Scatter the power of the Holy People?

[Blane]

Anybody have any insight or input regarding the meaning of Daniel 12:7b? That is, what is implied by the scattering of the power of the Holy People? Is this situation directly tied to the events of Rev 13, whereby the beast is given unprecedented power and authority over the whole earth? Or are Dan 12:7b and Rev 13 speaking of two separate events in human history?

Blane



DANIEL 12 (Geneva 1599)
Of the deliverance of the Church by Christ.¹ And at that ^[a]time shall Michael stand up, the great prince, which standeth for the children of thy people, and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there began to be a nation unto that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, everyone that shall be found written in the book.
² And many ^[b]of them that sleep in the dust of the earth, shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and perpetual contempt.
³ And they that be ^[c]wise, shall shine, as the brightness of the firmament: and they that ^[d]turn many to righteousness, shall shine as the stars, forever and ever.
⁴ But thou, O Daniel, ^[e]shut up the words, and seal the book ^[f]till the end of the time: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
⁵ ¶ Then I Daniel looked, and behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the brink of the ^[g]river, and the other on that side of the brink of the river.
⁶ And one said unto the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, When shall be the end of these wonders?
⁷ And I heard the man clothed in linen which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his ^[h]right hand, and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth forever, that it shall tarry for a ^[i]time two times and an half: and when he shall have accomplished ^[j]to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

⁸ Then I heard it, but I understood it not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
⁹ And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up, and sealed, till the end of the time.
¹⁰ Many shall be purified, made white, and tried: but the wicked shall do wickedly, and none of the wicked shall have understanding: but the wise shall understand.
¹¹ And from the time that the ^[k]daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abominable desolation set up, there ^[l]shall be a thousand, two hundred and ninety days.
¹² Blessed is he that waiteth and cometh to the thousand, three hundred and ^[m]five and thirty days.
¹³ But go ^[n]thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest and stand up in thy lot, at the end of the days.

[Lou Newton]

Michael

Anybody have any insight or input regarding the meaning of Daniel 12:7b? That is, what is implied by the scattering of the power of the Holy People? Is this situation directly tied to the events of Rev 13, whereby the beast is given unprecedented power and authority over the whole earth? Or are Dan 12:7b and Rev 13 speaking of two separate events in human history?

Blane



DANIEL 12 (Geneva 1599)
Of the deliverance of the Church by Christ.¹ And at that ^[a]time shall Michael stand up, the great prince, which standeth for the children of thy people, and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there began to be a nation unto that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, everyone that shall be found written in the book.
² And many ^[b]of them that sleep in the dust of the earth, shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and perpetual contempt.
³ And they that be ^[c]wise, shall shine, as the brightness of the firmament: and they that ^[d]turn many to righteousness, shall shine as the stars, forever and ever.
⁴ But thou, O Daniel, ^[e]shut up the words, and seal the book ^[f]till the end of the time: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
⁵ ¶ Then I Daniel looked, and behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the brink of the ^[g]river, and the other on that side of the brink of the river.
⁶ And one said unto the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, When shall be the end of these wonders?
⁷ And I heard the man clothed in linen which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his ^[h]right hand, and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth forever, that it shall tarry for a ^[i]time two times and an half: and when he shall have accomplished ^[j]to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

⁸ Then I heard it, but I understood it not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
⁹ And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up, and sealed, till the end of the time.
¹⁰ Many shall be purified, made white, and tried: but the wicked shall do wickedly, and none of the wicked shall have understanding: but the wise shall understand.
¹¹ And from the time that the ^[k]daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abominable desolation set up, there ^[l]shall be a thousand, two hundred and ninety days.
¹² Blessed is he that waiteth and cometh to the thousand, three hundred and ^[m]five and thirty days.
¹³ But go ^[n]thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest and stand up in thy lot, at the end of the days.

Let us first see if we can identify the characters in this passage:

shall Michael stand up, the great prince

Isaiah 9 1599 GB
6 For unto us a child is born, and unto us a Son is given: and the government is upon his shoulder, and he shall call his name, Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The prince of peace.

Daniel 10:13 (YLT)
13 `And the head of the kingdom of Persia is standing over-against me twenty and one days, and lo, Michael, first of the chief heads, hath come in to help me, and I have remained there near the kings of Persia;

We need to ask ourselves here, just who is the first, AND also just how many First can there be in truth.

Daniel 10:21
But I will show thee that which is decreed in the Scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

Who was Daniel's prince ? If Michael is Daniel's prince, then Daniel is his people. So Michael is the prince of everyone found written in the book. We are written in the book, so Michael is our prince. WHO IS OUR PRINCE ?

Daniel 12:1
1 Of the deliverance of the Church by Christ. And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince, which standeth for the children of thy people, and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there began to be a nation unto that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, everyone that shall be found written in the book.

Just who stands for everyone that is found written in the book ? Did God send someone else to die for us, or did he come Himself to die for us. There is no one between us and Christ. So who stands for us ? Did God send someone to stand for us, or would he come Himself to stand for us ?

Dan 12:1
¶
And at that time H6256 shall Michael H4317 stand up, H5975 the great H1419 prince H8269 which standeth H5975 for the children H1121 of thy people: H5971 and there shall be H1961 a time H6256 of trouble, H6869 such as never was since there was a nation H1471 even to that same time: H6256 and at that time H6256 thy people H5971 shall be delivered, H4422 every one that shall be found H4672 written H3789 in the book. H5612

Lexicon :: Strong's H1419 - gadowl
גָּדוֹל
Transliteration
gadowl
Pronunciation
gä·dōle' (Key)
Part of Speech
adjective, proper masculine noun, substantive
Root Word (Etymology)
From גָּדַל (H1431)
Dictionary Aids
TWOT Reference: 315d
Outline of Biblical Usage
adj
I.
great
A.
large (in magnitude and extent)
B.
in number
C.
in intensity
D.
loud (in sound)
E.
older (in age)
F.
in importance
i
important things
ii.
great, distinguished (of men)
iii.
God Himself (of God)

One possible translation of this word GREAT is God Himself.

