be praying about this.

I have been thinking about my citizenship much differently than Paul Sanchez expresses it. I'm wondering if his interpretation is sound, or if he is missing the higher meaning. Frankly, I have a lot of trouble with it as it suggests unflinchingly that we should submit to the likes of Hitler, Obama, Muhammad, whoever can seize power - because they could not seize power unless God ordains it. He uses Peter's words in 1Pe 2:13-17 as his base, and the historical fact that Peter wrote this while Nero was in power.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7-Cy7bRnQM

[Baruch]

[Reply from Lou]

Hi Barry,

1st of all, I will say I do not agree fully or disagree fully with what he says.

The letter of the law brings death, but the Spirit of the law brings life.

We are never told to follow The Scriptures, but we are told to follow His Holy Spirit. Of course His Spirit will always agree with His Holy Scriptures, but in a way and time that only The Author could know.

John 5:39-40
39 You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me,
40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

Jesus speaks the above to the pharisees. They tried to follow the scriptures right down to tithing the least plant in their garden, but they were lost.

I have never been directed by The Holy Spirit to preach this sermon and do not think I ever will be. He gives one side while neglecting even more important issues.

As far as honor and respect: we should show respect to the least among all men. I should not look down on the homeless in the street. I would be far more concerned with someone who looked down on a homeless person who had very serious issues, than I would someone who failed to show respect to Obama.

1 Peter 2:13-25 - Submission to Rulers and Masters
13 Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority,
14 or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right.

They are sent by The Lord to punish those who do WRONG, they have no authority to punish a man who does right.

15 For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men.
16 Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God.
17 Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king.

We are to do good, not to do evil when the King tells us to do evil. We are to show respect to EVERYONE, not just rulers. Certainly Jesus showed more respect to the poor, the devil possessed, the blind, the lame, than He did the rulers of Israel ( the pharisees)

Jesus spoke this to these rulers:

Seven Woes
23:1-7pp -- Mk 12:38,39; Lk 20:45,46 23:37-39pp -- Lk 13:34,35
1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples:
2 "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.
3 So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
4 They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
5"Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long;
6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues;
7 they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them 'Rabbi.'
8 "But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers.
9 And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.
10 Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ.
11 The greatest among you will be your servant.
12 For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
13 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.
15 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert,and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.
16 "Woe to you, blind guides! You say, 'If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.'
17 You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred?
18 You also say, 'If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.'
19 You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred?
20 Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it.
21 And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it.
22 And he who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it.
23 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
25 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.
26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
27 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean.
28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
29"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous.
30 And you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'
31 So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets.
32 Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!
33 "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
34Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.
35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
36 I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.
37"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
38 Look, your house is left to you desolate.
39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.' "

1 Peter 2:18-25
18 Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.
19 For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God.
20 But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God.
21 To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.
22 "He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth."
23 When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly.
24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed.
25 For you were like sheep going astray, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

Rulers of men are not our overseers, but The Lord is.

David did not try to show disrespect to Saul, but he did not fully obey him either. He would have been dead if he had done so.

Moses certainly rebuked the rulers of Egypt. Daniel did not go out of his way to disrespect the King of Babylon who saw the writing on the wall. But he did not show him much honor either:

Daniel 5:17-28
17 Then Daniel answered the king, "You may keep your gifts for yourself and give your rewards to someone else. Nevertheless, I will read the writing for the king and tell him what it means.
18 "O king, the Most High God gave your father Nebuchadnezzar sovereignty and greatness and glory and splendor.
19Because of the high position he gave him, all the peoples and nations and men of every language dreaded and feared him. Those the king wanted to put to death, he put to death; those he wanted to spare, he spared; those he wanted to promote, he promoted; and those he wanted to humble, he humbled.
20 But when his heart became arrogant and hardened with pride, he was deposed from his royal throne and stripped of his glory.
21 He was driven away from people and given the mind of an animal; he lived with the wild donkeys and ate grass like cattle; and his body was drenched with the dew of heaven, until he acknowledged that the Most High God is sovereign over the kingdoms of men and sets over them anyone he wishes.
22 "But you his son, O Belshazzar, have not humbled yourself, though you knew all this.
23 Instead, you have set yourself up against the Lord of heaven. You had the goblets from his temple brought to you, and you and your nobles, your wives and your concubines drank wine from them. You praised the gods of silver and gold, of bronze, iron, wood and stone, which cannot see or hear or understand. But you did not honor the God who holds in his hand your life and all your ways.
24 Therefore he sent the hand that wrote the inscription.
25 "This is the inscription that was written: MENE, MENE, TEKEL, PARSIN+F25 ARAMAIC "UPARSIN" (THAT IS, "AND PARSIN")+E
26 "This is what these words mean: Mene": God has numbered the days of your reign and brought it to an end.
27 Tekel": You have been weighed on the scales and found wanting.
28 Peres": Your kingdom is divided and given to the Medes and Persians."


