All Israel will be saved? (Romans 9-11)

[Blane]

Here's a topic which some deem too controversial to talk about among brethren. Yet it continues to baffle me. I hope we are mature enough to have some edifying discussion that will shed light on what is true from scripture. That is, what is true according to scripture, without the doctrines and theories of men superimposed onto the scriptures? I believe this is possible.

The topic is Israel. What exactly is scripture saying in Romans 10:25-26? Many mainline Protestant Bible teachers and theologians are teaching that one day 100% of the Jews living in the physical nation of Israel will suddenly see Jesus as the long awaited Messiah and be saved. Is that what Romans 11 is saying? Or is there confusion in the church world as to the exact meaning of the word "Israel" in this passage? (Romans 9-11)

Blane




^{Romans 11 (Geneva 1599)
1} I Demand then, ^[a]Hath God cast away his people? God forbid: for ^[b]I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

^{2 [c]}God hath not cast away his people which he ^[d]knew before. ^[e]Know ye not what the Scripture saith of Elijah, how he communeth with God against Israel, saying,
³ Lord, they have killed thy Prophets, and dug down thine Altars: and I am left alone, and they seek my life?
⁴ But what saith the answer of God to him? I have ^[f]reserved unto myself seven thousand men, which have not bowed the knee to ^[g]Baal.
⁵ Even so then, at this present time is there a remnant according to the ^[h]election of grace.
^{6 [i]}And if it be of grace, it is ^[j]no more of works: or else were grace no more grace: but if it be of works, it is no more grace: or else were work no more work.
⁷ What then? Israel hath not obtained that he sought: but the election hath obtained it, and the rest have been ^[k]hardened,
^{8 [l]}According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of ^[m]slumber: eyes that they ^[n]should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
⁹ And David saith, ^[o]Let their table be made a snare, and a net, and a stumbling block, even for a recompense unto them.
¹⁰ Let their eyes be darkened that they see not, and bow down their back always.
^{11 [p]}I demand then, Have they stumbled, that they should fall? God forbid: but through their fall, salvation cometh unto the Gentiles, to provoke them to follow them.
¹² Wherefore if the fall of them be the ^[q]riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles, how much more shall their ^[r]abundance be?
^{13 [s]}For in that I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the Apostle of the Gentiles, I ^[t]magnify mine office,
¹⁴ To try if by any means I might provoke them of my flesh to follow them, and might save some of them.
¹⁵ For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving be, ^[u]but life from the dead?
^{16 [v]}For if the ^[w]firstfruits be holy, so is the whole lump: and if the ^[x]root be holy, so are the branches.
^{17 [y]}And though some of the branches be broken off, and thou being a wild Olive tree, wast grafted in ^[z]for them, and made ^[aa]partaker of the root and fatness of the Olive tree:
^{18 [ab]}Boast not thyself against the branches: and if thou boast thyself, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
¹⁹ Thou wilt say then, The branches are broken off, that I might be grafted in.
²⁰ Well: through unbelief they are broken off, and thou standest by faith: be not high-minded, but ^[ac]fear.
²¹ For if God spared not the ^[ad]natural branches, take heed, lest he also spare not thee.
^{22 [ae]}Behold therefore the ^[af]bountifulness, and severity of God: toward them which have fallen, severity: but toward thee, bountifulness, if thou continue in his ^[ag]bountifulness: or else thou shalt also be cut off.
^{23 [ah]}And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
²⁴ For if thou wast cut out of the Olive tree, which was wild by ^[ai]nature, and was grafted contrary to nature in a ^[aj]right Olive tree, how much more shall they that are by nature, be grafted in their own Olive tree?
^{25 [ak]}For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this secret (lest ye should be arrogant in ^[al]yourselves) that partly obstinacy is come to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be ^[am]come in.

²⁶ And so all Israel shall be saved, as it is written, The deliverer shall come out of Zion, and shall turn away the ungodliness from Jacob.
²⁷ And this is my covenant to them, When I shall take away their sins.

^{28 [an]}As concerning the ^[ao]Gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the ^[ap]election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.
^{29 [aq]}For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
^{30 [ar]}For even as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
³¹ Even so now have they not believed by the mercy showed unto you, that they also may obtain mercy.
³² For God hath shut up ^[as]all in unbelief, that he might have mercy on all.
^{33 [at]}O the deepness of the riches, both of the wisdom, and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his ^[au]judgments, and his ^[av]ways past finding out!
^{34 [aw]}For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who was his counselor?
³⁵ Or who hath given unto him ^[ax]first, and he shall be recompensed?
³⁶ For of him, and through him, and for ^[ay]him are all things: to him be glory forever. Amen.

[Travis]

This can be quite controversial for some reason, it seems.

Though I haven't had as much time to do so as some, I've still thought about these things quite a bit. I think this is probably an important topic.

I'm interested in learning more about it.

[Lou Newton]

Dear Friends,

God is the One who named Israel. But the FIRST son of Abraham was NOT a child of promise. No one today would think the children of Ismael are God's people. For they are Muslims.

Also Abraham had many other children AFTER Isaac and none of them were part of the nation of Israel.