Revelation 12:1
1 A woman 2 appeareth travailing with child, 4 whose child the dragon would devour, 7 but Michael overcometh him 9 and casteth him out, 13 and the more he is cast down and vanquished, the more fiercely he exercised his subtleties. And there appeared a great wonder in heaven: A woman clothed with the Sun, and the Moon was under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve Stars.

Just who overcame Satan ? No one but The Lord Jesus Christ.

Revelation 12:7
And there was a battle in heaven, Michael and his Angels, fought against the dragon, and the dragon fought and his angels.

Michael and HIS angels - Who do the angels belong to ? Anyone but The Lord Jesus.

There was war in heaven and Michael and Satan fought this war. Who fights Satan. Is anyone able to overcome Satan ( who is the most powerful created being) except Jesus.

Revelation 12 1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)

12 1 A woman 2 appeareth travailing with child, 4 whose child the dragon would devour, 7 but Michael overcometh him 9 and casteth him out, 13 and the more he is cast down and vanquished, the more fiercely he exercised his subtleties.

1 And [a]there appeared a great wonder in heaven: A woman clothed with the Sun, and the Moon was under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve Stars.

2 And [c]she was with child, and cried travailing in birth, and was pained ready to be delivered.

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven: [d]for behold, a great red dragon having [e]seven heads, and ten [f]horns, and seven crowns upon his heads:

4 [g]And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth. And the dragon [h]stood before the woman, which was ready to be delivered, [i]to devour her child, when she had brought it forth.

5 [j]So she brought forth a man [k]child, which should rule all nations with a rod of iron: and that her child was taken up unto God and to his throne.

6 [l]And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that [m]they should feed her there a thousand, two hundred and threescore days.

7 And there was a battle in heaven, [n]Michael and his Angels, fought against the dragon, and the dragon fought and his angels.

8 [o]But they prevailed not, neither was their [p]place found anymore in heaven.

9 And the great dragon that old serpent, called the devil and Satan, was cast out, which deceiveth all the world: he was even cast into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, [q]Now is salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

This passage tells us that Michael overcame Satan and then goes on to tell us how.

Michael is the archangel - or first angel - there is but one FIRST. Archangel means first angel.

Churches leaders call themselves:

The Holy Father - there is but one Holy Father and that is God Almighty

The Pope - or Supreme Ruler - there is but one Supreme Ruler and that is The Lord Jesus

Father - we have but one

Priest - Jesus is our priest

Archbishop - or FIRST Bishop - Jesus is the first Bishop

Pastor - Jesus is our pastor

Melchizedek Priesthood ( Mormons) - There is but one Melchizedek - or King of Righteousness.

Jesus is a Warrior that comes to save

He is the Lion of Judah

The Commander in Chief of The Lord's army

One of His Names is Michael

There is but one hero in the Bible - that is The Lord Jesus - He has given us many Names that He goes by.

Grace to you
Lou Newton

[Blane]

Let us first see if we can identify the characters in this passage:

shall Michael stand up, the great prince

Isaiah 9 1599 GB
6 For unto us a child is born, and unto us a Son is given: and the government is upon his shoulder, and he shall call his name, Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The prince of peace.

Daniel 10:13 (YLT)
13 `And the head of the kingdom of Persia is standing over-against me twenty and one days, and lo, Michael, first of the chief heads, hath come in to help me, and I have remained there near the kings of Persia;

We need to ask ourselves here, just who is the first, AND also just how many First can there be in truth.

Daniel 10:21
But I will show thee that which is decreed in the Scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

Who was Daniel's prince ? If Michael is Daniel's prince, then Daniel is his people. So Michael is the prince of everyone found written in the book. We are written in the book, so Michael is our prince. WHO IS OUR PRINCE ?

Daniel 12:1
1 Of the deliverance of the Church by Christ. And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince, which standeth for the children of thy people, and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there began to be a nation unto that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, everyone that shall be found written in the book.

Just who stands for everyone that is found written in the book ? Did God send someone else to die for us, or did he come Himself to die for us. There is no one between us and Christ. So who stands for us ? Did God send someone to stand for us, or would he come Himself to stand for us ?

Dan 12:1

And at that time H6256 shall Michael H4317 stand up, H5975 the great H1419 prince H8269 which standeth H5975 for the children H1121 of thy people: H5971 and there shall be H1961 a time H6256 of trouble, H6869 such as never was since there was a nation H1471 even to that same time: H6256 and at that time H6256 thy people H5971 shall be delivered, H4422 every one that shall be found H4672 written H3789 in the book. H5612

Lexicon :: Strong's H1419 - gadowl
גָּדוֹל
Transliteration
gadowl
Pronunciation
gä·dōle' (Key)
Part of Speech
adjective, proper masculine noun, substantive
Root Word (Etymology)
From גָּדַל (H1431)
Dictionary Aids
TWOT Reference: 315d
Outline of Biblical Usage
adj
I.
great
A.
large (in magnitude and extent)
B.
in number
C.
in intensity
D.
loud (in sound)
E.
older (in age)
F.
in importance
i
important things
ii.
great, distinguished (of men)
iii.
God Himself (of God)



One possible translation of this word GREAT is God Himself.

Revelation 12:1
1 A woman 2 appeareth travailing with child, 4 whose child the dragon would devour, 7 but Michael overcometh him 9 and casteth him out,  13 and the more he is cast down and vanquished, the more fiercely he exercised his subtleties. And there appeared a great wonder in heaven: A woman clothed with the Sun, and the Moon was under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve Stars.

Just who overcame Satan ? No one but The Lord Jesus Christ.

Revelation 12:7
And there was a battle in heaven, Michael and his Angels, fought against the dragon, and the dragon fought and his angels.

