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  • When is the rapture???

    Yay, I get to be the one who kicks off the End Times forum. I'll start with everyone's favorite end time topic.... the Rapture!
    1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (NLT)
    13 And now, dear brothers and sisters, we want you to know what will happen to the believers who have died so you will not grieve like people who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and was raised to life again, we also believe that when Jesus returns, God will bring back with him the believers who have died.

    15 We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the believers who have died will rise from their graves. 17 Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever. 18 So encourage each other with these words.

    Some people say there is no rapture. But, I think that's pretty silly. Cause, if there is no rapture, then any believer who is still alive at Jesus's coming will remain in their sinful flesh when Jesus comes, and would have to wait until they died a natural death before they could receive their glorified body like his with the rest of his children. That doesn't make much sense to me. Plus, I can see the word rapture there in verse 17, it's just not spelled the way most people think it is, but it's there.

    So, I think there is a rapture, I don't really want to debate that one. My question which I pose to you, the reader, is this:

    When is the rapture?

    Are we getting a free ticket ride out of here before anything serious happens? I think some call that the "Pre-Trib rapture." That sounds pretty nice, it really does. I just don't see any precedent for it set in scripture. In fact, the way I see things, it pretty much contradicts what is written in scripture. But, I guess that's debatable, otherwise there wouldn't be much reason to start a thread on this topic would there?

    Let's say it is Pre-Trib though.... Just how good do you have to be to get into the pre-trib rapture? What's the standard? Do I just have to be better than some cut off line? Like, do I just have to be better than say... my brother Blane or something? As long as I'm walking straighter than Blane I'm good? Lol, that sounds so absurd when I say it.... but seriously, if one believes in a pre-tribulation rapture, how good does one have to be to obtain to it? Or is God going to just snatch all the lights he put into the world for a reason out in an instance, and just leave the world in complete darkness?

    Ok... So, if one doesn't believe in the pre-trib rapture, then when is the rapture. Is it on a set day, at a set time? Is it possible to know when the rapture is going to be. Does it even really matter? Just a few questions.


    When do you think the rapture is?

    Grace to you,

    Travis
    Last edited by Travis; August 27, 2014, 08:34 PM.

  • #2
    1 Corinthians 15:52Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    You know not what you do because you know not who He is.
    - Paul Washer
    Satan is the angel of knowledge and he does not waste his time on anything for no reason.
    - Lou Newton

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Jules View Post
      1 Corinthians 15:52Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
      Good scripture Julie. It's tells us that the rapture is at the LAST TRUMP.

      Now, when is the LAST TRUMP ?

      Revelation 8
      The Trumpets
      6 Then the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared to sound them. 7 The first angel sounded his trumpet, and there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up. 8 The second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a huge mountain, all ablaze, was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned into blood, 9 a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed. 10 The third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star, blazing like a torch, fell from the sky on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water-- 11 the name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters turned bitter, and many people died from the waters that had become bitter. 12 The fourth angel sounded his trumpet, and a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them turned dark. A third of the day was without light, and also a third of the night. 13 As I watched, I heard an eagle that was flying in midair call out in a loud voice: "Woe! Woe! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the trumpet blasts about to be sounded by the other three angels!"
      Revelation 9
      1 The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. 2 When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. 3 And out of the smoke locusts came down upon the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. 4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 They were not given power to kill them, but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes a man. 6 During those days men will seek death, but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them. 7 The locusts looked like horses prepared for battle. On their heads they wore something like crowns of gold, and their faces resembled human faces. 8 Their hair was like women's hair, and their teeth were like lions' teeth. 9 They had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the thundering of many horses and chariots rushing into battle. 10 They had tails and stings like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months. 11 They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek, Apollyon. 12 The first woe is past; two other woes are yet to come. 13 The sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice coming from the horns of the golden altar that is before God. 14 It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, "Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates." 15 And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind. 16 The number of the mounted troops was two hundred million. I heard their number. 17 The horses and riders I saw in my vision looked like this: Their breastplates were fiery red, dark blue, and yellow as sulfur. The heads of the horses resembled the heads of lions, and out of their mouths came fire, smoke and sulfur. 18 A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulfur that came out of their mouths. 19 The power of the horses was in their mouths and in their tails; for their tails were like snakes, having heads with which they inflict injury. 20 The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood--idols that cannot see or hear or walk. 21 Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.
      Revelation 10
      The Angel and the Little Scroll
      1 Then I saw another mighty angel coming down from heaven. He was robed in a cloud, with a rainbow above his head; his face was like the sun, and his legs were like fiery pillars. 2 He was holding a little scroll, which lay open in his hand. He planted his right foot on the sea and his left foot on the land, 3 and he gave a loud shout like the roar of a lion. When he shouted, the voices of the seven thunders spoke. 4 And when the seven thunders spoke, I was about to write; but I heard a voice from heaven say, "Seal up what the seven thunders have said and do not write it down." 5 Then the angel I had seen standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand to heaven. 6 And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, "There will be no more delay! 7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets." 8 Then the voice that I had heard from heaven spoke to me once more: "Go, take the scroll that lies open in the hand of the angel who is standing on the sea and on the land." 9 So I went to the angel and asked him to give me the little scroll. He said to me, "Take it and eat it. It will turn your stomach sour, but in your mouth it will be as sweet as honey." 10 I took the little scroll from the angel's hand and ate it. It tasted as sweet as honey in my mouth, but when I had eaten it, my stomach turned sour. 11 Then I was told, "You must prophesy again about many peoples, nations, languages and kings."
      Revelation11
      The Two Witnesses
      1 I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, "Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there. 2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth." 4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. 5 If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. 6 These men have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want. 7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. 8 Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. 9 For three and a half days men from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. 10 The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth. 11 But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. 12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on. 13 At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven. 14 The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon.