Genesis 25 New International Version (NIV)

The Death of Abraham

25 Abraham had taken another wife, whose name was Keturah. 2 She bore him Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak and Shuah. 3 Jokshan was the father of Sheba and Dedan; the descendants of Dedan were the Ashurites, the Letu****es and the Leummites. 4 The sons of Midian were Ephah, Epher, Hanok, Abida and Eldaah. All these were descendants of Keturah.
5 Abraham left everything he owned to Isaac. 6 But while he was still living, he gave gifts to the sons of his concubines and sent them away from his son Isaac to the land of the east.

So Abraham had many other children besides Isaac. For he took Keturah as a wife and also had concubines.

Most of these people from the other sons are enemies of Israel today. So to say ALL of the sons of Abraham are God's people is to bury ones head in the sand.

Now Isaac had two sons, Jacob and Esau. God changed Jacob's name is Israel but Esau's descendants became Israel's enemies.

All down through the history of the nation of Israel we see that some of the people served God and some rebelled against God.

Romans 11

The Remnant of Israel
1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah--how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 "Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me" ? 4 And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal." 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. 7 What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8 as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day." 9 And David says: "May their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them. 10 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever."
Ingrafted Branches
11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring! 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. 22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
All Israel Will Be Saved
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27 And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins." 28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. Doxology
33 Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! 34 "Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?" 35 "Who has ever given to God, that God should repay him?" 36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen.

Surely we can see right in this chapter that all the nation of Israel is NOT God's elect. God's elect is only those whom he foreknew.

During Elijah's time only 7000 were chosen at the time Elijah prayed. So most of the nation of Israel was lost during his time.

God says in the next sentence that His remnant is NOT chosen by works ( being born of the will of your earthly father is a work). So God does not chose His elect for salvation by birth, but by grace and grace alone.

7 What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8 as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day."

We see in the above passage that God gave some of the nation a spirit of stupor so they could not see or hear. They were blessed because of Abraham but they rejected the God who blessed them, just as Esau did not value his blessing from God but traded it for a bowl of stew.

28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

We see here that most in Israel (the nation) were enemies of the gospel of Christ.

but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs

But they are still blessed by God because of Abraham.

BUT THEY HAVE REJECTED THE VERY ONE WHO BLESSES THEM

Abraham had two kinds of children - those like the sands of the seas shore - and those like the stars of the heavens

Those that are like the sand of the shore are blessed because of Abraham; but most reject the very God who blesses them. Are not the Arabs blessed. They are children of Abraham. Look at all the oil God put on their lands. But they worship a false god who never once tells them he loves them and asks them to murder those who worship the One True God. But God has blessed them just as he blessed Ishmael because of Abraham.

So all of Abraham's children are blessed, but only a few are chosen to be God's elect by grace and grace alone.

Read all of the OT and see that most of the nation of Israel did not serve God at all. But they built a golden calf right after God delivered them from slavery. They made themselves slaves to Satan right after God delivered them from slavery in Egypt.

Of course all of Israel will be saved. For true Israel is those that have power with God, just as Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. That is why God constantly says he is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He is also saying he is NOT the God of the other children of Abraham ( although he blessed them).

The promises of God are true for all time and forever. Those who call upon the Name ( the Nature) of The Lord will be saved. Also those that do not will not be saved.

Now as to the question of will all of the NATION of Israel be saved in the end times.

Well that is beyond the knowledge of mere men. God is the one who choses His elect.

Surely God can CHOSE every person in the nation of Israel if he choses. But Jesus alone is The Judge and no mere man can judge who is chosen and who is not.

33 Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! 34 "Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?" 35 "Who has ever given to God, that God should repay him?" 36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen.

The gospel of The Lord Jesus Christ is a very simple thing. But men continue to try to make it very complicated.

Acts 2:21

And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’

Of course The Lord Jesus is The ONE who judges who truly calls upon His Name.

Grace to you
Lou Newton

[Steve Hollander]

Dear Friends,

God is the One who named Israel. But the FIRST son of Abraham was NOT a child of promise. No one today would think the children of Ismael are God's people. For they are Muslims.

Also Abraham had many other children AFTER Isaac and none of them were part of the nation of Israel.

Genesis 25 New International Version (NIV)



So Abraham had many other children besides Isaac. For he took Keturah as a wife and also had concubines.

Most of these people from the other sons are enemies of Israel today. So to say ALL of the sons of Abraham are God's people is to bury ones head in the sand.

Now Isaac had two sons, Jacob and Esau. God changed Jacob's name is Israel but Esau's descendants became Israel's enemies.

All down through the history of the nation of Israel we see that some of the people served God and some rebelled against God.



Surely we can see right in this chapter that all the nation of Israel is NOT God's elect. God's elect is only those whom he foreknew.

During Elijah's time only 7000 were chosen at the time Elijah prayed. So most of the nation of Israel was lost during his time.

God says in the next sentence that His remnant is NOT chosen by works ( being born of the will of your earthly father is a work). So God does not chose His elect for salvation by birth, but by grace and grace alone.