Michael and HIS angels - Who do the angels belong to ? Anyone but The Lord Jesus.

There was war in heaven and Michael and Satan fought this war. Who fights Satan. Is anyone able to overcome Satan ( who is the most powerful created being) except Jesus.

Revelation 12 1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)

12 1 A woman 2 appeareth travailing with child, 4 whose child the dragon would devour, 7 but Michael overcometh him 9 and casteth him out, 13 and the more he is cast down and vanquished, the more fiercely he exercised his subtleties.

1 And [a]there appeared a great wonder in heaven: A woman clothed with the Sun, and the Moon was under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve Stars.

2 And [c]she was with child, and cried travailing in birth, and was pained ready to be delivered.

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven: [d]for behold, a great red dragon having [e]seven heads, and ten [f]horns, and seven crowns upon his heads:

4 [g]And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth. And the dragon [h]stood before the woman, which was ready to be delivered, [i]to devour her child, when she had brought it forth.

5 [j]So she brought forth a man [k]child, which should rule all nations with a rod of iron: and that her child was taken up unto God and to his throne.

6 [l]And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that [m]they should feed her there a thousand, two hundred and threescore days.

7 And there was a battle in heaven, [n]Michael and his Angels, fought against the dragon, and the dragon fought and his angels.

8 [o]But they prevailed not, neither was their [p]place found anymore in heaven.

9 And the great dragon that old serpent, called the devil and Satan, was cast out, which deceiveth all the world: he was even cast into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, [q]Now is salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

This passage tells us that Michael overcame Satan and then goes on to tell us how.


Michael is the archangel - or first angel - there is but one FIRST. Archangel means first angel.

Churches leaders call themselves:

The Holy Father - there is but one Holy Father and that is God Almighty

The Pope - or Supreme Ruler - there is but one Supreme Ruler and that is The Lord Jesus

Father - we have but one

Priest - Jesus is our priest

Archbishop - or FIRST Bishop - Jesus is the first Bishop

Pastor - Jesus is our pastor

Melchizedek Priesthood ( Mormons) - There is but one Melchizedek - or King of Righteousness.

Jesus is a Warrior that comes to save

He is the Lion of Judah

The Commander in Chief of The Lord's army

One of His Names is Michael

There is but one hero in the Bible - that is The Lord Jesus - He has given us many Names that He goes by.

Grace to you
Lou Newton

Hi Lou,

Thanks for your response. I appreciate the time you've taken to document your statements and back them with scripture. As you know, any dispensationalist theologian on earth would be having a fit right now regarding your post. First, they would insist that Daniel 12 only refers to the physical nation of Israel, and that the church is a separate entity entirely. Some might even insist that the church is already in heaven when these things take place. They would base their resaonings on the many doctrines of men, theories, and assumptions that comprise the complex teachings known as dispensationalism. Dispensationalism didn't even become popular until about 80 years ago, and was virtually non-existent for the first 1800 years of church history. But that's a topic for another thread.

Anyway, getting back to why dispensationalists would have a cow over your post. They tend to take scripture literally whenever possible to do so. So to even consider the possibility that Michael is anyone other than the archangel Michael in heaven (Gabriel's counterpart) would be inconceivable. But you make several good points I've never considered. Namely, that Jesus Christ's credentials make Him the better candidate than the high ranking angel in scripture by the same name.

Or are you saying that every scriptural reference that speaks of Michael is actually talking about the Eternal Son of God, Jesus Christ? In other words, theologians commonly teach that God had three archangels, Michael, Gabriel, and Lucifer, but one rebelled and became Satan. Do you agree with this? Don't mean to sidetrack my own thread, but I'm just curious.

Blane

[Lou Newton]

Hi Lou,

Thanks for your response. I appreciate the time you've taken to document your statements and back them with scripture. As you know, any dispensationalist theologian on earth would be having a fit right now regarding your post. First, they would insist that Daniel 12 only refers to the physical nation of Israel, and that the church is a separate entity entirely. Some might even insist that the church is already in heaven when these things take place. They would base their resaonings on the many doctrines of men, theories, and assumptions that comprise the complex teachings known as dispensationalism. Dispensationalism didn't even become popular until about 80 years ago, and was virtually non-existent for the first 1800 years of church history. But that's a topic for another thread.

Anyway, getting back to why dispensationalists would have a cow over your post. They tend to take scripture literally whenever possible to do so. So to even consider the possibility that Michael is anyone other than the archangel Michael in heaven (Gabriel's counterpart) would be inconceivable. But you make several good points I've never considered. Namely, that Jesus Christ's credentials make Him the better candidate than the high ranking angel in scripture by the same name.

Or are you saying that every scriptural reference that speaks of Michael is actually talking about the Eternal Son of God, Jesus Christ? In other words, theologians commonly teach that God had three archangels, Michael, Gabriel, and Lucifer, but one rebelled and became Satan. Do you agree with this? Don't mean to sidetrack my own thread, but I'm just curious.

Blane

I am familiar with mere men using the term Archangel loosely to apply to more than one person. But they also believe in more than one God. So we should not be surprised.

Archangel means FIRST ANGEL. Not one of the first angels. One of the first does not even make sense. There can only be one who is first.

In these five translations there are only two places where the term ARCHANGEL is used:

1 Thessalonians 4:16

•
Living Bible
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a mighty shout and with the soul-stirring cry of the archangel and the great trumpet-call of God. And the believers who are dead will be the first to rise to meet the Lord.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

•
King James Version
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

•
American Standard Version
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

•
English Standard Version
For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

•
New International Version
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

In this passage we are clearly told it is GOD HIMSELF that descends. It goes on to tell us that he will descend with a loud voice and a trumpet call. Whose trumpet call is it, God's. The Archangel Michael descends from heaven with a loud shout and a then sounds the LAST TRUMPET. Who is that ARCHANGEL Michael, He is God Himself.

