Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Is water baptism necessary to being saved

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Is water baptism necessary to being saved

    Originally posted by redsoxmaloney View Post
    I was speaking to someone today who said the theif on the cross was not baptised in water because he was still under old testament law and Jesus hadn't died yet. She says she's been a Christian for 30 yrs. But my sinfulness comes in when I want to rebuke it, and not realize I'm the same way. It reminds me that I really have a long way to go. Pray for me that I am not afraid to tell the truth, and tell it in love.
    We grow by simply praying and continually asking The Lord to guide us and cause us to do His will. We confess that we are blind and He then will give us sight.
    Of course The Lord said the law will never be done away with so the law has never changed and never will change. Those that chose grace to save them are then saved by grace. Those that choose to law to save them, of course can not be saved by the law.

    Ephesians 4New International Version (NIV)

    Unity and Maturity in the Body of Christ

    4 As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. 2 Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3 Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called;5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

    There are not several bodies of Christ. There is but ONE true church.

    There are not several faiths that can save, but ONE faith and that is trusting in Jesus to save you, NOT trusting in water baptism to save.

    There is but ONE BAPTISM. So now baptism in water is mentioned in the Holy Scriptures and so is the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Any person who is truly looking for the truth should be able to see that surely the baptism of water can not compare to the baptism of His Holy Spirit. There is but ONE Baptism that is necessary to be saved and that is to have His Holy Spirit living inside of you.

    Water baptism was simply a symbol that one was confessing their sinfulness and their wanting to be washed clean. BUT the symbol of water can not clean the soul.

    NOTICE also that there is but ONE Spirit, not three. ONE God, not three.

    If one has given their life to The Lord Jesus and confessed their sin to Him and He is living inside of them, then what could being dipped in water possibly add to His presence.

    Some may seek water, I will seek The Lord Jesus.

    Water is part of His creation and it can not save. Water can clean the flesh, but it can not cleanse our soul or bring life to our spirit.

    We are to worship the Creator NOT His creation.

    How could being baptized in water save ? Does water have some magical power ? That is believing in witchcraft.

    OR does someone claim that when one OBEYS the Lord by being baptized in water it saves. That is being saved by obedience, OR being saved by obeying a law. The law can not save, as written in The Book above, there is ONE FAITH. That is FAITH in Jesus.

    Faith is water can not save. Faith is obedience can not save. Faith is some group (church) or faith is some leader can not save.

    There is ONE FAITH and that is faith is Christ, OR TRUSTING in Christ to save us. As we are told in Colossians:

    Colossians 1

    15 Christ is the exact likeness of the unseen God. He existed before God made anything at all, and, in fact, 16Christ himself is the Creator who made everything in heaven and earth, the things we can see and the things we can’t; the spirit world with its kings and kingdoms, its rulers and authorities; all were made by Christ for his own use and glory. 17He was before all else began and it is his power that holds everything together. 18He is the Head of the body made up of his people —that is, his Church —which he began; and he is the Leader of all those who arise from the dead, so that he is first in everything; 19 for God wanted all of himself to be in his Son.

    20It was through what his Son did that God cleared a path for everything to come to him —all things in heaven and on earth —for Christ’s death on the cross has made peace with God for all by his blood. 21 This includes you who were once so far away from God. You were his enemies and hated him and were separated from him by your evil thoughts and actions, yet now he has brought you back as his friends. 22 He has done this through the death on the cross of his own human body, and now as a result Christ has brought you into the very presence of God, and you are standing there before him with nothing left against you —nothing left that he could even chide you for; 23 the only condition is that you fully believe the Truth, standing in it steadfast and firm, strong in the Lord, convinced of the Good News that Jesus died for you, and never shifting from trusting him to save you. This is the wonderful news that came to each of you and is now spreading all over the world. And I, Paul, have the joy of telling it to others.

    The word ONLY is an adverb from the word ONE. There is ONE condition to being saved.

    Is that ONE condition to be dipped in water. Or is that one condition to trust Jesus to save you ?

    If water baptism was necessary to be saved, then why is it not even mentioned in the passage above ?

    Water baptism can not save, just as being circumcised in the flesh can not save. ( but we must be circumcised in our hearts). Also having the elders lay hands on you can not save you. Joining some group ( church ) can not save anyone. ( but everyone that is saved is part of the true Church ) No man can make anyone part of The true church of The Lord Jesus. Only The Lord can make you part of His church.

    Some may trust in water, I will trust in Jesus.

    I believe The Creator is much greater than anything that He created.