      The Seventh Trumpet
      15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever." 16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying: "We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign. 18 The nations were angry; and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your saints and those who reverence your name, both small and great-- and for destroying those who destroy the earth." 19 Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a great hailstorm.
      CERTAINLY THE LAST TRUMP CAN NOT BE BEFORE THIS 7TH TRUMP, OR IT WOULD NOT BE THE LAST.

      But The Lord tells us that at the 7th trump, the kingdom of the world has become the Kingdom of our Lord and His Christ. and He will reign for ever and ever.

      So this 7th trump is the Lord's return and we are caught up in the air to be with Him for ever and ever. Jesus is returning to the earth and we go to meet Him in the air. Like little children would run out of the house to greet their Dad who was back from a trip. Then we go back the earth to be with Jesus.

      But we can see that this rapture takes place AFTER all of the seals and the trumps which is what so many are counting on being taken up before these take place. The 5th, 6th, and 7th trump are called the three woes for the inhabitants OF the earth.

      BUT we are IN THIS WORLD BUT NOT OF THIS WORLD.

      John 18:36
      Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”
      So the 7th trump will be a WOE to the world, for their judgment is now upon them.

      But the 7th trump will be a joy to us who trust in Jesus. For we will be with Him for ever.

      Also the number 7 is the number of completeness. The 7th day that started in Genesis 1 but had no end in that chapter, is now ended. The 8th day is upon us. The day of new beginnings. So the 7th trump is the END OF THIS AGE. A new age is started and has no end.

      Grace to you
      Lou Newton
      Bond servant of Jesus

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Lou Newton View Post
        CERTAINLY THE LAST TRUMP CAN NOT BE BEFORE THIS 7TH TRUMP, OR IT WOULD NOT BE THE LAST.
        But Lou,

        Paul wrote those words many decades before John even wrote the "Revelation of Jesus Christ," down. I mean, there is no way he could possibly have known about the 7 trumpets of judgement, right?

        Surely he is referring to another trumpet. Another "last" trumpet. Maybe the "last" trumpet right before the "church" magically disappears out of the world without warning or explanation to anyone else. Some trumpet that no one can hear or knows about, but is a different "last" trumpet.

        Right?

        And I mean, what about this verse:
        Revelation 4: ESV
        1 After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this." 2 At once I was in the Spirit, and behold, a throne stood in heaven, with one seated on the throne.

        Isn't that there to let us all know that, just like at the beginning of the revelation given to John, all the believers on earth will secretly be taken up to heaven to watch everyone else go through misery and torment while they are safe and sound?

        Right?