Jude 1:9

•
English Standard Version
But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you.”
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

•
American Standard Version
But Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing judgment, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

•
King James Version
Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

•
New International Version
But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”

Here is the only other place in these five translations that the term ARCHANGEL is used. It is Michael again. Some have argued that since Michael says "The Lord rebuke you" it can not be The Lord. But it is The Lord rebuking Satan, for Michael is The Lord.

But we can find a witness to this fact:

Zechariah 3:2

•
King James Version
And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

•
New International Version
The Lord said to Satan, “The Lord rebuke you, Satan! The Lord, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this man a burning stick snatched from the fire?”
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

•
English Standard Version
And the Lord said to Satan, “The Lord rebuke you, O Satan! The Lord who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is not this a brand plucked from the fire?”

We can see here that it is The Lord Himself who says, "THE LORD REBUKE YOU SATAN".

What pious man would ever dare say, "THE LORD REBUKE YOU". For he is not The Lord. He would say The Lord told me to rebuke you. It is only The Lord Himself who can truthfully say, "The Lord rebuke you".

Now this error has been taught to the church by men who have not been called and yet claim to speak for The Lord. One of them might say, "The Lord rebuke you" to someone. For they walk around as they are The Lord Himself.

But if these words would ever come from my lips, "The Lord rebuke you" it better be The Lord Himself who is speaking and NOT me. The Lord can certainly use my lips to speak whenever He pleases and has done so before. I can assure you that I was just as surprised as those that heard Him speak. It simply was NOT me speaking.

For any other being to speak for The Lord is great error. But The Lord Himself can speak whenever He pleases.

But in the scriptures above, it is not The Lord speaking through another angel. It is The Angel of The Lord Himself speaking.

When The Lord Jesus appears as The Commander in Chief of the Lord's army, He uses the Name, Michael.

Lou Newton

[Lou Newton]

Gabriel

Hi Lou,

Thanks for your response. I appreciate the time you've taken to document your statements and back them with scripture. As you know, any dispensationalist theologian on earth would be having a fit right now regarding your post. First, they would insist that Daniel 12 only refers to the physical nation of Israel, and that the church is a separate entity entirely. Some might even insist that the church is already in heaven when these things take place. They would base their resaonings on the many doctrines of men, theories, and assumptions that comprise the complex teachings known as dispensationalism. Dispensationalism didn't even become popular until about 80 years ago, and was virtually non-existent for the first 1800 years of church history. But that's a topic for another thread.

Anyway, getting back to why dispensationalists would have a cow over your post. They tend to take scripture literally whenever possible to do so. So to even consider the possibility that Michael is anyone other than the archangel Michael in heaven (Gabriel's counterpart) would be inconceivable. But you make several good points I've never considered. Namely, that Jesus Christ's credentials make Him the better candidate than the high ranking angel in scripture by the same name.

Or are you saying that every scriptural reference that speaks of Michael is actually talking about the Eternal Son of God, Jesus Christ? In other words, theologians commonly teach that God had three archangels, Michael, Gabriel, and Lucifer, but one rebelled and became Satan. Do you agree with this? Don't mean to sidetrack my own thread, but I'm just curious.

Blane

Let's now look at Gabriel:

Here are the only passages that Gabriel is mentioned in any of these five translations:

Daniel 8:16

•
American Standard Version
And I heard a man's voice between the banks of the Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

•
Living Bible
and I heard a man’s voice calling from across the river, “Gabriel, tell Daniel the meaning of his dream.”
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

•
New International Version
And I heard a man’s voice from the Ulai calling, “Gabriel, tell this man the meaning of the vision.”
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

•
English Standard Version
And I heard a man's voice between the banks of the Ulai, and it called, “Gabriel, make this man understand the vision.”
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

•
King James Version
And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Daniel 8:17

•
Living Bible
So Gabriel started toward me. But as he approached, I was too frightened to stand and fell down with my face to the ground. “Son of man,” he said, “you must understand that the events you have seen in your vision will not take place until the end times come.”
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Daniel 9:20

•
English Standard Version
[ Gabriel Brings an Answer ] While I was speaking and praying, confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my plea before the Lord my God for the holy hill of my God,
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Daniel 9:21

•
New International Version
while I was still in prayer, Gabriel, the man I had seen in the earlier vision, came to me in swift flight about the time of the evening sacrifice.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

•
American Standard Version
yea, while I was speaking in prayer, the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

•
Living Bible
Gabriel, whom I had seen in the earlier vision, flew swiftly to me at the time of the evening sacrifice
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

•
King James Version
Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

•
English Standard Version
while I was speaking in prayer, the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the first, came to me in swift flight at the time of the evening sacrifice.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Luke 1:19

•
English Standard Version
And the angel answered him, “I am Gabriel. I stand in the presence of God, and I was sent to speak to you and to bring you this good news.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

•
New International Version
The angel said to him, “I am Gabriel. I stand in the presence of God, and I have been sent to speak to you and to tell you this good news.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

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King James Version
And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

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American Standard Version
And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and I was sent to speak unto thee, and to bring thee these good tidings.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

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Living Bible
Then the angel said, “I am Gabriel! I stand in the very presence of God. It was he who sent me to you with this good news!
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Luke 1:26

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English Standard Version
[ Birth of Jesus Foretold ] In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth,
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

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New International Version
[ The Birth of Jesus Foretold ] In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee,
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

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King James Version
And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

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American Standard Version
Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

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Living Bible
The following month God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a village in Galilee,
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Luke 1:28

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Living Bible
Gabriel appeared to her and said, “Congratulations, favored lady! The Lord is with you!”
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Gabriel is never called an ARCHANGEL one time in any place he is mentioned. But we should have already known that, for we already showed that the word ARCHANGEL is only mentioned when the Bible mentions Michael.