Psalm 137:17-24
17 How precious to me are your thoughts, O God! How vast is the sum of them!
18 Were I to count them, they would outnumber the grains of sand. When I awake, I am still with you.
19 If only you would slay the wicked, O God! Away from me, you bloodthirsty men!
20 They speak of you with evil intent; your adversaries misuse your name.
21 Do I not hate those who hate you, O LORD, and abhort hose who rise up against you?
22 I have nothing but hatred for them; I count them my enemies.
23 Search me, O God, and know my heart; test me and know my anxious thoughts.
24 See if there is any offensive way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.


This scripture is also in the Bible.

Please let me know your thoughts about these things.

Lou

[Baruch]

[More from Lou]

Here are some more thoughts about this:

Here is what God told a man to do to a ruler of Israel:

Ehud
12 Once again the Israelites did evil in the eyes of the LORD, and because they did this evil the LORD gave Eglon king of Moab power over Israel.
13Getting the Ammonites and Amalekites to join him, Eglon came and attacked Israel, and they took possession of the City of Palms.
14 The Israelites were subject to Eglon king of Moab for eighteen years.
15 Again the Israelites cried out to the LORD, and he gave them a deliverer--Ehud, a left-handed man, the son of Gera the Benjamite. The Israelites sent him with tribute to Eglon king of Moab.
16 Now Ehud had made a double-edged sword about a foot and a halflong, which he strapped to his right thigh under his clothing.
17 He presented the tribute to Eglon king of Moab, who was a very fat man.
18 After Ehud had presented the tribute, he sent on their way the men who had carried it.
19 At the idols near Gilgal he himself turned back and said, "I have a secret message for you, O king." The king said, "Quiet!" And all his attendants left him.
20Ehud then approached him while he was sitting alone in the upper room of his summer palace and said, "I have a message from God for you." As the king rose from his seat,
21 Ehud reached with his left hand, drew the sword from his right thigh and plunged it into the king's belly.
22 Even the handle sank in after the blade, which came out his back. Ehud did not pull the sword out, and the fat closed in over it.
23 Then Ehud went out to the porch; he shut the doors of the upper room behind him and locked them.
24 After he had gone, the servants came and found the doors of the upper room locked. They said, "He must be relieving himself in the inner room of the house."
25 They waited to the point of embarrassment, but when he did not open the doors of the room, they took a key and unlocked them. There they saw their lord fallen to the floor, dead.
26 While they waited, Ehud got away. He passed by the idols and escaped to Seirah.
27 When he arrived there, he blew a trumpet in the hill country of Ephraim, and the Israelites went down with him from the hills, with him leading them.
28 "Follow me," he ordered, "for the LORD has given Moab,your enemy, into your hands." So they followed him down and, taking possession of the fords of the Jordan that led to Moab, they allowed no one to cross over.
29 At that time they struck down about ten thousand Moabites, all vigorous and strong; not a man escaped.

30 That day Moab was made subject to Israel, and the land had peace for eighty years.

No man can follow the Scriptures. He will not know if it is time to kill or time for peace.

We read the scriptures to come to know The Lord Jesus, but then we follow His Holy Spirit.

[Baruch]

[From me]

Thanks so much, Lou. I read both of these. I recognize the truth in your replies. I also recognized the truth in what Paul Sanchez said; but I also know there are stipulations of justice, especially in Romans 13, the spirit of which is violated by evil rulers. One man said an easy test of Romans 13 is to plug "Hitler" in the appropriate places and see how it reads: it is ludicrous to assert Hitler was a minister of God, whose many evil decrees should have been obeyed. But as you rightly put forth, there is a proper time for everything, and we must rely on the Holy Spirit to tell us when and what.

It grows late. I will be thinking and praying about your replies, and rereading them. I hope to have more to say. I really appreciate your consideration on this matter. Thank you again.

[Steve Hollander]

Very interesting topic. I didn't listen to the video but I got a lot out of Lou's responses. Chock full of revelation. Thanks for posting this.

[Lou Newton]

Very interesting topic. I didn't listen to the video but I got a lot out of Lou's responses. Chock full of revelation. Thanks for posting this.

