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  • Chronology of the War According to Josephus

    This is an astonishing account of Rome's siege on Jerusalem in 70 AD. It's a chronology in summary, the details are glossed over. It is probably much easier to get through than Josephus' full account, but it is without doubt a terrible tribulation.

    Chronology of the War According to Josephus
    http://www.josephus.org/FlJosephus2/...logy7Fall.html

  • #2
    Originally posted by Baruch View Post
    This is an astonishing account of Rome's siege on Jerusalem in 70 AD. It's a chronology in summary, the details are glossed over. It is probably much easier to get through than Josephus' full account, but it is without doubt a terrible tribulation.

    Chronology of the War According to Josephus
    http://www.josephus.org/FlJosephus2/...logy7Fall.html
    Thanks Barry. I read the whole thing.

    Comment


    • #3
      Josephus' "War of the Jews" describes the most horrific atrocities carried out by the Jews.
      The atrocities exceeded the debauchery performed by evil men.
      When reading his history one must think these people were demon possessed.
      It definitely makes one think of the locusts of Revelation 9.
      While Jerusalem was under siege by the Roman army there were factions inside the walls battling each other and destroying the food supplies of the other factions’.
      After the fall of Jerusalem the Roman general Titus prayed to the Jewish God that the debauchery he observed was not his doing but that of the Jews. Roman armies were not renowned for their compassion but for their own brutality. Yet, Titus was repulsed by what he observed in Jerusalem.
      Of particular interest are the numbers of Jews who died and were made slaves.
      Six hundred thousand Jews were enslaved into forced labor to dig out the Corinthian canal. All died in the effort.

      Percentages - considering the total population of Jews compared to the number who died and were enslaved, – this is the Great Tribulation of Matthew 24.

      No one who has read Josephus' "War of the Jews" would ever make the claim that there could be something more horrific -– maybe as horrific but never greater.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by glen smith View Post
        Josephus' "War of the Jews" describes the most horrific atrocities carried out by the Jews.
        The atrocities exceeded the debauchery performed by evil men.
        When reading his history one must think these people were demon possessed.
        It definitely makes one think of the locusts of Revelation 9.
        While Jerusalem was under siege by the Roman army there were factions inside the walls battling each other and destroying the food supplies of the other factions’.
        After the fall of Jerusalem the Roman general Titus prayed to the Jewish God that the debauchery he observed was not his doing but that of the Jews. Roman armies were not renowned for their compassion but for their own brutality. Yet, Titus was repulsed by what he observed in Jerusalem.
        Of particular interest are the numbers of Jews who died and were made slaves.
        Six hundred thousand Jews were enslaved into forced labor to dig out the Corinthian canal. All died in the effort.

        Percentages - considering the total population of Jews compared to the number who died and were enslaved, – this is the Great Tribulation of Matthew 24.

        No one who has read Josephus' "War of the Jews" would ever make the claim that there could be something more horrific -– maybe as horrific but never greater.
        Hi Glen,

        You make claims of the motives, the preconceived ideas, and the abilities of others. I think it is one thing to ask if someone has a preconceived idea, but quite another to accuse. Your statement it totally wrong, because I will make the claim that there will be a tribulation greater than what took place in 70 AD. Why do I make this claim, because Jesus said it would take place. Why do I say that Jesus said that it would take place ? :

        I will answer that question yet again:

        Jesus said that there would be a tribulation greater than has ever taken place, and greater than ever will be again.

        21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.
        Now you claim that this took place in 70 AD.

        BUT Jesus also said He would return immediately after that tribulation.

        So you claim that Jesus did return in some way after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

        But Jesus made it very clear that if anyone tries to tell us that he returned, NOT to believe them:

        22“If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.25 See, I have told you ahead of time.
        26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
        WE see that Jesus told us that EVERYONE would SEE His return and His return would be VISIBLE, just as the lightning is.

        29“Immediately after the distress of those days

        “‘the sun will be darkened,
        and the moon will not give its light;
        the stars will fall from the sky,
        and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’

        30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
        We see here that Jesus told us that all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

        Are you actually claiming that all the people of the earth seen Jesus return and also mourned.


        31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
        Are you claiming that Jesus already sent His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

        Paul fought against this heresy when some claimed that the Lord had already returned.

        You act as this is a settled issue and everyone agrees with your claim. IT is NOT a settled issue, the owner of this web site does not agree with you, for one.