Let us examine the passage in Luke in more context:

11 Then an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing at the right side of the altar of incense. 12 When Zechariah saw him, he was startled and was gripped with fear. 13 But the angel said to him: “Do not be afraid, Zechariah; your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you are to call him John. 14 He will be a joy and delight to you, and many will rejoice because of his birth, 15 for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born. 16 He will bring back many of the people of Israel to the Lord their God. 17 And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the parents to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous—to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”

18 Zechariah asked the angel, “How can I be sure of this? I am an old man and my wife is well along in years.”

19 The angel said to him, “I am Gabriel. I stand in the presence of God, and I have been sent to speak to you and to tell you this good news. 20 And now you will be silent and not able to speak until the day this happens, because you did not believe my words, which will come true at their appointed time.”

We can see the translation says it is AN angel of the Lord, NOT The Angel of The Lord.

It appears Gabriel is one of the angels that Jesus created. But The Angel of The Lord, is the Creator.

Lou Newton

[Lou Newton]

Lucifer

Here is the only passage a search of Lucifer brought up in five translations:

Isaiah 14 KJV - 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

He is certainly NOT called an ARCHANGEL.

There is only one ARCHANGEL or FIRSTANGEL.

Mere men give titles and take titles with little regard. They call many Captain, Pope, Chief, First, Arch, etc. But God does not use these titles with little regard. There is but ONE CAPTIAN of The Lord's Army. There is but one SUPREME RULER, there is but one CHIEF ANGEL. There is but one ARCHANGEL. There is one and only one who is FIRST.

But just as The Lord said, many men claim to be first.

Mere men want to worship many gods. But there is only One God.

Satan deceives men into thinking there are many heads:

Revelation 13:1
[ The Beast out of the Sea ] The dragon stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on its horns, and on each head a blasphemous name.

Satan tries to tell us that there are gods everywhere.

But the truth is that there is one God and he is everywhere.

Satan gives us many little gods, because he does not want to admit that there is anyone greater then he is. He avoids the truth, that there is ONE GOD WHO IS SO POWERFUL THAT HE IS EVERYWHERE, AND EVERYTHING TO EVERYONE. This truth makes Satan furious.

The Holy Spirit has never allowed me to take any kind of title. Whenever men have tried to give me a title, I always quickly rebuke them. I have a GIVEN name. It is Louis, or Lou for short. I was not able to speak when I was born and be so arrogant to give myself a name. One was given to me. My name is simply Lou Newton.

But there is ONE who has many Names. For Jesus is all things to all people.

The man who has Christ, has EVERYTHING there is to possess. He lacks not one thing. For Jesus is The Lamb and he is also The Lion.

Lou Newton

[Lou Newton]

Michael

Here is what Strongs says about Michael

I.Michael = "who is like God"
A.
one of, the chief, or the first archangel who is described as the one who stands in time of conflict for the children of Israel

Who is like God - absolutely no one but Him

[Baruch]

Here is what Strongs says about Michael

I.Michael = "who is like God"
A.
one of, the chief, or the first archangel who is described as the one who stands in time of conflict for the children of Israel

Who is like God - absolutely no one but Him

Lou,

I have all your previous posts on Michael in mind in this reply. I picked the last and shortest one to quote. Despite its size, it's a bold argument that's not readily dismissible and supports the others very well.

Here is the Septuagint speaking about the ruler of Israel in the same terms as the ruler of the Persians:

Dan 10:13 And the ruler(G758) of the kingdom of the Persians stood right opposite me twenty days and one day. And behold, Michael, one of the rulers(G758) of the ones foremost, came to help me; and I left him there with the ruler(G758) of the kingdom of the Persians.

The "rulers of the foremost" are thought by some to be the Divine Counsel (Dr. Michael Heiser), the spirits that God appointed to confuse the language at the tower of Babel, and rule the splintered nations. And of course God reserved the Israelites to Himself, to rule them.

If God became a man anointed without measure, and refers to himself as king, prince, high priest, husband, and so on, so that He could be "all in all", then it makes sense to me He would become His archangel, one of the angelic rulers of earth's kingdoms.

It brings the following psalm to mind. Our God reproves the errant celestial rulers of the nations, advising them to judge righteously as our King of Kings judges His subjects...

KJV:
Psa 82:1-8 A Psalm of Asaph. God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods. 2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah. 3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. 4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked. 5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course. 6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. 7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes. 8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

Septuagint:
Psa 82:0-8 A psalm to Asaph. 1 God stood in the congregation of gods; and in the midst of gods he examines. 2 For how long will you judge injustice, and receive persons of sinners? 3 Judge for the orphan, and the poor! Do justice to the humble and needy! 4 Deliver the needy and the poor! Rescue him from the hand of the sinner! 5 They did not know, nor perceived. They travel in darkness. All the foundations of the earth shall be shaken. 6 I said, You are gods, and all sons of the highest. 7 But you die as men; and fall as one of the rulers(G758--this may refer to human kings). 8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth! for you shall inherit among all the nations.

None are fit to rule but Jesus.

[Lou Newton]

Lou,

I have all your previous posts on Michael in mind in this reply. I picked the last and shortest one to quote. Despite its size, it's a bold argument that's not readily dismissible and supports the others very well.

Here is the Septuagint speaking about the ruler of Israel in the same terms as the ruler of the Persians:

Dan 10:13 And the ruler(G758) of the kingdom of the Persians stood right opposite me twenty days and one day. And behold, Michael, one of the rulers(G758) of the ones foremost, came to help me; and I left him there with the ruler(G758) of the kingdom of the Persians.

The "rulers of the foremost" are thought by some to be the Divine Counsel (Dr. Michael Heiser), the spirits that God appointed to confuse the language at the tower of Babel, and rule the splintered nations. And of course God reserved the Israelites to Himself, to rule them.

If God became a man anointed without measure, and refers to himself as king, prince, high priest, husband, and so on, so that He could be "all in all", then it makes sense to me He would become His archangel, one of the angelic rulers of earth's kingdoms.

It brings the following psalm to mind. Our God reproves the errant celestial rulers of the nations, advising them to judge righteously as our King of Kings judges His subjects...