    Yes, one MUST BE BAPTIZED TO BE SAVED. But that ONE baptism is the baptism of His Holy Spirit.

    Lou Newton

  • #2
    Originally posted by Lou Newton View Post

    Of course The Lord said the law will never be done away with so the law has never changed and never will change. Those that chose grace to save them are then saved by grace. Those that choose to law to save them, of course can not be saved by the law.

    Ephesians 4New International Version (NIV)

    Unity and Maturity in the Body of Christ

    4 As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. 2 Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3 Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called;5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

    There are not several bodies of Christ. There is but ONE true church.

    There are not several faiths that can save, but ONE faith and that is trusting in Jesus to save you, NOT trusting in water baptism to save.

    There is but ONE BAPTISM. So now baptism in water is mentioned in the Holy Scriptures and so is the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Any person who is truly looking for the truth should be able to see that surely the baptism of water can not compare to the baptism of His Holy Spirit. There is but ONE Baptism that is necessary to be saved and that is to have His Holy Spirit living inside of you.

    Water baptism was simply a symbol that one was confessing their sinfulness and their wanting to be washed clean. BUT the symbol of water can not clean the soul.

    NOTICE also that there is but ONE Spirit, not three. ONE God, not three.

    If one has given their life to The Lord Jesus and confessed their sin to Him and He is living inside of them, then what could being dipped in water possibly add to His presence.

    Some may seek water, I will seek The Lord Jesus.

    Water is part of His creation and it can not save. Water can clean the flesh, but it can not cleanse our soul or bring life to our spirit.

    We are to worship the Creator NOT His creation.

    How could being baptized in water save ? Does water have some magical power ? That is believing in witchcraft.

    OR does someone claim that when one OBEYS the Lord by being baptized in water it saves. That is being saved by obedience, OR being saved by obeying a law. The law can not save, as written in The Book above, there is ONE FAITH. That is FAITH in Jesus.

    Faith is water can not save. Faith is obedience can not save. Faith is some group (church) or faith is some leader can not save.

    There is ONE FAITH and that is faith is Christ, OR TRUSTING in Christ to save us. As we are told in Colossians:

    Colossians 1

    15 Christ is the exact likeness of the unseen God. He existed before God made anything at all, and, in fact, 16Christ himself is the Creator who made everything in heaven and earth, the things we can see and the things we can’t; the spirit world with its kings and kingdoms, its rulers and authorities; all were made by Christ for his own use and glory. 17He was before all else began and it is his power that holds everything together. 18He is the Head of the body made up of his people —that is, his Church —which he began; and he is the Leader of all those who arise from the dead, so that he is first in everything; 19 for God wanted all of himself to be in his Son.

    20It was through what his Son did that God cleared a path for everything to come to him —all things in heaven and on earth —for Christ’s death on the cross has made peace with God for all by his blood. 21 This includes you who were once so far away from God. You were his enemies and hated him and were separated from him by your evil thoughts and actions, yet now he has brought you back as his friends. 22 He has done this through the death on the cross of his own human body, and now as a result Christ has brought you into the very presence of God, and you are standing there before him with nothing left against you —nothing left that he could even chide you for; 23 the only condition is that you fully believe the Truth, standing in it steadfast and firm, strong in the Lord, convinced of the Good News that Jesus died for you, and never shifting from trusting him to save you. This is the wonderful news that came to each of you and is now spreading all over the world. And I, Paul, have the joy of telling it to others.

    The word ONLY is an adverb from the word ONE. There is ONE condition to being saved.

    Is that ONE condition to be dipped in water. Or is that one condition to trust Jesus to save you ?

    If water baptism was necessary to be saved, then why is it not even mentioned in the passage above ?

    Water baptism can not save, just as being circumcised in the flesh can not save. ( but we must be circumcised in our hearts). Also having the elders lay hands on you can not save you. Joining some group ( church ) can not save anyone. ( but everyone that is saved is part of the true Church ) No man can make anyone part of The true church of The Lord Jesus. Only The Lord can make you part of His church.

    Some may trust in water, I will trust in Jesus.

    I believe The Creator is much greater than anything that He created.

    Yes, one MUST BE BAPTIZED TO BE SAVED. But that ONE baptism is the baptism of His Holy Spirit.

    Lou Newton
    Do you remember what translation that is? The NIV isn't quite as clear as that.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by redsoxmaloney View Post

      Do you remember what translation that is? The NIV isn't quite as clear as that.
      It is The Living Bible. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...+1&version=TLB

      Comment


      • #4
        Thanks Barry for your reply on the other thread were I posted this about water baptism. Truth is certainly elusive because of our sinfulness and God's ways are so much higher than ours. So I do not claim to have arrived at the whole truth about this subject, but only like you seek to discuss it to have more information about it.