        Please do NOT make claims like this on this web site. This is at least a debatable issue. I for one can not see how anyone can think that The Lord Jesus has already returned when He made it so very clear that everyone in the world would see and know when He did return.

        Edit: Anyone who reads Josephus should also see that he is an arrogant man who often does not tell the truth. There are many things in his account that have proven to be not true. I would not take anything written in his account as totally true. There may be some value is reading his account, but anyone should be very careful not to take his account as totally true. He considered himself a "Jeremiah", but he was NOT a prophet chosen by God.

        The destruction of Jerusalem was a very terrible event and made far worse by the Jews themselves. But anyone who is a serious student of history knows that there are many very terrible events in human history. The natives of what is now Mexico piled human hearts up in great piles that made the Spanish literally vomit. The Spanish were known for being very cruel, but could not stomach the natives of Mexico. Some of the Leaders of Islam piled human skulls in heaps so large that the accounts are hard to fathom.

        Natural death is a terrible thing to most and many can not imagine anything worse. The natural is easy for us to see, but the spiritual is only seen by a few. Spiritual death is FAR WORSE because it is eternal.

        A great tribulation where people die a eternal spiritual death rather than a natural death would be a far greater tribulation.

        That great tribulation is yet to come, or at least if it is upon us, it is not over yet, because The Lord Jesus has not yet returned to this earth in power and glory which He promised He would do.

        We live in a nation where Jesus is mocked daily. The largest "Christian" church in this nation is run by a false prophet. The Pope comes to our nation and praises a POTUS that is a Muslim traitor and claims that Jesus and Allah are the same God. Homosexuals and cross dressers are praised on TV daily. I see these things as far worse than what took place in Jerusalem in 70 AD.

        In Jerusalem itself there was an event far worse than it's destruction in 70 AD. That is when the Jews crucified our dear Lord on that terrible cross.

        Lou Newton
        Last edited by Lou Newton; August 11th, 2017, 12:17 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          1 Thessalonians 4

          15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

          16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

          17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


          18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
          Notice the some of the same words a Jesus used in Matthew 24:

          And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Lou Newton View Post

            Notice the some of the same words a Jesus used in Matthew 24:

            And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
            Are the angels with a loud trumpet call the same as the archangel and the trump of God?

            At the time Jesus spoke Matthew 24, the elect of the Gentiles still had to be gathered by the preaching of the Gospel. The age of the Gentiles had not yet come. God's eternal plan had not fully be revealed, it was still veiled even to the apostles. The Gentiles were scattered at Babel, and they were to be reclaimed from the ends of the heavens to which they'd been scattered. We're still in that age.

            At the time of these sayings and before, angels were also symbolic of priests, pastors, and ministers. It's equally as likely one could interpret these angles thus.

            Most of the popular church, the end times franchises, and the heathen myth spinners rely heavily on Matthew 24. Almost everyone who is expecting a certain end times script is expecting this one, joining it with Revelation and select other verses to reinforce their doctrine. That alone clued me in that something is very wrong with this. Tim LaHaye, Left Behind, Council for National Policy, who was not a friend of Christ or His flock, ran with this narrative and was pushing it big time in Washington DC. CNP is still using this to shape their national and global politics, though LaHaye has passed on. CNP is very secretive about is members, but some of the names would make your skin crawl; Bushes, Olly North, Pat Robertson, etc. It behooves us to reexamine our eschatology and disengage from the mainstream script. They are using it to deceive, and Matthew-24-as-end-times is a main ingredient.

            Comment


            • #7
              Ugh. I didn't intend to lump others into the same mire pit as those miscreants. My point was that those unregenerates, who are passing themselves off as conservative Christians in DC to spend as political capital, read the scriptures and get this meaning from it AND they are shaping the world by it. God is allowing it for now, so it must be His will at work. Spiritual texts must be read with spiritual eyes. There is a lot of confirmation from all over reinforcing a certain end times narrative, indicating there is a common spirit at work. If every joe can walk away with understanding just by a surface reading of Matthew 24, that can't be right. Even so, I have to remind myself that I used to believe these things. I'm just keenly aware of this because my view on theology and eschatology differs from most people nowadays.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Baruch View Post

                Are the angels with a loud trumpet call the same as the archangel and the trump of God?