Thanks Steve for the very kind reply.

A quote from my reply is below:

As far as honor and respect: we should show respect to the least among all men. I should not look down on the homeless in the street. I would be far more concerned with someone who looked down on a homeless person who had very serious issues, than I would someone who failed to show respect to Obama.

We have scripture to back up this remark:

James 2
Favoritism Forbidden

1 My brothers, as believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ, don't show favoritism.
2 Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in shabby clothes also comes in.
3 If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, "Here's a good seat for you," but say to the poor man, "You stand there" or "Sit on the floor by my feet,"
4 have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judgeswith evil thoughts?
5 Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him?
6 But you have insulted the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court?
7 Are they not the ones who are slandering the noble name of him to whom you belong?
8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right.
9 But if you show favoritism,you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers.
10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.
11 For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.
12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom,
13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!

James 1 Trials and Temptations

2 Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds,
3because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance.
4Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.
5 If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.
6 But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind.
7 That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord;
8 he is a double-minded man, unstablein all he does.
9 The brother in humble circumstances ought to take pride in his high position.
10 But the one who is rich should take pride in his low position, because he will pass away like a wild flower.
11 For the sun rises with scorching heat and withers the plant; its blossom falls and its beauty is destroyed. In the same way, the rich man will fade away even while he goes about his business.

When we consider scripture, we must consider all of scripture.

Lou Newton

[Fisherman]

Can only pop in for a bit. Been pleasantly busy these last few weeks.

I have a big problem with what Mr. Sanchez is saying. I appreciate his intent, but if what he is teaching is taken literally, then essentially the origins of our (once great) country was founded upon the abject disobedience to the very Scriptures he mentions.

"That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

Just my thoughts.

[Lou Newton]

Can only pop in for a bit. Been pleasantly busy these last few weeks.

I have a big problem with what Mr. Sanchez is saying. I appreciate his intent, but if what he is teaching is taken literally, then essentially the origins of our (once great) country was founded upon the abject disobedience to the very Scriptures he mentions.

"That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

Just my thoughts.

Hi Tom, so good to hear from you. Hope you are doing well.

Amen to your reply. The Declaration of Independence was also one of my first thoughts as I watched the video.

King George claimed that he had the right to govern the British Empire, and he claimed that was given to him by God. He used the same scriptures as Sanchez uses to make that claim.

In fact, that is why the King of England and the church of England opposed the translation of the Bible into English. Since the king ruled the nation and the church. He appointed the leaders of the church and they simply backed up his claim by telling the people that the Bible agreed with the King.

This made the King both King and Priest. No man has been given that authority by God, except for the Lord Jesus Himself. Saul had the kingdom taken away from him for also preforming the duties of a priest instead of waiting for Samuel. David was a prophet, but since he was King, he was not allowed to hold the office of prophet and another was appointed by God.

The King of England and the Pope both claimed to be both Ruler and Prophet or Priest. They both claim to be Christ by this claim, for only Christ has this authority.

God separates the authority given to mere men. David was King, Nathan was prophet. Saul was King, Samuel was Prophet. One man is POTUS, but other men make the laws. When Obama, who is POTUS also makes laws, he is declaring himself to be Christ. We know that any man that makes this claim is NOT from God.

Authority is GIVEN by God, NOT TAKEN by men. Authority was GIVEN to Washington, they literally had to beg him to take it. But he had NO AUTHORITY TO MAKE THE LAWS. He always respected the US Congress and was very careful to request their permission even when it was not needed. The US Congress often told Washington that the decision he was asking about was already given to him by his office. Washington NEVER tried to buck the US Congress as Obama is doing.

David did not TAKE authority even though he had already been anointed by God through Samuel. Saul was trying to hang onto his office of King by trying to kill David. Even when Saul came into the very cave David was hiding in with his men, to have a bowel movement, David did not kill Saul and take the office of King. David waited for the office to be given to him by God.

When William Tyndale asked the leader of the Church of England permission to translate the Bible into English so everyone could study it for themselves, and come closer to The Lord, he was denied permission. During this conversation Tyndale could see, that the so called Archbishop, knew little about the Holy Scriptures. He ended the conversation by saying, " I defy the Pope and all his laws, if God spares my life, I will make a boy that driveth the plough know more of the scriptures than thou dost"

The King and the Archbishop tried to have Tyndale arrested for his work. He fled to the Continent to finish his work. The Archbishop sent men to kill Tyndale but he was able to stay out of their grasp many times. Finally the Archbishop told the Pope about Tyndale so that The Pope would have him put in prison and then strangled and his dead body burnt at the stake.