        Baruch posted this reply on the great Quotes thread :

        Lou, I like the new group of quotes and agree with them.

        Tom, you're right in calling out how difficult it can be to consider ourselves when correcting others. This is definitely one of the beams in my eye.

        I have some comments on water baptism, since it came up.

        Water baptism has value and untapped riches, as do all of God's words. I heard a very good study of it. It is a declaration or profession. Our declarations don't deliver us, God delivers us. Our declarations are an outworking of our faith in Him as the giver. God is the primal cause, the giver, and we are recipients according to His grace and purpose. I'm suspicious of anyone who tries to legislate my belief or obedience: not because I wish to do whatever I want, but because men are always trying to control others through legislation (legalism).

        When one first hears the gospel, and his darkened understanding is enlightened, faith comes and there is hope, and a realization: from this day I will serve the Lord, and learn His ways, and be of good use to Him. This seems the ideal moment for a water baptism with regards to a new convert and the significance of such a profession of dedication.

        It's very interesting how the symbolism of water baptism mirrors circumcision of the flesh under the old covenant. I cannot write about it, I just recall from the study there are strong, remarkable parallels in the scriptures. Circumcision and baptism were/are signs to set apart God's people. They're a demarcation of new dedication, new heart, newness of spirit, and changing one's allegiance over to God, and walking under His governance, and in His army against the kingdom of Satan.

        Satan knows the importance of pledges of allegiance. He has people reciting pledges all the time to bring men under the bondage of a creature--ultimately, of the dead. One cannot have two allegiances. Loyalty to two is no loyalty. (Deep subject. All I'm trying to say is any agreement we may have with others in this world must be subordinate to Christ, who is our head. Man and devil try to insert themselves in between, and steer us away from Christ. Often it is very subtle and crafty.)

        An interesting example of the usefulness of water baptism is it could serve as an entry into the congregation, e.g. before being allowed to take communion. The congregation is an intimate gathering of the body of Christ, which shares in His sufferings and blessings. The church today is very lax, letting many wander through its gates with nary a consideration. Government is good, when done well. More and more of the church of the past two generations has obviously just been kinda progressively wingin' it to stay socially neutral and relevant.

        I like to think about the deep things of God. He is so rich in wisdom. He made everything for His glory and our benefit, even water baptism.
        I have been thinking about your reply ever since you posted it. It is food for thought and you made many good comments in it.

        Here are some things that came to my mind about water baptism that your post inspired.

        Matthew 3
        11“I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

        Mark 1
        7 And this was his message: “After me comes the one more powerful than I, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie. 8I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

        Mark 1
        15 The people were waiting expectantly and were all wondering in their hearts if John might possibly be the Messiah. 16 John answered them all, “I baptize you with water. But one who is more powerful than I will come, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

        Acts 1New International Version (NIV)

        Jesus Taken Up Into Heaven


        1 In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach 2 until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen.3 After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God. 4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

        I noticed several things in these passages:

        1 - water baptism seems to be a sign of repentance only, not salvation. (“I baptize you with water for repentance ) and The Lord Himself tells us that the disciples, who some were baptized in water for they were John's disciples first and others, or even many, may have been baptized in water as a sign of their repentance. BUT they were not yet saved because they had not received The Holy Spirit. For The Lord told them, 5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.” But much of the church uses water baptism as a sign of salvation ( or even worse necessary event to have salvation).

        2 - The scriptures tells us this: 8I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”
        I noticed that it does NOT say that Jesus will baptize with water and The Holy Spirit. Plus there is not one account in the Holy Scriptures of Jesus baptizing with water to my memory. There must be a reason for this, for God has a reason for everything He does.

        John's purpose was to prepare the way for Jesus, or prepare the people to receive Jesus. Repentance certainly prepares our hearts to hear from The Lord.

        But it may be that Jesus did not want to take the focus off of the baptism of His Holy Spirit with making water part of it. Men can not focus on two things at once. Jesus may have wanted us to focus of His Holy Spirit for no man will enter heaven without having His Holy Spirit. Even more important The Lord wanted all to know that water can not save, but only His Holy Spirit can bring life to a dead spirit.

        Then we also have this account:
        Acts 10New International Version (NIV)

        Cornelius Calls for Peter


        10 At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion in what was known as the Italian Regiment. 2 He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly. 3 One day at about three in the afternoon he had a vision.He distinctly saw an angel of God, who came to him and said, “Cornelius!”