        I mean, isn't all the warning and such in bible about the tribulation period really just for the Jews and those who call themselves Christians, but just really aren't living like they should at the moment when Jesus decides to rapture his people? Surely Jesus would never make any of his children who are being faithful and obedient go through such a mess, would he? I mean, I didn't sign up for tribulation and distress when I joined this whole Christian thing... Right?

        No pre-trib rapture just sounds sooo.... unpleasurable. Who would want to go through something like that....

        Travis

        Comment


        • #5
          Jesus said His followers would be raptured at the end of the age

          The parable of the weeds and the wheat



          The Parable of the Weeds ( Matthew 13 NIV )

          24Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.
          27"The owner's servants came to him and said, 'Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?'
          28" 'An enemy did this,' he replied.
          "The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?'
          29" 'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.' "

          The Parable of the Weeds Explained (Matthew 13 NIV )

          36Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field."
          37He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
          40"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
          Many Christians fear the tribulation, but I would say fear being the weeds. Look they will be pulled up at the end of the age and burned in the fire. I do not want to weep and gnash my teeth at God.

          Do not fear being the wheat, for look the wheat SHALL BE RIGHTEOUS AND SHINE LIKE THE SUN IN THE KINGDOM OF THEIR FATHER.

          Who could even hope for anything better than that. We should never fear how Jesus will treat us or what He will take us through. Jesus left heaven and came down to earth and was born of a virgin to become The Man. He left heaven and all of it's glory to become a little lower than the angels. Think of it, God who Created everything that exists became a lowly man. And He did this while knowing the future and how His own children would treat Him.

          Jesus knew they would spit is His face and strike Him and beat Him until he was marred more than any other man. You have to let that sink in for a while. Men are so cruel and have beaten others beyond recognition. Think of the beating that Jesus endured for you.

          They then mocked Him, The King of all Kings, like He was nothing. They thought they were able to do this to Him, but it was only because he was willing to lay down His life for us. They did not take His life, Jesus laid down His life for us.

          They had Him carry his own cross through the city streets like He was a criminal. Yet His only crime was healing the sick, raising the dead, and preaching salvation to the lost.

          They nailed Him to that cross. I have read that having that nail drove through the hand was the most painful experience known to man. They drove nails through his feet, right through the bony feet. I can not imagine the pain. He hung on that cross for hours, naked, and being mocked by heathen soldiers that worshiped mere false gods. The pharisees who were so wrong and worshiped the law instead of the law giver; walked by, mocking Him. How could Jesus keep from striking them dead with lighting bolts, to show them, and the world, how wrong they were.

          He did all this, so that He, the Righteous One, could pay for our sin.

          SHOULD WE EVER FEAR THIS JESUS WHO DIED FOR US. OH, how we should love Him by trusting Him with our very lives. None of us are trustworthy, for we have all lied and sinned.

          None of us know what tomorrow holds. We can not make one hair gray or black. We can not keep ourselves from growing bald. Who among us can keep from getting sick. Who can make themselves skinny. We are blind, deaf, and lame, and pretty stupid to boot. It is only a fool that trusts in themselves rather than The One who shed His own blood for them, especially considering that same Jesus created everything that exists.

          Let us go back to the parable and the explanation by Jesus:

          One who sowed the good seed = Son of man, or Jesus

          The enemy who sowed bad seed = Devil

          Field = the world

          Good seed = sons of the Kingdom or real Christians

          Weeds = sons of the Devil

          Harvest = The end of this age

          Harvesters = angels


          Now let us go back to the parable and put in Jesus for the man who sowed good seed, Devil for the one who sowed the bad seed, etc; Check me and make sure that I have put the right definitions in for the right words that Jesus used.

          The Parable of the Weeds - (with the definitions of Jesus put in)

          24Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like Jesus, who sowed good seed in his world. 25But while everyone was sleeping, the Devil came and sowed sons of his kingdom among the sons of the Kingdom of Jesus, and went away. 26When the followers of Jesus matured, then the followers of the Devil also appeared.
          27"The angels of Jesus came to him and said, 'Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the followers of the Devil come from ?'
          28" 'The Devil did this,' Jesus replied.
          "The angels asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?'
          29" 'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the followers of Satan, you may root up my followers with them. 30Let both grow together until the end of this age. At that time I will tell the angels: FIRST collect the followers of Satan and tie them in bundles to be burned; THEN gather my followers and bring them into my barn.' "
          You shall know the Truth and the Truth shall set you free. Do not listen to Satan who wants to destroy you. Listen to Jesus who died for you. The only thing to fear, is to be deceived by Satan into serving him, and then to be burned with him.