Before he was murdered by The Pope, Tyndale was able to send thousands of copies of his New Testament to England. The printing press had been invented and it was used to print his NT. The King and the Archbishop were not able to keep Tyndale's NT out of England and the people were reading it even though anyone caught with a copy would be killed.

The Archbishop was so foolish that he bought a whole printing of thousands of copies of Tyndale's Bible and had them destroyed. Tyndale used the money to print twice as many copies as the Archbishop destroyed.

This forced the King and Archbishop to make their own English translation. They both feared the Tyndale translation and the later Geneva translation because both made it clear that Christians were to obey God rather than Kings.

So the King authorized a translation of the Bible to be made in English. The problem with this was that no one in the Church of England knew Hebrew or Greek nearly as well as Tyndale had. So they simply copied his work word for word many places and changed it when it suited their purpose of claiming the King had authority from God. This became the Authorized version, or the King James version.

So what can we learn from all this:

First The Pope was in authority of the whole church. He claimed this authority had been given to him by God.

BUT King Henry VIII rebelled from the Pope because the Pope would not do as he wished. The King formed his own church, The Church of England.

Now if no one has the right to disobey The King of England, then the King of England had no right to disobey the Pope. The King of England broke the very rule he claimed gave him authority from God.

The very King and Church of England had used their power to murder anyone who disagreed with them. The KJV of the Bible was made by this same King and Church of England. If one reads it, the verses in it give far more authority to the leaders than other translations. The men that made the KJV did NOT have a total knowledge of the Hebrew and Greek. They copied Tyndale but did NOT give him credit for his work. That is simply stealing. BUT they did not copy Tyndale when his translation did not suit their purposes.

Tyndale gave up all his land and property when he started this work. He ended up also giving up his very natural life. The King of England and the leaders of the church of England gave up nothing. But used their translation to hold onto their position, power and wealth.

Jesus said, those that hang onto their life will lose it, and those that give up their life will gain it. It seems to me that the King and Church leaders hung onto their life while Tyndale gave up his life. I choose to follow the example set by Tyndale.

The King and Church of England persecuted many men who were called of God to preach His gospel. John Bunyan (1628-1688) was a tinker. A tinker repaired tin pots and pans so was one of the few that had permission to travel from town to town. Bunyan had read the Bible for himself and and was aware that the Church of England was not preaching the true Gospel of Christ. So he preached the true Gospel of Christ as he went from town to town. He was put is prison for his preaching. Every night as he slept in his cell, he had a dream, and he wrote down that dream when he awoke. Those dreams made up the book Pilgrims Progress. It is the most printed book in the English language only exceeded by The Bible itself.

The Pilgrims read the Geneva Translation of the Bible and so obeyed God instead of the Church of England. Many were put in prison just as Bunyan was. They became a great irritation to the Church leaders and the King. So the King gave them land in the new america that had been discovered. They sailed on the Mayflower and brought the Geneva Bible with them. This was the start of our nation.

I read the history of the Pilgrims in "The Light and the Glory". I found it IMPOSSIBLE to deny that The Lord Jesus preformed miracle after miracle for them. They tried to obey the King whenever possible. But they obeyed God rather than the King.

Lou Newton

[Baruch]

That was better than Readers Digest. I was stimulated to look into the Geneva Bible again. Previously the olde English riddled with misspellings turned me off.

There is a public domain modernization project that endeavors to be faithful to the translation here: http://www.genevabible.org/Geneva.html.

What you said, Lou, about King James and Popes being usurpers has shined a light on darkness. The tsars of Russia also took upon themselves the mantle of the high priest of their orthodox church. This seems to be a common ploy of tyrants, and there seems to be a high occurrence in nations that establish state religions.

[Baruch]

Can only pop in for a bit. Been pleasantly busy these last few weeks.

I have a big problem with what Mr. Sanchez is saying. I appreciate his intent, but if what he is teaching is taken literally, then essentially the origins of our (once great) country was founded upon the abject disobedience to the very Scriptures he mentions.

"That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

Just my thoughts.

This was my concern, too, Tom. It calls into question the foundation of this country, and our right to defend it as stated in the founding documents. Thanks for confirming my thought.

Because this government has complete control over the brainwashing apparatus which is used to manufacture the appearance of consent, then this worries me: "That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government." Weaponization of our language, and brainwashing, and the prevalent view that the US Constitution should be interpreted as a modern document (and/or modernized through amendments), and the potus having his forte in Constitutional Law...all evil ingredients for a coup soup.