        4 Cornelius stared at him in fear. “What is it, Lord?” he asked.

        The angel answered, “Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God. 5 Now send men to Joppa to bring back a man named Simon who is called Peter. 6 He is staying with Simon the tanner, whose house is by the sea.”

        7 When the angel who spoke to him had gone, Cornelius called two of his servants and a devout soldier who was one of his attendants. 8 He told them everything that had happened and sent them to Joppa.

        .............................................

        17 While Peter was wondering about the meaning of the vision, the men sent by Cornelius found out where Simon’s house was and stopped at the gate. 18 They called out, asking if Simon who was known as Peter was staying there.

        19 While Peter was still thinking about the vision, the Spirit said to him, “Simon, three men are looking for you. 20 So get up and go downstairs. Do not hesitate to go with them, for I have sent them.”

        21 Peter went down and said to the men, “I’m the one you’re looking for. Why have you come?”

        22 The men replied, “We have come from Cornelius the centurion. He is a righteous and God-fearing man, who is respected by all the Jewish people. A holy angel told him to ask you to come to his house so that he could hear what you have to say.” 23 Then Peter invited the men into the house to be his guests.

        Peter at Cornelius’s House


        The next day Peter started out with them, and some of the believers from Joppa went along. 24 The following day he arrived in Caesarea. Cornelius was expecting them and had called together his relatives and close friends. 25As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence. 26 But Peter made him get up. “Stand up,” he said, “I am only a man myself.”

        27 While talking with him, Peter went inside and found a large gathering of people. 28He said to them: “You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with or visit a Gentile. But God has shown me that I should not call anyone impure or unclean. 29 So when I was sent for, I came without raising any objection. May I ask why you sent for me?”

        30 Cornelius answered: “Three days ago I was in my house praying at this hour, at three in the afternoon. Suddenly a man in shining clothes stood before me 31 and said, ‘Cornelius, God has heard your prayer and remembered your gifts to the poor. 32 Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter. He is a guest in the home of Simon the tanner, who lives by the sea.’ 33 So I sent for you immediately, and it was good of you to come. Now we are all here in the presence of God to listen to everything the Lord has commanded you to tell us.”

        34 Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right. 36 You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. 37 You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached— 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.



        39 “We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a cross, 40 but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen.41He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42 He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. 43 All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

        44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.

        Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

        I noticed long ago that The Holy Spirit was given to Cornelius before they were baptized in water. That means that salvation did not come with their baptism in water, but salvation came when they humbled themselves before God and surrendered their life to Him.

        The Lord was showing us all that no man can baptize with The Holy Spirit, or even cause such an event. It is ONLY The Lord Jesus that can judge a man's heart and then baptize him in His Holy Spirit.

        The Lord did it this way for a reason. He wanted to reveal that baptism in water does NOT save, and He wanted to reveal that being baptized in His Holy Spirit does save.

        John was certainly sent by God. BUT even John himself said:

        John 3

        27 To this John replied, “A person can receive only what is given them from heaven. 28 You yourselves can testify that I said, ‘I am not the Messiah but am sent ahead of him.’ 29 The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend who attends the bridegroom waits and listens for him, and is full of joy when he hears the bridegroom’s voice. That joy is mine, and it is now complete. 30He must become greater; I must become less.”

        Even John knew that the focus must be taken off of him, and water baptism, so that the people would focus on The Lord and His Holy Spirit instead.

        Flesh seeks the natural, and only the spirit seeks the spiritual.

        That is why John died and was taken up. He had to become less here on earth, but of course became much more in heaven.

        Even the disciples were not yet saved and did not have the Holy Spirit after walking with Jesus for three years.

        WHY ?

        I think this is because they had no reason to seek The Lord in the spirit. They had access to the Lord in the flesh. They did not have to wrestle with was His response from Him or not.

        BUT there are disadvantages to this, and these are why The Lord wanted to give us all His Holy Spirit instead:

        1 - When Christ was in the flesh, He had the limitations of the flesh ( He was a little lower than the angels in this way) because God humbled Himself to be born of a woman and become a man. He could not be with every believer at once all over the earth when He was in the flesh.

        2 - Flesh can not commune with spirit. Flesh can only commune with flesh. His Holy Spirit can commune with our spirit. That is communion on a much deeper level. That is why God breathed the breath of life into Adam ( man). So we would then be created in His image and could commune with Him in the spirit.

        3 - The natural world is going to be done away with. No flesh can enter heaven. So we have to be born again of the spirit, with the baptism of His Holy Spirit so that we can be with Jesus forever.