                At the time Jesus spoke Matthew 24, the elect of the Gentiles still had to be gathered by the preaching of the Gospel. The age of the Gentiles had not yet come. God's eternal plan had not fully be revealed, it was still veiled even to the apostles. The Gentiles were scattered at Babel, and they were to be reclaimed from the ends of the heavens to which they'd been scattered. We're still in that age.

                At the time of these sayings and before, angels were also symbolic of priests, pastors, and ministers. It's equally as likely one could interpret these angles thus.

                Most of the popular church, the end times franchises, and the heathen myth spinners rely heavily on Matthew 24. Almost everyone who is expecting a certain end times script is expecting this one, joining it with Revelation and select other verses to reinforce their doctrine. That alone clued me in that something is very wrong with this. Tim LaHaye, Left Behind, Council for National Policy, who was not a friend of Christ or His flock, ran with this narrative and was pushing it big time in Washington DC. CNP is still using this to shape their national and global politics, though LaHaye has passed on. CNP is very secretive about is members, but some of the names would make your skin crawl; Bushes, Olly North, Pat Robertson, etc. It behooves us to reexamine our eschatology and disengage from the mainstream script. They are using it to deceive, and Matthew-24-as-end-times is a main ingredient.
                Hi Barry,

                Are the angels with a loud trumpet call the same as the archangel and the trump of God?

                Yes, I think so. All moves of God are started by God. God never follows, but leads. The angels follow the loud trumpet call, which is from God. The Archangel is the First Angel who is The Angel of The Lord or God. So in both cases it is the loud trumpet call from God and the angels follow.

                At the time of these sayings and before, angels were also symbolic of priests, pastors, and ministers. It's equally as likely one could interpret these angles thus.

                Mere men might mistake men for angels, but God does not. Certainly men can not gather the elect from the heavens. The Lord is speaking of angels from heaven.

                At the time Jesus spoke Matthew 24, the elect of the Gentiles still had to be gathered by the preaching of the Gospel. The age of the Gentiles had not yet come. God's eternal plan had not fully be revealed, it was still veiled even to the apostles. The Gentiles were scattered at Babel, and they were to be reclaimed from the ends of the heavens to which they'd been scattered. We're still in that age.

                To me this argument supports that the Lord has not yet returned. The Lord said in Matthew 24 that He would return AFTER the gospel had been preached to the whole world and He would gather the elect from the four corners of the earth when He returned. This definitely had not been accomplished before or after 70 AD.

                Most of the popular church, the end times franchises, and the heathen myth spinners rely heavily on Matthew 24. Almost everyone who is expecting a certain end times script is expecting this one, joining it with Revelation and select other verses to reinforce their doctrine. That alone clued me in that something is very wrong with this. Tim LaHaye, Left Behind, Council for National Policy, who was not a friend of Christ or His flock, ran with this narrative and was pushing it big time in Washington DC. CNP is still using this to shape their national and global politics, though LaHaye has passed on. CNP is very secretive about is members, but some of the names would make your skin crawl; Bushes, Olly North, Pat Robertson, etc. It behooves us to reexamine our eschatology and disengage from the mainstream script. They are using it to deceive, and Matthew-24-as-end-times is a main ingredient.

                I am thankful you posted the next post. I sure do not want to be put in the same group as LaHaye. I met the men once and it was similar to meeting Ted Kennedy. Neither man looked me in the eye and looked right past me when he shook my hand. The arrogance attitude was very obvious. LaHaye, and many others that have the same pretrib rapture doctrine, do NOT agree with Matthew 24.

                A large part of the church has swallowed this error. They seem to believe what they want to believe instead of what Jesus said. Jesus clearly said that He would return AFTER the Great tribulation instead of before. When He returns He will gather the elect. The pretrib rapture is a great error. Their error is no reason the reject the truth that He will return after the great tribulation which has not yet taken place.
                Last edited by Lou Newton; August 12th, 2017, 10:18 AM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Lou Newton View Post

                  Hi Glen,

                  You make claims of the motives, the preconceived ideas, and the abilities of others. I think it is one thing to ask if someone has a preconceived idea, but quite another to accuse. Your statement it totally wrong, because I will make the claim that there will be a tribulation greater than what took place in 70 AD. Why do I make this claim, because Jesus said it would take place. Why do I say that Jesus said that it would take place ? :

                  I will answer that question yet again:

                  Jesus said that there would be a tribulation greater than has ever taken place, and greater than ever will be again.



                  Now you claim that this took place in 70 AD.