KJV:
Psa 82:1-8 A Psalm of Asaph. God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods. 2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah. 3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. 4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked. 5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course. 6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. 7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes. 8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

Septuagint:
Psa 82:0-8 A psalm to Asaph. 1 God stood in the congregation of gods; and in the midst of gods he examines. 2 For how long will you judge injustice, and receive persons of sinners? 3 Judge for the orphan, and the poor! Do justice to the humble and needy! 4 Deliver the needy and the poor! Rescue him from the hand of the sinner! 5 They did not know, nor perceived. They travel in darkness. All the foundations of the earth shall be shaken. 6 I said, You are gods, and all sons of the highest. 7 But you die as men; and fall as one of the rulers(G758--this may refer to human kings). 8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth! for you shall inherit among all the nations.

None are fit to rule but Jesus.

Certainly none are fit to rule but Jesus.

None are fit to judge but Jesus.

We can see that Satan is the most powerful of all the demons:

Mark 3:27

Living Bible
Satan must be bound before his demons are cast out, just as a strong man must be tied up before his house can be ransacked and his property robbed.

Satan protects the rest of the demons. He has to be bound before they can be cast out. One third of the angels went with Satan, and probably most of the most powerful ones. For power corrupts. But the weak tend to turn to God for protection.

John 12:31 (KJV)
31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

Satan is the most powerful ruler of this world system

2 Corinthians 4:4
Living Bible
Satan, who is the god of this evil world, has made him blind, unable to see the glorious light of the Gospel that is shining upon him or to understand the amazing message we preach about the glory of Christ, who is God.

Isaiah 14
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Lucifer is not stupid. He is the angel of knowledge. He is the wisest of all the angels. So how powerful he must have been to think he could be like God.

POWER CORRUPTS - it was the power that God gave Satan that corrupted him. So we can conclude that Satan was the most powerful of all created beings.

Rev 12: 7 And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. 10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down

So here Satan is defeated and the salvation of our God has come.

No one could do this except The Lord Jesus.

But even that is not the strongest argument.

Michael and his angels - the angels all belong to God and no one else

Michael your Prince - we have no Prince except The Lord Jesus.

Lou Newton

[Lou Newton]

Hi Lou,

Thanks for your response. I appreciate the time you've taken to document your statements and back them with scripture. As you know, any dispensationalist theologian on earth would be having a fit right now regarding your post. First, they would insist that Daniel 12 only refers to the physical nation of Israel, and that the church is a separate entity entirely. Some might even insist that the church is already in heaven when these things take place. They would base their resaonings on the many doctrines of men, theories, and assumptions that comprise the complex teachings known as dispensationalism. Dispensationalism didn't even become popular until about 80 years ago, and was virtually non-existent for the first 1800 years of church history. But that's a topic for another thread.

Anyway, getting back to why dispensationalists would have a cow over your post. They tend to take scripture literally whenever possible to do so. So to even consider the possibility that Michael is anyone other than the archangel Michael in heaven (Gabriel's counterpart) would be inconceivable. But you make several good points I've never considered. Namely, that Jesus Christ's credentials make Him the better candidate than the high ranking angel in scripture by the same name.

Or are you saying that every scriptural reference that speaks of Michael is actually talking about the Eternal Son of God, Jesus Christ? In other words, theologians commonly teach that God had three archangels, Michael, Gabriel, and Lucifer, but one rebelled and became Satan. Do you agree with this? Don't mean to sidetrack my own thread, but I'm just curious.

Blane

Daniel 12
The End Times
1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people--everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered.

God defines who he is speaking of here. It is SPIRITUAL ISRAEL - everyone whose name is found written in the book - that is all true Christians.

Romans 11
The Remnant of Israel
1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah--how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 "Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me" ? 4 And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal." 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. 7 What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8 as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day." 9 And David says: "May their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them. 10 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever."
Ingrafted Branches
11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring! 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. 22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
All Israel Will Be Saved
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27 And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins." 28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Doxology
33 Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! 34 "Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?" 35 "Who has ever given to God, that God should repay him?" 36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen.

All those born of Abraham are NOT children of the promise as we have seen. Rahab and Ruth were not born of Abraham but were in the line of The Christ.

Many that are not born of Abraham, but have the faith of Abraham, are GRAFTED into Israel.

It says ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED - how could that be, if Israel includes the Pharisees. True Israel is all those who trust in God to save them, just as Abraham did.

Lou Newton

[Lou Newton]

Well, pretty much the sound of crickets about Michael.

It took me a fairly long time to accept this also. It also took some time for me to accept that Melchizedek was another name for God. We certainly do not want to call someone God who is not God.

But it is also important to be able to recognize our Savior when He appears to us, even on the pages of scripture.

God Almighty has a lot of unique characteristics that no created being has:

He has no beginning and no end

He is the first and the last

He has no father and no mother - every other being has a father, God

He created everything that exists- so everything belongs to Him

He has the power of an indestructible life - He is LIFE

He is the only one who is worthy

He is the only one who is the Judge

He is the only one that is righteous and just

Now while we read in the scriptures of men being called great here on the earth or great in the world system; there is only ONE WHO IS GREAT IN HEAVEN

Look at this scene in heaven:

Revelation 4
The Throne in Heaven
1 After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to

me like a trumpet said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this." 2 At once I was in the Spirit,

and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it. 3 And the one who sat there had the appearance

of jasper and carnelian. A rainbow, resembling an emerald, encircled the throne. 4 Surrounding the throne were twenty-

four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on

their heads. 5 From the throne came flashes of lightning, rumblings and peals of thunder. Before the throne, seven lamps

were blazing. These are the seven spirits of God. 6 Also before the throne there was what looked like a sea of glass, clear

as crystal. In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in front and in

back. 7 The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was

like a flying eagle. 8 Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under his

wings. Day and night they never stop saying: "HOLY, HOLY, HOLY IS THE Lord GOD ALMIGHTY, WHO WAS, AND IS, AND

IS TO COME." 9 Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives

for ever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne, and worship him who lives for

ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say: 11 "You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory

and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being."