        NOTICE THIS:

        John 20

        21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.

        Know we know that the disciples received The Holy Spirit that very day. Because the ONE who spoke, let there be light, made the light come at that very instant. When Jesus told the stormy waters to be calm, they calmed so fast it scared the disciples. Jesus had to say Lazurus come forth, or the whole gravyard would have risen from the dead. There is power in His Word.

        Jesus was also revealing who He is.

        Genesis 2
        7 Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

        What is the breath of life. It is certainly not air. For while we need air to live, air can not raise a dead man to life. Even more, air can not give a spirit to any man, or make the dead spirit of a man alive.

        The breath of life is the Holy Spirit of The Lord. Is not Jesus LIFE.

        Just as God, The Creator of everything that exists, ( that is why He is called our Father) breathed the spirit into Adam, Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit into His disciples. They were born again that very instant. They were dead in the spirit, and His Holy Spirit IS LIFE. So His Holy Spirit brought life to their dead spirit and they were born again. They had been born of the flesh from their mother, but now they were born of the Holy Spirit from their heavenly Father, or the ONE that created them and everything that exists.

        The Manhood of Jesus is The only begotten Son of God. Begotton means to be born of a woman.

        The Godhood of Jesus is The One and Only God our Creator, our Father.

        Isaiah 9
        6 For unto us a child is born, and unto us a Son is given: and the government is upon his shoulder, and he shall call his name, Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The prince of peace.

        There is ONLY ONE GOD and One Everlasting Father. For everlasting means always was The Father and always will be The Father. That is why Jesus can say He is The FIRST and LAST.

        NO ONE WAS BEFORE HIM.

        Lou Newton
        Last edited by Lou Newton; December 8, 2016, 02:26 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Lou Newton View Post
          Thanks Barry for your reply on the other thread were I posted this about water baptism. Truth is certainly elusive because of our sinfulness and God's ways are so much higher than ours. So I do not claim to have arrived at the whole truth about this subject, but only like you seek to discuss it to have more information about it.



          I have been thinking about your reply ever since you posted it. It is food for thought and you made many good comments in it.

          Here are some things that came to my mind about water baptism that your post inspired.

          Matthew 3
          11“I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

          Mark 1
          7 And this was his message: “After me comes the one more powerful than I, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie. 8I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

          Mark 1
          15 The people were waiting expectantly and were all wondering in their hearts if John might possibly be the Messiah. 16 John answered them all, “I baptize you with water. But one who is more powerful than I will come, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

          Acts 1New International Version (NIV)

          Jesus Taken Up Into Heaven


          1 In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach 2 until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen.3 After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God. 4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

          I noticed several things in these passages:

          1 - water baptism seems to be a sign of repentance only, not salvation. (“I baptize you with water for repentance ) and The Lord Himself tells us that the disciples, who some were baptized in water for they were John's disciples first and others, or even many, may have been baptized in water as a sign of their repentance. BUT they were not yet saved because they had not received The Holy Spirit. For The Lord told them, 5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.” But much of the church uses water baptism as a sign of salvation ( or even worse necessary event to have salvation).

          2 - The scriptures tells us this: 8I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”
          I noticed that it does NOT say that Jesus will baptize with water and The Holy Spirit. Plus there is not one account in the Holy Scriptures of Jesus baptizing with water to my memory. There must be a reason for this, for God has a reason for everything He does.

          John's purpose was to prepare the way for Jesus, or prepare the people to receive Jesus. Repentance certainly prepares our hearts to hear from The Lord.

          But it may be that Jesus did not want to take the focus off of the baptism of His Holy Spirit with making water part of it. Men can not focus on two things at once. Jesus may have wanted us to focus of His Holy Spirit for no man will enter heaven without having His Holy Spirit. Even more important The Lord wanted all to know that water can not save, but only His Holy Spirit can bring life to a dead spirit.

          Then we also have this account:
          Acts 10New International Version (NIV)

          Cornelius Calls for Peter


          10 At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion in what was known as the Italian Regiment. 2 He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly. 3 One day at about three in the afternoon he had a vision.He distinctly saw an angel of God, who came to him and said, “Cornelius!”

          4 Cornelius stared at him in fear. “What is it, Lord?” he asked.

          The angel answered, “Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God. 5 Now send men to Joppa to bring back a man named Simon who is called Peter. 6 He is staying with Simon the tanner, whose house is by the sea.”

          7 When the angel who spoke to him had gone, Cornelius called two of his servants and a devout soldier who was one of his attendants. 8 He told them everything that had happened and sent them to Joppa.