          Jesus said the tribulation would be as in the days of Noah. Noah prepared, like God told him to. Therefore Noah, and his entire family, was in the ark and safe. While the flood came and carried all of those who followed Satan away in the waters.

          Trust the one who shed His blood for you and me.

          Grace to you
          Lou Newton
          Bond servant of Jesus

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Travis View Post
            But Lou,

            Paul wrote those words many decades before John even wrote the "Revelation of Jesus Christ," down. I mean, there is no way he could possibly have known about the 7 trumpets of judgement, right?
            As you know, Paul was only the pen that The Holy Spirit used to write that passage. The Holy Spirit knows all of course.

            Surely he is referring to another trumpet. Another "last" trumpet. Maybe the "last" trumpet right before the "church" magically disappears out of the world without warning or explanation to anyone else. Some trumpet that no one can hear or knows about, but is a different "last" trumpet.

            Right?

            And I mean, what about this verse:
            Revelation 4: ESV
            1 After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this." 2 At once I was in the Spirit, and behold, a throne stood in heaven, with one seated on the throne.
            Obviously Chapter 4 comes BEFORE Chapter 11. You can not show me a trump that was blown AFTER this 7th trump in The Revelation.



            Isn't that there to let us all know that, just like at the beginning of the revelation given to John, all the believers on earth will secretly be taken up to heaven to watch everyone else go through misery and torment while they are safe and sound?

            Right?
            Yes this certainly is misery, but it is misery for the people who are of this world. For those who are a different Kingdom, that of The Lord Jesus, it will be day of joy. Those who have their eyes on this world will tremble in fear. Those who have their eyes of Jesus will look forward to His return.

            I mean, isn't all the warning and such in bible about the tribulation period really just for the Jews and those who call themselves Christians, but just really aren't living like they should at the moment when Jesus decides to rapture his people? Surely Jesus would never make any of his children who are being faithful and obedient go through such a mess, would he? I mean, I didn't sign up for tribulation and distress when I joined this whole Christian thing... Right?
            Abraham is a Jew, and so is David. Elijah and all the prophets are Jews. Jesus told the Pharisees that their father was the devil. So they were NOT Jews. We have been grafted into the tree, so we are Jews. Whatever the Jews go through, we will also go through.

            No pre-trib rapture just sounds sooo.... unpleasurable. Who would want to go through something like that....

            Travis
            See my reply above to misery.

            Thanks you for your very kind reply Travis. We can only know the truth by asking questions.

            Grace to you
            Lou Newton
            Bond servant of Jesus
            Last edited by Lou Newton; August 28, 2014, 10:12 AM.

            Comment


            • #7
              CERTAINLY THE LAST TRUMP CAN NOT BE BEFORE THIS 7TH TRUMP, OR IT WOULD NOT BE THE LAST.
              There can only be ONE FIRST. By definition of the number one, there can only be one, ONE. or FIRST. If in a race, two tie and no one comes in before them, neither is FIRST. Because neither came in before the other. So there would be no first place.

              There is only one FIRST.

              By the same reasoning there is only one LAST.

              Jesus is the FIRST and the LAST. There is no one before Him and no one after Him. For He is The First and The Last.

              So there can be no trump AFTER the last trump, for it is the LAST trump.

              This is why there is no trump AFTER the 7th trump in The Revelation. Because it is the LAST TRUMP.

              Lou Newton

              Comment


              • #8
                I hope everyone is aware that Travis is just playing devils advocate in his post here

                Originally posted by Travis View Post
                But Lou,

                Paul wrote those words many decades before John even wrote the "Revelation of Jesus Christ," down. I mean, there is no way he could possibly have known about the 7 trumpets of judgement, right?

                Surely he is referring to another trumpet. Another "last" trumpet. Maybe the "last" trumpet right before the "church" magically disappears out of the world without warning or explanation to anyone else. Some trumpet that no one can hear or knows about, but is a different "last" trumpet.