                  BUT Jesus also said He would return immediately after that tribulation.

                  So you claim that Jesus did return in some way after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

                  But Jesus made it very clear that if anyone tries to tell us that he returned, NOT to believe them:





                  WE see that Jesus told us that EVERYONE would SEE His return and His return would be VISIBLE, just as the lightning is.



                  We see here that Jesus told us that all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

                  Are you actually claiming that all the people of the earth seen Jesus return and also mourned.




                  Are you claiming that Jesus already sent His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

                  Paul fought against this heresy when some claimed that the Lord had already returned.

                  You act as this is a settled issue and everyone agrees with your claim. IT is NOT a settled issue, the owner of this web site does not agree with you, for one.

                  Please do NOT make claims like this on this web site. This is at least a debatable issue. I for one can not see how anyone can think that The Lord Jesus has already returned when He made it so very clear that everyone in the world would see and know when He did return.

                  Edit: Anyone who reads Josephus should also see that he is an arrogant man who often does not tell the truth. There are many things in his account that have proven to be not true. I would not take anything written in his account as totally true. There may be some value is reading his account, but anyone should be very careful not to take his account as totally true. He considered himself a "Jeremiah", but he was NOT a prophet chosen by God.

                  The destruction of Jerusalem was a very terrible event and made far worse by the Jews themselves. But anyone who is a serious student of history knows that there are many very terrible events in human history. The natives of what is now Mexico piled human hearts up in great piles that made the Spanish literally vomit. The Spanish were known for being very cruel, but could not stomach the natives of Mexico. Some of the Leaders of Islam piled human skulls in heaps so large that the accounts are hard to fathom.

                  Natural death is a terrible thing to most and many can not imagine anything worse. The natural is easy for us to see, but the spiritual is only seen by a few. Spiritual death is FAR WORSE because it is eternal.

                  A great tribulation where people die a eternal spiritual death rather than a natural death would be a far greater tribulation.

                  That great tribulation is yet to come, or at least if it is upon us, it is not over yet, because The Lord Jesus has not yet returned to this earth in power and glory which He promised He would do.

                  We live in a nation where Jesus is mocked daily. The largest "Christian" church in this nation is run by a false prophet. The Pope comes to our nation and praises a POTUS that is a Muslim traitor and claims that Jesus and Allah are the same God. Homosexuals and cross dressers are praised on TV daily. I see these things as far worse than what took place in Jerusalem in 70 AD.

                  In Jerusalem itself there was an event far worse than it's destruction in 70 AD. That is when the Jews crucified our dear Lord on that terrible cross.

                  Lou Newton
                  Technically, by definition the contention could be made that I made a “claim” in that no supporting details were enumerated. But to the contrary, the thought is that Josephus’ “War of the Jews” is a reference supporting my interpretation, therefore, not a claim.

                  It seems to me there are many issues concerning biblical interpretations that are not a “settled issue.” Since I am in the dark in my understanding of what should constitutes a “settled issue” I will attempt to avoid the posting of definitive, interpretive statements about the Bible on the Jesus Christ Crucified Forum.

                  I apologize for thinking I had the leeway to post my opinions as long as I did not post on the doctrines of Divinity and Christology concerning the Trinity or Lou'’s interpretation of the term “"word”" as meaning divinity. Contending with Lou on these and some other interpretations has not been beneficial. Therefore, I intended not to be contentious. The intentions were to avoid contending over interpretations known to be dogmas for Lou or the owner of this web site. It was not recognized that there were also restrictions on Eschatology (last things) or Matthew 24 because these are unsettled issues. It also seems translation issues, textual issues, and English version issues are now prohibited.

                  Generally, the purpose has been to avoid definitive doctrinal statements while providing resources and perspectives so forum members might increase in understanding. It is apparent a definitive statement was made about the Great Tribulation which is in disagreement with Lou or the owner of this web site. I apologize for making such a definitive statement which violates their dogma or that which is not considered by everyone as a “settled issue.” The statement about the Great Tribulation of Matthew 24 was not intended to imply the issue of its interpretation was settled, but, rather to state when I understand the Great Tribulation took place.