          .............................................

          17 While Peter was wondering about the meaning of the vision, the men sent by Cornelius found out where Simon’s house was and stopped at the gate. 18 They called out, asking if Simon who was known as Peter was staying there.

          19 While Peter was still thinking about the vision, the Spirit said to him, “Simon, three men are looking for you. 20 So get up and go downstairs. Do not hesitate to go with them, for I have sent them.”

          21 Peter went down and said to the men, “I’m the one you’re looking for. Why have you come?”

          22 The men replied, “We have come from Cornelius the centurion. He is a righteous and God-fearing man, who is respected by all the Jewish people. A holy angel told him to ask you to come to his house so that he could hear what you have to say.” 23 Then Peter invited the men into the house to be his guests.

          Peter at Cornelius’s House


          The next day Peter started out with them, and some of the believers from Joppa went along. 24 The following day he arrived in Caesarea. Cornelius was expecting them and had called together his relatives and close friends. 25As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence. 26 But Peter made him get up. “Stand up,” he said, “I am only a man myself.”

          27 While talking with him, Peter went inside and found a large gathering of people. 28He said to them: “You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with or visit a Gentile. But God has shown me that I should not call anyone impure or unclean. 29 So when I was sent for, I came without raising any objection. May I ask why you sent for me?”

          30 Cornelius answered: “Three days ago I was in my house praying at this hour, at three in the afternoon. Suddenly a man in shining clothes stood before me 31 and said, ‘Cornelius, God has heard your prayer and remembered your gifts to the poor. 32 Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter. He is a guest in the home of Simon the tanner, who lives by the sea.’ 33 So I sent for you immediately, and it was good of you to come. Now we are all here in the presence of God to listen to everything the Lord has commanded you to tell us.”

          34 Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right. 36 You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. 37 You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached— 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.



          39 “We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a cross, 40 but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen.41He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42 He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. 43 All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

          44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.

          Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

          I noticed long ago that The Holy Spirit was given to Cornelius before they were baptized in water. That means that salvation did not come with their baptism in water, but salvation came when they humbled themselves before God and surrendered their life to Him.

          The Lord was showing us all that no man can baptize with The Holy Spirit, or even cause such an event. It is ONLY The Lord Jesus that can judge a man's heart and then baptize him in His Holy Spirit.

          The Lord did it this way for a reason. He wanted to reveal that baptism in water does NOT save, and He wanted to reveal that being baptized in His Holy Spirit does save.

          John was certainly sent by God. BUT even John himself said:

          John 3

          27 To this John replied, “A person can receive only what is given them from heaven. 28 You yourselves can testify that I said, ‘I am not the Messiah but am sent ahead of him.’ 29 The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend who attends the bridegroom waits and listens for him, and is full of joy when he hears the bridegroom’s voice. That joy is mine, and it is now complete. 30He must become greater; I must become less.”

          Even John knew that the focus must be taken off of him, and water baptism, so that the people would focus on The Lord and His Holy Spirit instead.

          Flesh seeks the natural, and only the spirit seeks the spiritual.

          That is why John died and was taken up. He had to become less here on earth, but of course became much more in heaven.

          Even the disciples were not yet saved and did not have the Holy Spirit after walking with Jesus for three years.

          WHY ?

          I think this is because they had no reason to seek The Lord in the spirit. They had access to the Lord in the flesh. They did not have to wrestle with was His response from Him or not.

          BUT there are disadvantages to this, and these are why The Lord wanted to give us all His Holy Spirit instead:

          1 - When Christ was in the flesh, He had the limitations of the flesh ( He was a little lower than the angels in this way) because God humbled Himself to be born of a woman and become a man. He could not be with every believer at once all over the earth when He was in the flesh.

          2 - Flesh can not commune with spirit. Flesh can only commune with flesh. His Holy Spirit can commune with our spirit. That is communion on a much deeper level. That is why God breathed the breath of life into Adam ( man). So we would then be created in His image and could commune with Him in the spirit.

          3 - The natural world is going to be done away with. No flesh can enter heaven. So we have to be born again of the spirit, with the baptism of His Holy Spirit so that we can be with Jesus forever.

          NOTICE THIS:

          John 20

          21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.

          Know we know that the disciples received The Holy Spirit that very day. Because the ONE who spoke, let there be light, made the light come at that very instant. When Jesus told the stormy waters to be calm, they calmed so fast it scared the disciples. Jesus had to say Lazurus come forth, or the whole gravyard would have risen from the dead. There is power in His Word.

          Jesus was also revealing who He is.