                Right?

                And I mean, what about this verse:
                Revelation 4: ESV
                1 After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this." 2 At once I was in the Spirit, and behold, a throne stood in heaven, with one seated on the throne.

                Isn't that there to let us all know that, just like at the beginning of the revelation given to John, all the believers on earth will secretly be taken up to heaven to watch everyone else go through misery and torment while they are safe and sound?

                Right?

                I mean, isn't all the warning and such in bible about the tribulation period really just for the Jews and those who call themselves Christians, but just really aren't living like they should at the moment when Jesus decides to rapture his people? Surely Jesus would never make any of his children who are being faithful and obedient go through such a mess, would he? I mean, I didn't sign up for tribulation and distress when I joined this whole Christian thing... Right?

                No pre-trib rapture just sounds sooo.... unpleasurable. Who would want to go through something like that....

                Travis
                I hope everyone is aware that Travis is just playing devils advocate here to try to put forth objections pretribbers might have.

                Certainly some others must have some questions about this. Post them so we all can try to answer them. Our faith is built by answering our questions. Iron sharpens iron.

                Grace to you

                Lou Newton
                Bond servant of Jesus

                Lou

                Comment


                • #9
                  The following was a response I got from post # 5 on another forum:

                  Originally Posted by HisDoulas
                  Thank you Jesus for giving this to Lou to give to us. Words are inadequate to express my gratitude for what you have done and are doing. Thank you for your servant, Lou.
                  Dear sister,

                  I will take that hug, believe me I get very few. I will even settle for one over a computer. Someday Jesus will give us both real hugs and we will be in heaven, both literally and in our hearts and minds.

                  My writing is a miracle in itself and a bigger one than one might think. I had never typed a word not long ago and had never turned a computer on. The Lord kept telling me to write and I thought He could not be asking me to do that. I was given a complete scholarship for YSU when I was 57 and went back to school. I did great in the math, physics and engineering courses. I got nothing but A's and without the curve. I got an A in a very difficult physics course that the prof had not given an A in four years I was told.

                  But any course that required writing instead of solving problems with math I could not do. I dropped out of course after course of anything with writing involved. The Lord had so much mercy for me. I took this history course for grad students because I had to have another course and could not find any other that was open. I had to get the Profs permission to take it. I did great in class and even the test that were written in a great rush, and he did not count grammar and spelling etc. I got the highest score on the tests in the class. But at the end of the course he assigned a paper for us to write. I just could not do it. I went in to his office the day it was due and asked for an incomplete. He granted it to me. After the final test, which on my paper he wrote, I can not find anything wrong with this at all; I did not know what I would do. I got my grades a few days later, and he gave me an A instead of the incomplete.

                  I went right to his office and informed him of his mistake. He told me it was no mistake. He said that I had done such a good job on the rest of the material, that he waved the paper. Have you ever heard of such a thing from a university professor. A professor said it was OK that I did not do HIS assigned paper ! It brought tears to my eyes to remember this. How great the mercy of the Lord is. The Lord gave me favor in the professors eyes just as He gave favor to Joseph in Egypt.

                  He was a very verbal Marxist and I preached Jesus Christ and Him crucified right in class. He supported getting rid of all guns, I was a card carrying NRA member. I not only passed his course, and did not write the only paper he assigned, but I got the highest grade in the class.

                  No one can tell me that was not a miracle.

                  Grace to you - Lou Newton

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Another reply to my post # 5 on another forum:

                    Originally Posted by molon_labe
                    I commented on it. It's not evidence of the when the rapture occurs. It has nothing to do with it.

                    Hi Molon Labe,

                    Welcome to this forum dear friend, I thank you for your very kind reply. It is only as we question all that we believe, that we can see The Truth.

                    You have read the account of my article that our dear friend Randy posted on your forum. But have you read my article on this forum, there are some differences that I feel are important.

                    Cato did not claim that what he posted was my article, but taken FROM IT.

                    I do not think it is a good practice to comment on things that I have not even read. What do you think about this.

                    The arguments that you present, against this parable not being about the rapture, are just not valid arguments.

                    Let us look at the scripture again, instead of our statements about this scripture.