                  Concerning the interpretation of the eschatology of Matthew 24, my hope in previously posting a portion of the “Olivet Discourse” from Matthew 24 along with the parallel passages from Mark and Luke was that some members of the Jesus Christ Crucified Forum might use this resource to deconstruct the combined teachings in the Olivet Discourse into the two component parts and to use the parallel passages of Mark 13 and Luke 21 to aid in clarification. This seems to me a necessary step if the Olivet Discourse is to be correctly understood. When providing this resource an opinion for the interpretation was avoided which follows my general purpose – which is not to be contentious. However, when another topic of Josephus’ “War of the Jews” was posted (which is a historical resource for the Jewish tribulation occurring within the generation after such a destruction was predicted by the Lord Jesus in Matthew, Mark, and Luke) this supported my “claim” but did not seem to me to be contentious in that no argumentative details for the interpretation were made other than the referenced “War of the Jews.”

                  Also, the posting of the topic “What you believe about the Bible is not inspired” is another example of offering perspective and resources without making a definitive doctrinal statement.

                  Again, I apologize for posting a “claim” which is an unsettled issue, and I will attempt to avoid the posting of definitive, interpretive statements about the Bible on the Jesus Christ Crucified Forum.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Glen, let me ask you this question:

                    Which is most important: if a large portion of the church is being taught that they no longer sin, or when the tribulation took place.

                    Does "when the tribulation took place" compare to the fact that a large portion of the church is given sermon after sermon that ignore the cross of Christ.

                    There has been many pages and many articles about the timing of the tribulation while you have ignored the other two issues. I have tried to point to these other issues only to be ignored.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Lou Newton View Post

                      Hi Glen,

                      You make claims of the motives, the preconceived ideas, and the abilities of others. I think it is one thing to ask if someone has a preconceived idea, but quite another to accuse. Your statement it totally wrong, because I will make the claim that there will be a tribulation greater than what took place in 70 AD. Why do I make this claim, because Jesus said it would take place. Why do I say that Jesus said that it would take place ? :

                      I will answer that question yet again:

                      Jesus said that there would be a tribulation greater than has ever taken place, and greater than ever will be again.



                      Now you claim that this took place in 70 AD.

                      BUT Jesus also said He would return immediately after that tribulation.

                      So you claim that Jesus did return in some way after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

                      But Jesus made it very clear that if anyone tries to tell us that he returned, NOT to believe them:





                      WE see that Jesus told us that EVERYONE would SEE His return and His return would be VISIBLE, just as the lightning is.



                      We see here that Jesus told us that all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

                      Are you actually claiming that all the people of the earth seen Jesus return and also mourned.




                      Are you claiming that Jesus already sent His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

                      Paul fought against this heresy when some claimed that the Lord had already returned.

                      You act as this is a settled issue and everyone agrees with your claim. IT is NOT a settled issue, the owner of this web site does not agree with you, for one.

                      Please do NOT make claims like this on this web site. This is at least a debatable issue. I for one can not see how anyone can think that The Lord Jesus has already returned when He made it so very clear that everyone in the world would see and know when He did return.

                      Edit: Anyone who reads Josephus should also see that he is an arrogant man who often does not tell the truth. There are many things in his account that have proven to be not true. I would not take anything written in his account as totally true. There may be some value is reading his account, but anyone should be very careful not to take his account as totally true. He considered himself a "Jeremiah", but he was NOT a prophet chosen by God.

                      The destruction of Jerusalem was a very terrible event and made far worse by the Jews themselves. But anyone who is a serious student of history knows that there are many very terrible events in human history. The natives of what is now Mexico piled human hearts up in great piles that made the Spanish literally vomit. The Spanish were known for being very cruel, but could not stomach the natives of Mexico. Some of the Leaders of Islam piled human skulls in heaps so large that the accounts are hard to fathom.

                      Natural death is a terrible thing to most and many can not imagine anything worse. The natural is easy for us to see, but the spiritual is only seen by a few. Spiritual death is FAR WORSE because it is eternal.

                      A great tribulation where people die a eternal spiritual death rather than a natural death would be a far greater tribulation.

                      That great tribulation is yet to come, or at least if it is upon us, it is not over yet, because The Lord Jesus has not yet returned to this earth in power and glory which He promised He would do.

                      We live in a nation where Jesus is mocked daily. The largest "Christian" church in this nation is run by a false prophet. The Pope comes to our nation and praises a POTUS that is a Muslim traitor and claims that Jesus and Allah are the same God. Homosexuals and cross dressers are praised on TV daily. I see these things as far worse than what took place in Jerusalem in 70 AD.