          Genesis 2
          7 Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

          What is the breath of life. It is certainly not air. For while we need air to live, air can not raise a dead man to life. Even more, air can not give a spirit to any man, or make the dead spirit of a man alive.

          The breath of life is the Holy Spirit of The Lord. Is not Jesus LIFE.

          Just as God, The Creator of everything that exists, ( that is why He is called our Father) breathed the spirit into Adam, Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit into His disciples. They were born again that very instant. They were dead in the spirit, and His Holy Spirit IS LIFE. So His Holy Spirit brought life to their dead spirit and they were born again. They had been born of the flesh from their mother, but now they were born of the Holy Spirit from their heavenly Father, or the ONE that created them and everything that exists.

          The Manhood of Jesus is The only begotten Son of God. Begotton means to be born of a woman.

          The Godhood of Jesus is The One and Only God our Creator, our Father.

          Isaiah 9
          6 For unto us a child is born, and unto us a Son is given: and the government is upon his shoulder, and he shall call his name, Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The prince of peace.

          There is ONLY ONE GOD and One Everlasting Father. For everlasting means always was The Father and always will be The Father. That is why Jesus can say He is The FIRST and LAST.

          NO ONE WAS BEFORE HIM.

          Lou Newton
          No comments about this post ? Agree or disagree, or thinking and praying about it.

          Comment


          • #6
            I'm giving it some space to see what comes to me. :)

            I remembered seeing a verse which conveyed to me that Jesus baptized others with water. So I went searching for it.

            Joh 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

            Joh 3:26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.

            And there is this that shortly follows:

            Joh 4:1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
            Joh 4:2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)
            Joh 4:3 He left Judaea, and departed again into Galilee.

            John Gill gives this commentary about Joh 4:2:

            Though Jesus himself baptized not,.... And therefore as Nonnus observes, it was a false report that was made to the Pharisees; at least in part, so far as concerns the act of baptizing: though it may be this is observed, not so much to show the falsehood of that report, as to correct what is said of Christ's baptizing; lest it should be understood, as if he baptized in his own person; whereas he did not, that not so, well comporting with his greatness and majesty: wherefore "the king did not baptize in water", as Nonnus expresses it, but left that for his disciples and servants to do; he had other and greater work to perform, as to preach the Gospel, and work miracles, heal diseases, cast out devils, &c. And besides, had another sort of baptism, of a more excellent nature to administer, namely, the baptism of the Spirit; and since water baptism is administered in his name, as well as in the name of the Father and of the Spirit, it does not seem that it would have been administered with that propriety by himself, in his own name; add to which, as is also observed by others, it might have occasioned contentions and disputes among the baptized, had some, been baptized by Christ, and others by his disciples; the one valuing themselves on that account, above the others. The Persic version indeed suggests, as if both Christ and his disciples baptized, rendering the words thus, "Jesus was not alone who baptized, but the disciples also baptized": whereas the truth of the matter is, that Christ did not baptize in water at all:

            but his disciples; they baptized in his name, and by his orders, such who were first made disciples by him.

            However, the verb for baptized in Joh 3:22 is annotated in the interlinear Greek text as third-person singular. The only third-person singular subject in that sentence is "he", which is to say Jesus. So, we seem to have a bit of ambiguity.

            I know Greek barely at all, but I can compare the glyphs and they are the same in the Textus Receptus and the Alexandrian text. So at least the two bodies of text are in agreement.

            Gill's assessment may be correct. However, if indeed Jesus was baptizing, it was before the Holy Ghost was sent. And it makes me curious why He might baptize one day (Joh 3:22) and not another (Joh 4:2). Whatever the reason for mentioning the two contrasting events, they were important enough to include and to write in that way.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Baruch View Post
              I'm giving it some space to see what comes to me. :)

              I remembered seeing a verse which conveyed to me that Jesus baptized others with water. So I went searching for it.

              Joh 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

              Joh 3:26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.

              And there is this that shortly follows:

              Joh 4:1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
              Joh 4:2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)
              Joh 4:3 He left Judaea, and departed again into Galilee.