                    Matthew 13 KJV
                    24Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

                    25But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

                    26But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

                    27So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

                    28He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

                    29But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

                    30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
                    Now we can explain this parable as we like, but we have The One who shed His blood for all, and He has already explained this parable. But even without the explanation of Jesus, we all know what the word FIRST means don't we.


                    Matthew 13
                    36Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
                    The disciples were wise and did not even attempt to understand the parable on their own understanding, but they asked the Author about it. They did not go to the head of the church in their day, or seek a expert on prophecy, but they sought out the Author of the parable. We would do well to do the same, don't you agree.



                    37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

                    38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one
                    ;
                    So this parable has NOTHING to do with professors of Christ that are faithful vs professors that are not. It has nothing to do with OT vs NT. It has nothing to do with those in the church organization vs those that are not.

                    Jesus Himself tells us that it is about the children of the Kingdom vs the children of the wicked one. The whole OT and the whole NT tells us of the battle between these two groups. If I am a child of The Lord Jesus, I am in that group of His Kingdom. Yes there are many who profess to be His child but are not. But they are NOT His child, but they are the child of the evil one. There are only two groups on the face of the earth, and everyone is in one group or the other.

                    Ones belief about the rapture DOES NOT determine which group they are in. Only one thing determines which group any person is in. Every single person who truly trusts in the blood of Jesus, and nothing else, to save them are His child.


                    39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
                    Jesus makes this very clear that the parable goes right up to the end of the world. But some speculate that the rapture is BEFORE the end of the world, and so they say this parable is not about that rapture. But they have neglected what Jesus had just said previous to that. He said the parable was about the seed that He sowed and the seed that the Devil sowed. When did the Devil start sowing his seed. Was it not in the garden. When did Jesus start sowing His seed. Was it not also in the garden. Did The Lord not walk and talk with Adam in the garden. Did He not sow seed in the heart of Adam.

                    So we can see this parable is about the time from the creation of men right up to the end of the world. Will we not go to meet Him in the clouds after the garden and before the end of the world.

                    Grace to you - Lou Newton

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Lou said:

                      ...Jesus said the tribulation would be as in the days of Noah. Noah prepared, like God told him to. Therefore Noah, and his entire family, was in the ark and safe. While the flood came and carried all of those who followed Satan away in the waters...
                      Just thinking out loud here, but if I may point out a few more examples...

                      Not only did The Lord take Noah and his family THROUGH the flood, but He also led Moses and the Israelites THROUGH the desert. And Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego were kept safe THROUGH the fiery furnace. Do we really believe that we are so special that we would be exempt from going THROUGH tribulation? Or is our faith so weak that we don't think we'd make it through and wishfully hope for a rapture to avoid it?
                      You know not what you do because you know not who He is.
                      - Paul Washer
                      Satan is the angel of knowledge and he does not waste his time on anything for no reason.
                      - Lou Newton

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        All that trust God to save them are followers of Jesus

                        Here is a post from another forum that was a reply to my post # 5:


                        Originally Posted by Cato
                        Lou ...

                        The following is from a poster at the other forum who fervently believes in a pre-trib rapture.
                        This is HIS RESPONSE to your Matthew 13 "message".
                        ~~~~~
                        I quote,
                        "Mr Newton uses this parable to defend a post-tribulation rapture position for the Church, but the description of events in this parable are not the same as other descriptions of the rapture. Yeshua doesn’t send out angels to gather His church, He comes Himself (1 Thes. 4:16). Also there are those in His Kingdom who aren’t part of the Church! There are Old Testament Believers who died in faith of a coming Messiah but didn’t live to see the events of the cross. They’re part of His Kingdom, too. And then there are the Tribulation Saints who come to faith after the Rapture and are martyred during the Great Tribulation. They’re part of His Kingdom as well. Just because these parables are in the Gospels doesn’t mean they only apply to the Church so using them to support a position unique to the Church takes them out of context.
                        ~~~~~
                        I look forward to your response to this "line of reasoning".
                        Sincerely,
                        Randy
                        Hi Randy,

                        Since this has already been posted, I will answer it point by point.