                      In Jerusalem itself there was an event far worse than it's destruction in 70 AD. That is when the Jews crucified our dear Lord on that terrible cross.

                      Lou Newton
                      ----------------------------------------------
                      This is a reply FYI.
                      An examination of a few of the on line commentaries on Matthew 24:15-22 found the following ones provided the idea that what is described in this passage occurred in A.D. 70.

                      Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
                      Clarke's Commentary
                      Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
                      Meyer's NT Commentary
                      Benson Commentary
                      Matthew Henry's Commentary
                      Expositor's Greek Testament -– also on my shelf
                      Barnes' Notes on the Bible - Testament – also on my computer
                      Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
                      Matthew Poole's Commentary
                      Bengel's Gnomen
                      Pulpit Commentary
                      Vincent's Word Studies Testament –- also on my shelf
                      Greek Testament Critical Exegetical Commentary –- Alford

                      Other commentaries on my shelf which attribute this passage to A.D.70
                      The Broadman Bible Commentary
                      Boice, James Montgomery. The Gospel of Matthew: An Expositional Commentary (2 volumes)
                      Carson, D. A. The Expositor's Bible Commentary: Matthew (2 volumes)
                      France, R. T. The Gospel of Matthew (NICNT)
                      Chilton, David. Days of Vengeance
                      Robertson, A. T. Word Pictures in the New Testament

                      Last edited by glen smith; November 6th, 2017, 03:25 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        That is quite a list. Thanks, Glen.

                        The OT passages about the Lord venting His wrath upon the ungodly are a terror. When I read them with an eye towards the destruction of 70 AD I find great pity for that people. They had God among them for centuries, and they despised Him. It reminds me of the angels who saw God face to face, they enjoyed His presence, and still they despised Him. They deserved wrath, just national Israel did, just as we all do. Praise God, praise Jesus we have a Savior! It is a great miracle, great mercy, great grace that some are saved, that some did not harden their hearts in unbelief. Israel was a warning to all of mankind.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Baruch, your reply made me think again about this subject.
                          Early Church Fathers commented on Matthew 24.

                          One of the most articulate and early spokesmen of the view that the events of Matthew 24 had been fulfilled in the first century is the “Father of Church History ” and the author of Demonstratio Evangelica (The Defense of the Gospel), Eusebius of Caesarea (c. 260–341).

                          Matt 24:3-34 Clement of Alexandria (150-215)
                          "But our Master did not prophesy after this fashion; but, as I have already said, being a prophet by an inborn and every-flowing Spirit, and knowing all things at all times, He confidently set forth, plainly as I said before, sufferings, places, appointed times, manners, limits. Accordingly, therefore, prophesying concerning the temple, He said: "See ye these buildings? Verily I say to you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another which shall not be taken away [Matt. 24:3]; and this generation shall not pass until the destruction begin [Matt. 24:34]. . . ."

                          “And in like manner He spoke in plain words the things that were straightway to happen, which we can now see with our eyes, in order that the accomplishment might be among those to whom the word was spoken.” (Clementine Homilia, 3:15. See Roberts and Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers, 8:241.)

                          Here are additional commentaries on Matthew 24:15-22 which provide the idea that what is described in this passage occurred in A.D. 70.

                          John Calvin Commentary
                          Wesley’s Explanatory Notes on the Bible – also on my computer
                          B. W. Johnson’s Bible Commentary
                          John Lightfoot’s Bible Commentary
                          Gary DeMar Last Day Madness

                          Of course, this was once known as the Protestant view since virtually every Protestant Reformer held it. One would probably be safe in stating that every commentary on Matthew written by a Reformer presented this view of Matthew 24. Today, as part of the Protestant view it is known as the historicist view which includes the prophecies in the Gospels and in Revelation.

                          The historicist was the view virtually held by every Protestant before 1830. Since the inception of premillennial dispensationalism in the 1830’s which presented all of Matthew 24 and 25 as future events to 1830 there has been a steady abandonment of this position by them. Since the 1990’s this change in position has become the norm for the modern dispensationalist scholars although not for those non scholars taught in the previous decades. So, the public keeps hearing the outdated position no longer held by their own scholars. This change occurred because of the excellent arguments against their position and that their position was indefensible. Those who have not changed have resorted to extremely convoluted explanation for their defense. This was not an essential issue for dispensationalist since they could change their view on Matthew 24 without changing their overall eschatology.