Everything that is given great honor here is God.

Think of being one of the 24 elders in heaven.

But look at what they say:

the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne, and worship him who lives for

ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say: 11 "You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory

and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being

They lay their crown before His throne and give all honor to God.

Even John fell down to worship a mere angel - because men are used to worshipping those who seem stronger than them.

Satan encourages men to worship other men and all kinds of beings except God.

But God does not do this.

Please read the posts about Michael again. Please read with great thought and prayer. No one can go wrong by putting this issue ( or any other issue) in the hands of our Lord who shed His blood for us. Put it in His hands and them leave it there. He is able to reveal Himself to anyone who seeks Him.

I did not need all of the scriptures about Michael, to see who He is. This one alone should have been enough:

7 And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back

This is not some man speaking here, but The Holy Spirit.

This verse reveals all we need to know about Michael.

The war is between Michael and Satan

.

15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."

That is the war that has been taking place since the garden

It also states, Michael and HIS angels.

Mere men make misstatements that are not totally true. They call a mere man, Pope, or Supreme Ruler, which is NOT true. They think nothing of telling lies.

BUT GOD CAN NOT LIE

HE IS TRUTH

When God states, Michael and HIS angels, it is NOT some statement that is not TOTALLY TRUE.

The statement is TRUE IN EVERYWAY THERE IS TO BE TRUE

The angels are Michaels angels. God not only owns all the cattle on the hills, He owns all the angels in heaven.

Please let me know your thoughts, or your questions, or your cautions, etc.

Lou Newton

[Baruch]

Hi, Lou,

Thank you for taking the time and effort to make this concept approachable.

I needed more scripture to see the identity of Michael simply because of the implied balance of the comparison in Rev 12:7; which notion supports the prevailing doctrine of Michael, Gabriel, and Lucifer as the three archangels.

Michael and his angels fought
the dragon fought and his angels

This suggested to me Michael and the dragon are on the same level. Also, that the dragon took 1/3 of the stars with him checks the math: Lucifer is 1/3 of the three supposed archangels.

The verses that immediately follow Rev 12:7 don't solidly indicate Michael's identity to me, either.

Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

The indirect expressions here, "neither was their place found", "dragon was cast out", leaves to reason the discovery of what was the agent by which these things resulted. Things that come to mind: 1) the dragon had an inferior force of 1/3 of the stars in league with him; 2) God was for Michael, so who could be against him; 3) God created the entity who became the dragon, and God's will is supreme. All of which, and more, may be true; and which may satisfy my inferior understanding of this engagement without suggesting that our Lord is Michael.

I had read that some theologians consider Michael to be the Lord Jesus, but I had never seen it supported so well by Scripture.

It's by other verses that we see that Michael is the archangel, the chief angel. There is only one chief, which is a first position, by definition unique. There can be only one unique. If there were "tribes" in God's kingdom, each of which had a chief, we should see more elaborate titles than "the archangel"; and we don't see this title applied to any other.

His name, Michael, "who is like God". This name was not given by God with the dimness of vision that men suffer, who also give their sons this name. God says clearly, "I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me."

Daniel 12:1 really pulls it together. This is a strong supporting verse once I began looking for the details that reveal our Lord.

These and the other scriptures mentioned seem to be in agreement, even with 1Jn 4:2 and Jas 3:17.

[Lou Newton]

Hi, Lou,

Thank you for taking the time and effort to make this concept approachable.

I needed more scripture to see the identity of Michael simply because of the implied balance of the comparison in Rev 12:7; which notion supports the prevailing doctrine of Michael, Gabriel, and Lucifer as the three archangels.

Michael and his angels fought
the dragon fought and his angels

This suggested to me Michael and the dragon are on the same level. Also, that the dragon took 1/3 of the stars with him checks the math: Lucifer is 1/3 of the three supposed archangels.

The verses that immediately follow Rev 12:7 don't solidly indicate Michael's identity to me, either.

Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

The indirect expressions here, "neither was their place found", "dragon was cast out", leaves to reason the discovery of what was the agent by which these things resulted. Things that come to mind: 1) the dragon had an inferior force of 1/3 of the stars in league with him; 2) God was for Michael, so who could be against him; 3) God created the entity who became the dragon, and God's will is supreme. All of which, and more, may be true; and which may satisfy my inferior understanding of this engagement without suggesting that our Lord is Michael.

I had read that some theologians consider Michael to be the Lord Jesus, but I had never seen it supported so well by Scripture.

It's by other verses that we see that Michael is the archangel, the chief angel. There is only one chief, which is a first position, by definition unique. There can be only one unique. If there were "tribes" in God's kingdom, each of which had a chief, we should see more elaborate titles than "the archangel"; and we don't see this title applied to any other.

His name, Michael, "who is like God". This name was not given by God with the dimness of vision that men suffer, who also give their sons this name. God says clearly, "I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me."

Daniel 12:1 really pulls it together. This is a strong supporting verse once I began looking for the details that reveal our Lord.

These and the other scriptures mentioned seem to be in agreement, even with 1Jn 4:2 and Jas 3:17.

Thank you for your kind and bold reply Barry.

I am not sure you are saying that you agree that Michael is God, or He is Not.

It seems at the end that you agree that Michael is God.

But about your one point concerning the battle between Michael and Satan:

JUST WHO DEFEATED SATAN

JUST HOW WAS SATAN DEFEATED

SATAN WAS DEFEATED BY THE CROSS AND NO OTHER MEANS

We know this to be true, because the whole Bible teaches us this.

It was not a war like men fight. It was a war of words. We are told that Jesus will totally put Satan in the pit with one little word. Just as the sun gave light, when Jesus said. Let there be light.