                        Yeshua doesn’t send out angels to gather His church, He comes Himself (1 Thes. 4:16).
                        Let us look at that scripture:


                        16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
                        It is very elementary logic that is involved here. Jesus is CERTAINLY RETURNING FOR US, BUT THAT DOES NOT PREVENT ANGELS COMING WITH HIM.

                        Jesus returns with all of His angels and we know from Matthew 13 that it is the angles that GATHER us and take us in to the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Even the scriptures that the pretrib believers use tell us that we will meet the Lord in the air. I know that I can not fly with this flesh.


                        Also there are those in His Kingdom who aren’t part of the Church! There are Old Testament Believers who died in faith of a coming Messiah but didn’t live to see the events of the cross. They’re part of His Kingdom, too.
                        A rose by any other name is still a rose, is it not. If I call it a rose and you call it a flower, it is still the same rose. The whole Bible is very clear that there is ONE AND ONLY ONE BODY OF CHRIST. If some call that body the true church and others call it by another name, it is still the one true body of Christ.

                        God has many Names, but there is only one God. The body of Jesus has many names, the body, the church (true church), the children of the Kingdom of God, the saints; but there is only one body.

                        Enoch was RIGHTEOUS. There is no other way to be righteous than by the blood of Jesus.


                        Rev 13:8
                        8All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world
                        Surely the blood of Jesus reaches back in mere time for those who lived before the cross, just as the blood reaches forward in time for us. If it can not do the one, it can not do the other. If the blood did not apply to Enoch in his day, it can not apply to us that some would say are born too late.

                        Of course the blood reaches into the future as it does the past.

                        How could Enoch be righteous without The Holy Spirit. How could the spirit of any man be made alive by the Holy Spirit without first being forgiven by the blood of Jesus.

                        YOU ARE CORRECT THEY ARE PART OF HIS KINGDOM, AND IN MATTHEW 13 JESUS CLEARLY SAYS THOSE WHO ARE IN HIS KINGDOM WILL BE GATHERED LAST.


                        And then there are the Tribulation Saints who come to faith after the Rapture and are martyred during the Great Tribulation. They’re part of His Kingdom as well.
                        This argument is very unreasonable and not valid at all. He uses the ASSUMPTION that the pretrib rapture is true, to make this argument.

                        THE PROBLEM IS THAT IT IS NOT TRUE, and so this argument becomes ridiculous. There are no new post rapture saints. For Jesus makes it very clear that the rapture comes at the end of the world.



                        Just because these parables are in the Gospels doesn’t mean they only apply to the Church so using them to support a position unique to the Church takes them out of context.
                        Who else are the children of the Kingdom, except the children of The King. Who are the children of The King, none other than those that trust in God to save them.

                        Some will have been born before Abraham. Some will have been born in the nation of Israel. Some will be Gentiles. But there is ONE AND ONLY ONE BODY OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST.

                        Jesus is NOT a respecter of persons, or birth. Jesus is The Creator of all that exists. Jesus is NOT a respecter of when someone was born.

                        God recognizes ONE AND ONLY ONE THING. Are you covered with the blood of Jesus. If you are, you are His child; if you are not, you are not His child.


                        If this does not answer any question that any may have about this subject, please ask the question that you have.

                        Grace to you
                        Lou Newton
                        Bond servant of Jesus
                        Last edited by Lou Newton; August 28, 2014, 06:48 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Jules View Post
                          Lou said:



                          Just thinking out loud here, but if I may point out a few more examples...

                          Not only did The Lord take Noah and his family THROUGH the flood, but He also led Moses and the Israelites THROUGH the desert. And Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego were kept safe THROUGH the fiery furnace. Do we really believe that we are so special that we would be exempt from going THROUGH tribulation? Or is our faith so weak that we don't think we'd make it through and wishfully hope for a rapture to avoid it?
                          Hi Julie,

                          What a good comment, thanks. You are right, it is a matter of who we are trusting in. Those that are still trusting somewhat in themselves, will fear tribulation. Those who are trusting totally in The Lord will only fear not trusting in Jesus and cry out even more for Him to save them.