                          The view that Matthew 24:15-22 describes events which occurred in A.D. 70 is today the generally held view among evangelical scholars and in recent commentaries without any regard to their eschatological position. As examples both Gary DeMar's Last Day Madness and David Chilton's Days of Vengeance are forms of Reformed post millennialism called either Reconstructionism and dominion theology. This process of interpreting Matthew 24 is the result of the best Bible interpretation winning out.

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                          • #14
                            In consideration of the works by Flavius Josephus

                            This post is way too long for most to read. The perspective presented is important for several reasons which should be obvious. One reason that is not generally recognized is that the works by Flavius Josephus were for several centuries the second most read books after the Bible. Accordingly, the influence on biblical interpretation has been significant.

                            Replying to this in Post # 4
                            “Edit: Anyone who reads Josephus should also see that he is an arrogant man who often does not tell the truth. There are many things in his account that have proven to be not true. I would not take anything written in his account as totally true. There may be some value is reading his account, but anyone should be very careful not to take his account as totally true. He considered himself a "Jeremiah", but he was NOT a prophet chosen by God.”

                            The contention was with the following observation by Flavius Josephus, "To narrate their enormities in detail is impossible; but, to put it briefly, no other city (Jerusalem) every endured such miseries, nor since the world began has there been a generation more prolific in crime" as applicable to Matthew 24:21 NASB 21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. (also Mark 13:19 & Luke 21:20-22). It seems it was for this application the discounting of Josephus was presented in the quote from Post #4.

                            While everything in Post #4 is an accurate statement it does not follow that Flavius Josephus cannot be a reliable historian. Josephus’ account of a war marked by treachery and atrocity is a superbly detailed and evocative record of the Jewish rebellion against Rome between A.D. 66 and 70. Originally a Jewish rebel leader, Josephus changed sides after he was captured to become a Rome-appointed negotiator, and so was uniquely placed to observe these turbulent events, from the siege of Jerusalem to the final heroic resistance and mass suicides at Masada. His account provides much of what we know about the history of the Jews under Roman rule, with vivid portraits of such key figures as the Emperor Vespasian and Herod the Great. Often self-justifying and divided in its loyalties, The Jewish War nevertheless remains one of the most immediate accounts of war, its heroism and its horrors, ever written
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                            It should be stressed that Josephus is, according to ancient criteria, an excellent historian. Authors like Polybius of Megalopolis and Lucian have published treatises on the writing of history, and Josephus lives up to the standards they set. He knows the country he is describing, he has experience as commander of an army, and he understands the issues of the war. Moreover, he interviewed representatives of both sides. This is more than can be said about his younger contemporary Tacitus, who is usually regarded as a greater historian. As we will see below, modern scholars have criticized Josephus, though.
                            The Jewish War was written under imperial auspices. Vespasian and Titus gave the historian access to the imperial archives and to the logbook of their campaign. This enabled Josephus to write a reliable story, even about events at places where he had never been. At the same time, imperial patronage made the story unreliable. Vespasian's bid for power is presented in a favorable way; Titus is a valiant warrior whose heroism is matched only by his kindness towards the victims of the war.
                            Flavius Josephus' kindness towards his Roman benefactors does not mean that he is negative about the Jews. On the contrary, he has pity with 'the innocent' in Jerusalem, who are trapped inside a city under siege and cannot leave. At great length, he describes the atrocities to which they are subjected.
                            But his sympathy does not include all Jews. The responsibility for all the bloodshed rests squarely on the shoulders of the people that he describes as 'brigands', 'madmen', 'desperado's', or 'bandits': those are the invectives he has in store for violent nationalists like the Zealots, the Sicarians and men like John of Gischala. It is no coincidence that the Jewish War ends with a speech of the leader of the rebels at Masada, the Sicarian Eleaser, who more or less admits that all violence was a result of nationalistic agitation and also admits that God is angry. (The speech is, of course, written by Flavius Josephus himself. Almost no one survived the capture of Masada, and the historian can never have received a report of Eleaser's last words.)
                            The common people with their silly nationalistic ideas, their religious intolerance and their aggressive behavior are responsible for the disaster. The Jewish aristocrats -to which Flavius Josephus belonged- are of course not to blame for the war. The same applies to war crimes. These are invariably committed by the rank and file, never by their officers.
                            In the first century, there were serious economic problems in Judaea. The rabbinical sources indicate that the Temple authorities were widely regarded as corrupt. In this conflict between the rich elite and the poor peasants, the Romans sided with the elite, as they always did. Peasant resistance against the Temple authorities coincided with resistance against the Romans. The war that started in 66 was not only a national revolt against a greedy emperor and his tactless governor, but also a class war among the Jews. Josephus, like every aristocrat, had no real sense of identification with the dispossessed and oppressed peasantry; ultimately, he did not understand the true cause of the war he described.
                            http://www.livius.org/sources/about/...us-jewish-war/
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                            Also the link to the articles by G. J. Golberg as part of Post #1 of this topic (http://www.josephus.org/FlJosephus2/...logy7Fall.html) provides the criticisms of what aspects of the writings of Josephus were bent as does The Flavius Josephus Home Page (http://www.josephus.org/home.htm).
                            He is accused of being a propagandist for the Roman generals Vespasian and Titus. His historical account of the progress of the war was from observation and from the actual records kept by the staff of the generals. His descriptions of the horrors of the war are not what are in question. Such history, including propaganda was the norm. There is an exception to this norm. The Old Testament could never be considered propaganda for the Israeli state for it records their failures.
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                            The more critical issue of Josephus’ writings has to do with a single passage about the Lord Jesus rather than the self-justifying and propaganda.
                            Between 75 and 79, Josephus published The War of the Jews, in which he recounted the events preceding the insurrection and the whole course of the war. This work is most useful in the study of the historical background of Jesus’ times and though it is marred by various mistakes, we have nothing that can take its place. Between 93 and 94, Josephus published his Antiquities of the Jews, in which he relates the history of the Hebrew nation from its beginnings up to the outbreak of the war against Rome. A little after 95, he published the Contra Apionen, a defense of Judaism, and after 100 he published the Life (his own) which is an apologia for his politics.