              John Gill gives this commentary about Joh 4:2:

              Though Jesus himself baptized not,.... And therefore as Nonnus observes, it was a false report that was made to the Pharisees; at least in part, so far as concerns the act of baptizing: though it may be this is observed, not so much to show the falsehood of that report, as to correct what is said of Christ's baptizing; lest it should be understood, as if he baptized in his own person; whereas he did not, that not so, well comporting with his greatness and majesty: wherefore "the king did not baptize in water", as Nonnus expresses it, but left that for his disciples and servants to do; he had other and greater work to perform, as to preach the Gospel, and work miracles, heal diseases, cast out devils, &c. And besides, had another sort of baptism, of a more excellent nature to administer, namely, the baptism of the Spirit; and since water baptism is administered in his name, as well as in the name of the Father and of the Spirit, it does not seem that it would have been administered with that propriety by himself, in his own name; add to which, as is also observed by others, it might have occasioned contentions and disputes among the baptized, had some, been baptized by Christ, and others by his disciples; the one valuing themselves on that account, above the others. The Persic version indeed suggests, as if both Christ and his disciples baptized, rendering the words thus, "Jesus was not alone who baptized, but the disciples also baptized": whereas the truth of the matter is, that Christ did not baptize in water at all:

              but his disciples; they baptized in his name, and by his orders, such who were first made disciples by him.

              However, the verb for baptized in Joh 3:22 is annotated in the interlinear Greek text as third-person singular. The only third-person singular subject in that sentence is "he", which is to say Jesus. So, we seem to have a bit of ambiguity.

              I know Greek barely at all, but I can compare the glyphs and they are the same in the Textus Receptus and the Alexandrian text. So at least the two bodies of text are in agreement.

              Gill's assessment may be correct. However, if indeed Jesus was baptizing, it was before the Holy Ghost was sent. And it makes me curious why He might baptize one day (Joh 3:22) and not another (Joh 4:2). Whatever the reason for mentioning the two contrasting events, they were important enough to include and to write in that way.
              Thanks for the reply Barry. I agree the text is not clear if Jesus baptized anyone in water or not. BUT we can see that is not what He came for.

              John lets us know that John came to baptize in water for repentance but Jesus came to baptize people in His Holy Spirit.

              Matthew 3
              11“I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

              Mark 1
              7 And this was his message: “After me comes the one more powerful than I, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie. 8I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

              Mark 1
              15 The people were waiting expectantly and were all wondering in their hearts if John might possibly be the Messiah. 16John answered them all, “I baptize you with water. But one who is more powerful than I will come, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

              I think we agree that baptism in water does not save. Also those who insist that someone must be baptized in water to be saved are in gross error and it can be a detriment to their salvation.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Lou Newton View Post

                Thanks for the reply Barry. I agree the text is not clear if Jesus baptized anyone in water or not. BUT we can see that is not what He came for.

                John lets us know that John came to baptize in water for repentance but Jesus came to baptize people in His Holy Spirit.

                Matthew 3
                11“I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

                Mark 1
                7 And this was his message: “After me comes the one more powerful than I, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie. 8I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

                Mark 1
                15 The people were waiting expectantly and were all wondering in their hearts if John might possibly be the Messiah. 16John answered them all, “I baptize you with water. But one who is more powerful than I will come, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

                I think we agree that baptism in water does not save. Also those who insist that someone must be baptized in water to be saved are in gross error and it can be a detriment to their salvation.
                I think the churches push water baptism and other "sacraments" so as to be an inseparable part of people's lives. And most people agree with that wholeheartedly, even people who don't claim the church claim that is true. It's like saying you all have to be the same like you're a mud brick. There's a process in the old testament that describes the making of a mud brick, referring to the structures that Babylon built. The Lord said only use uncut stones for my altars, and we like to use mud bricks for everything, including altars. It's so difficult for us, and worse for the church follower, to use uncut stones and let the Lord do it. That's why water baptism, and other ceremonies are so popular.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by redsoxmaloney View Post

                  I think the churches push water baptism and other "sacraments" so as to be an inseparable part of people's lives. And most people agree with that wholeheartedly, even people who don't claim the church claim that is true. It's like saying you all have to be the same like you're a mud brick. There's a process in the old testament that describes the making of a mud brick, referring to the structures that Babylon built. The Lord said only use uncut stones for my altars, and we like to use mud bricks for everything, including altars. It's so difficult for us, and worse for the church follower, to use uncut stones and let the Lord do it. That's why water baptism, and other ceremonies are so popular.
                  Thanks for the reply Tom.

                  Church leaders have no control over the baptism of the Holy Spirit so they teach the baptism in water is necessary to be saved because they can control the baptism in water.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCvrdrX6Y20

                    I know it's long, but I was wondering what you thought of this video?

                    Don't get me wrong, I really like Torben (the guy in the video) and I think he makes some good points. I think he has a child like faith and I don't consider him a false teacher at all, but I think he has the wrong baptism (should be the baptism of fire, not water baptism.)

                    Comment

                    Working...
                    X