Revelation 12 shows us this.

First is tells us about a battle between them, then it goes on to give us the details of that battle.

The Woman and the Dragon
1 A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a

crown of twelve stars on her head. 2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3 Then

another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his

heads. 4 His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon

stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born

. 5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was

snatched up to God and to his throne. 6 The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she

might be taken care of for 1,260 days. 7 And there was war in heaven.

Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not

strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the

devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. 10 Then I heard a l

loud voice in heaven say: "Now have come the salvation and the power

and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our

God day and night, has been hurled down. 11 They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb

and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death. 12 Therefore

rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to

you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short." 13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to

the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 The woman was given the two wings of a

great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time,

times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach. 15 Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to

overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16 But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and

swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and

went off to make war against the rest of her offspring--those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of

Jesus.

Let us look at the order of events:

1 - A sign appeared in heaven that the Christ was about to be born - this was the sign in the stars and planets that announced the birth of Jesus that the three wise men seen. Satan also seen it.

2 - Mary gave birth to Jesus

3 - Satan tried to have Jesus killed by sending Herod to kill all male children under two years of age

4 - But Satan was not successful and Jesus shed His blood for us - but he had not sinned

5 -Jesus rose to heaven

6 - Satan was defeated - because he had inspired the Pharisees to crucify Christ and Christ had not sinned - so Satan lost - he was defeated by the cross

7 - Satan lost his place in heaven for he had broken this ancient law that was above every other law. This law was before God created the universe.

8 - Satan was angry, but he could not touch God of His Christ in heaven - so Satan attacked the woman who had brought the Christ into the world

What do you think ?

Lou Newton

[Baruch]

Thank you for your kind and bold reply Barry.

I am not sure you are saying that you agree that Michael is God, or He is Not.

It seems at the end that you agree that Michael is God.

But about your one point concerning the battle between Michael and Satan:

JUST WHO DEFEATED SATAN

JUST HOW WAS SATAN DEFEATED

SATAN WAS DEFEATED BY THE CROSS AND NO OTHER MEANS

We know this to be true, because the whole Bible teaches us this.

It was not a war like men fight. It was a war of words. We are told that Jesus will totally put Satan in the pit with one little word. Just as the sun gave light, when Jesus said. Let there be light.

Revelation 12 shows us this.

First is tells us about a battle between them, then it goes on to give us the details of that battle.



Let us look at the order of events:

1 - A sign appeared in heaven that the Christ was about to be born - this was the sign in the stars and planets that announced the birth of Jesus that the three wise men seen. Satan also seen it.

2 - Mary gave birth to Jesus

3 - Satan tried to have Jesus killed by sending Herod to kill all male children under two years of age

4 - But Satan was not successful and Jesus shed His blood for us - but he had not sinned

5 -Jesus rose to heaven

6 - Satan was defeated - because he had inspired the Pharisees to crucify Christ and Christ had not sinned - so Satan lost - he was defeated by the cross

7 - Satan lost his place in heaven for he had broken this ancient law that was above every other law. This law was before God created the universe.

8 - Satan was angry, but he could not touch God of His Christ in heaven - so Satan attacked the woman who had brought the Christ into the world

What do you think ?

Lou Newton

Hi, Lou,

Thanks for this well organized answer.

This explanation certainly agrees with me and with my understanding of scripture. It answers my question, What was the agent of the dragon's expulsion? implied in:

The indirect expressions here, "neither was their place found", "dragon was cast out", leaves to reason the discovery of what was the agent by which these things resulted. Things that come to mind: 1) the dragon had an inferior force of 1/3 of the stars in league with him; 2) God was for Michael, so who could be against him; 3) God created the entity who became the dragon, and God's will is supreme. All of which, and more, may be true; and which may satisfy my inferior understanding of this engagement without suggesting that our Lord is Michael.

It also answers why indirect expressions are used to describe the expulsion, rather than a direct result of the force of melee between Michael and the dragon.

My previous post was in two parts. The first part expressed why I had been in the camp that does not view Michael as God. The second part expressed why I am powerfully persuaded the other way.

I do, however, recognize that I should take some time to pray, study, and meditate on it before I commit. Especially since I am young in Christ, and so far have had a fast and bumpy voyage of accepting and then discarding one thing after another with no signs of slowing down.

[Lou Newton]

Hi, Lou,

Thanks for this well organized answer.

This explanation certainly agrees with me and with my understanding of scripture. It answers my question, What was the agent of the dragon's expulsion? implied in:



It also answers why indirect expressions are used to describe the expulsion, rather than a direct result of the force of melee between Michael and the dragon.

My previous post was in two parts. The first part expressed why I had been in the camp that does not view Michael as God. The second part expressed why I am powerfully persuaded the other way.

I do, however, recognize that I should take some time to pray, study, and meditate on it before I commit. Especially since I am young in Christ, and so far have had a fast and bumpy voyage of accepting and then discarding one thing after another with no signs of slowing down.

I agree with your approach. I can not reveal any truth to anyone. I can only tell what Jesus has told me and then point others to The Lord Jesus about the issue.

BTW, I do not think the battle was a melee at all. That is how men fight. But God has shown us the His battles are different.

When Adam disobeyed, God did not put Adam over His knee. The Lord simply told Adam what the consequence of his action would be. If Adam wanted to trust in his own understanding and his efforts, then God told Adam what would happen by taking that course.

Jesus rode out of heaven on a White horse and holding a bow. But when we see Jesus walk into the garden, we see that bow shot the prophecies at Satan, Eve and Adam. It was not physical arrows but words that could not be broken except by the blood of Jesus.

What did Jesus ( Michael ) say on the cross. IT IS FINISHED

This battle was much harder for The Lord Jesus than merely taking up the sword and defeating Satan.

It cost Jesus everything, including His body and His blood.

Satan never considered that God would make such a sacrifice to save mere men. Because Satan certainly would not have done the same to win us for his side.

Lou Newton