                            In these writings, though he has a great deal to say of Jewish or Roman personages named in the gospels, he mentions Jesus or the Christians only three times. Once he speaks with great respect of John the Baptist and his death. Again he mentions with equal respect the violent death in about A.D. 66 of James, “the brother of Jesus, called the Christ.” About the authenticity of these two passages there are no reasonable doubts despite the hesitancy of a few modern scholars in their regard.

                            This is not the case with the third passage from the Antiquities of the Jews, a literal translation which follows:
                            “Now about this time there was a certain Jesus, a wise man, if indeed he must be called a man. He was in fact the worker of extraordinary things, the teacher of men who accept the truth with pleasure. And he drew to himself many of the Jews and many Greeks also. This man was the Christ. And when Pilate, because the principal men among us denounced him, had punished him on the cross, those who had loved him from the beginning did not cease. In fact, he appeared to them on the third day alive once more, the divine prophets having already spoken these and thousands of other wonderful things concerning him. And even today the tribe of those who from him are called Christians has grown no less.” (Antiquities of the Jews, XVIII, 63-64)

                            This passage was not questioned until the sixteenth century. The first doubts cast upon it were based entirely on internal evidence – that is, it did not seem that a Jew and a Pharisee like Josephus would do Jesus so much honor. The conclusion, therefore, was that the passage had been inserted by some unknown Christian hand. The question has been debated down to our own times, and there are champions and adversaries of the authenticity of the passage in every camp.

                            Quoted from Life of Christ by Giuseppe Ricciotti. Translated by Alba I. Zizzamia, D. IN L. (Rom.). Collector’s edition published by the Easton Press; Norwalk, Connecticut. pp. 45-46
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                            There are impressive linguistic similarity between this quote of the Antiquities of the Jews, XVIII, 63-64 with Luke 24:19-21; 24:25-27 except for the underlined phrases which were likely added by a Christian scribe in the third or fourth century. Josephus and Luke relied upon the same source or Josephus used the passage from Luke. It is likely the source was the oral catechism of the churches which believers learned before there was a New Testament. This detailed comparison has only become possible through the use of modern computing technology. For this presentation see http://www.josephus.org/testimonium.htm

                            It is this passage about Jesus from the Antiquities of the Jews and not The War of the Jews for which a large amount of the criticism is aimed in that the text is said to be corrupted by a Christian scribe and cannot be used as a historical account of Jesus. This issue has been addressed and does not reduce the reliability of the historical progress of the war or the record of the horrors. As quoted from www.livius “It should be stressed that Josephus is, according to ancient criteria, an excellent historian.”

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                            • #15
                              Thanks for expose Glen.

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