                          2 cor 1: 8 We do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about the hardships we suffered in the province of Asia. We were under great pressure, far beyond our ability to endure, so that we despaired even of life. 9 Indeed, in our hearts we felt the sentence of death. But this happened that we might not rely on ourselves but on God, who raises the dead.
                          Grace to you
                          Lou Newton
                          Bond servant of Jesus

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Lou Newton View Post
                            YOU ARE CORRECT THEY ARE PART OF HIS KINGDOM, AND IN MATTHEW 13 JESUS CLEARLY SAYS THOSE WHO ARE IN HIS KINGDOM WILL BE GATHERED FIRST.
                            Hey Lou,

                            I think maybe I had a synapse failure. Those who are in his kingdom will be gathered first? Aren't the tares gathered first? Who is gathered first?

                            I missed something.

                            Blessings,

                            Travis

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Lou Newton View Post

                              Let us go back to the parable and the explanation by Jesus:

                              One who sowed the good seed = Son of man, or Jesus

                              The enemy who sowed bad seed = Devil

                              Field = the world

                              Good seed = sons of the Kingdom or real Christians

                              Weeds = sons of the Devil

                              Harvest = The end of this age

                              Harvesters = angels


                              Now let us go back to the parable and put in Jesus for the man who sowed good seed, Devil for the one who sowed the bad seed, etc; Check me and make sure that I have put the right definitions in for the right words that Jesus used.

                              The Parable of the Weeds - (with the definitions of Jesus put in)

                              24Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like Jesus, who sowed good seed in his world. 25But while everyone was sleeping, the Devil came and sowed sons of his kingdom among the sons of the Kingdom of Jesus, and went away. 26When the followers of Jesus matured, then the followers of the Devil also appeared.
                              27"The angels of Jesus came to him and said, 'Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the followers of the Devil come from ?'
                              28" 'The Devil did this,' Jesus replied.
                              "The angels asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?'
                              29" 'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the followers of Satan, you may root up my followers with them. 30Let both grow together until the end of this age. At that time I will tell the angels: FIRST collect the followers of Satan and tie them in bundles to be burned; THEN gather my followers and bring them into my barn.' "
                              Alright, I feel like I might be nit picking here, but I want to do all the words, and see it posted here on the forum. Please forgive me for being in any way over picky. I'm going to take a little creative license to make this flow though:
                              24 Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man named Jesus, who sowed the sons of the kingdom in his world. 25 But while everyone was sleeping, the Devil came and sowed his (Satan's) sons among the sons of the Kingdom of Jesus, and went away. 26 When sons of the kingdom of Jesus matured and bore their fruit, then the sons of the Devil also appeared. 27 The angels of Jesus came to him and said, 'Sir, didn't you sow sons of the kingdom in your world? Where then did the sons of the Devil come from?' 28 'The Devil did this,' Jesus replied. "The angels asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?" 29 "No," he answered, "because while you are pulling up the sons of the Devil, you may up root the sons of the kingdom with them. 30 Let both grow together until the end of this age. At that time I will tell the angels: First collect the sons of the Devil and tie them in bundles to be burned; Then gather the sons of the kingdom of Jesus and bring them into my barn.'"

                              At the end, something specific stands out to me. No one harvests all their wheat in an instant. When harvest time comes, one starts with a section, and goes from there, gathering the bundles of wheat together as they move along, and gathering the tares up at the same rate one is moving to harvest the wheat. It's a process, that eventually ends with the field being completely harvested. Some wheat may be prepared to be harvested well before other wheat, and some tares may be pulled up well before other tares. This has been going on for some time to a certain extent, but I think if we apply this specifically to the end of the age, the tribulation period, it makes a lot of sense. Jesus isn't going to prepare all of his wheat for harvest right away, but will be preparing it throughout the 3 1/2 year period. Perhaps with a big culmination right at the end. While the wheat is being prepared though, then the tares are going to first be uprooted, gathered together, and burned with fire. Then the wheat harvest will be finished, and the wheat gathered into Jesus's 'barn.'

                              If the wheat had eyes and could see what was going on around it, it would be around to see the weeds being gathered up and burned. It would still be in the field/the world, at the time the weeds/sons of Satan were being plucked up and gathered for burning.

                              If the householder/Jesus didn't want the wheat to be there when the weeds were being burned, he would have told his servants/angels to gather the wheat and put it into the barn before burning the weeds. For some reason, he want's the weeds to be burned first. So, the weeds will be burned first.

                              Grace to you,

                              Travis

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