We see in the above passage that God gave some of the nation a spirit of stupor so they could not see or hear. They were blessed because of Abraham but they rejected the God who blessed them, just as Esau did not value his blessing from God but traded it for a bowl of stew.



We see here that most in Israel (the nation) were enemies of the gospel of Christ.



But they are still blessed by God because of Abraham.

BUT THEY HAVE REJECTED THE VERY ONE WHO BLESSES THEM

Abraham had two kinds of children - those like the sands of the seas shore - and those like the stars of the heavens

Those that are like the sand of the shore are blessed because of Abraham; but most reject the very God who blesses them. Are not the Arabs blessed. They are children of Abraham. Look at all the oil God put on their lands. But they worship a false god who never once tells them he loves them and asks them to murder those who worship the One True God. But God has blessed them just as he blessed Ishmael because of Abraham.

So all of Abraham's children are blessed, but only a few are chosen to be God's elect by grace and grace alone.

Read all of the OT and see that most of the nation of Israel did not serve God at all. But they built a golden calf right after God delivered them from slavery. They made themselves slaves to Satan right after God delivered them from slavery in Egypt.

Of course all of Israel will be saved. For true Israel is those that have power with God, just as Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. That is why God constantly says he is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He is also saying he is NOT the God of the other children of Abraham ( although he blessed them).

The promises of God are true for all time and forever. Those who call upon the Name ( the Nature) of The Lord will be saved. Also those that do not will not be saved.

Now as to the question of will all of the NATION of Israel be saved in the end times.

Well that is beyond the knowledge of mere men. God is the one who choses His elect.

Surely God can CHOSE every person in the nation of Israel if he choses. But Jesus alone is The Judge and no mere man can judge who is chosen and who is not.



The gospel of The Lord Jesus Christ is a very simple thing. But men continue to try to make it very complicated.

Grace to you
Lou Newton

Excellent thanks pal.

[Blane]

This can be quite controversial for some reason, it seems.

Though I haven't had as much time to do so as some, I've still thought about these things quite a bit. I think this is probably an important topic.

I'm interested in learning more about it.

Good attitude, my brother. I never have understood why this topic can spark heated debates among those who claim to have a common bond in Christ. It's not a salvation related issue anyway. The only thing I can figure is that discussion on this topic somehow threatens certain pet doctrines that are so dear to believers that they have become idols. Discussing scripture respectfully, with a love for the truth and a desire to draw closer to Jesus should never pose a threat to any believer. Sure, it might topple a pet doctrine from time to time. Or maybe melt a golden calf along the way. But it's all good if we love the truth more than we love pet doctrines.

I'm looking forward to learning from each of you on this thread.

Blane

[Blane]

...most in Israel (the nation) were enemies of the gospel of Christ.

But they are still blessed by God because of Abraham.

BUT THEY HAVE REJECTED THE VERY ONE WHO BLESSES THEM

Abraham had two kinds of children - those like the sands of the seas shore - and those like the stars of the heavens

Those that are like the sand of the shore are blessed because of Abraham; but most reject the very God who blesses them. Are not the Arabs blessed. They are children of Abraham. Look at all the oil God put on their lands. But they worship a false god who never once tells them he loves them and asks them to murder those who worship the One True God. But God has blessed them just as he blessed Ishmael because of Abraham.

So all of Abraham's children are blessed, but only a few are chosen to be God's elect by grace and grace alone.

Read all of the OT and see that most of the nation of Israel did not serve God at all. But they built a golden calf right after God delivered them from slavery. They made themselves slaves to Satan right after God delivered them from slavery in Egypt.

Of course all of Israel will be saved. For true Israel is those that have power with God, just as Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. That is why God constantly says he is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He is also saying he is NOT the God of the other children of Abraham ( although he blessed them).

The promises of God are true for all time and forever. Those who call upon the Name ( the Nature) of The Lord will be saved. Also those that do not will not be saved.

Thanks for bringing up the undeniable fact that God has blessed the Jews and the decendants of Abraham, even to this day. If God were not blessing and protecting them, Satan would have blotted them out long ago.

Lou, your post is a reminder of how God blessed Esau greatly in the OT with flocks and herds and many servants. Yet Esau was never the chosen child, nor the child of promise. As you said, he rejected his birthright and opted out for fleshly gain.

Blane

[Blane]

Now as to the question of will all of the NATION of Israel be saved in the end times.

Well that is beyond the knowledge of mere men. God is the one who choses His elect.

Surely God can CHOSE every person in the nation of Israel if he choses. But Jesus alone is The Judge and no mere man can judge who is chosen and who is not.

I'm glad to hear you say this, Lou. Surely God is big enough to save every Jew in physical Israel in a single day, if that is His plan. I'm just not convinced that certain theologians are interpreting Rom 9-11 accurately. That's what this thread is all about; discussing what is true about Israel, according to scripture. And also to ferret out any myths, theories, or doctrines of men that cannot be validated by scripture.

Yes, God could win every Muslim in the middle east over to Christ in a single day, if he so chooses. Or every Jew, atheist, agnostic, Israelite, or any other group of people. With God, all things are possible.

Blane

[baobab]

Blane asks:

“What exactly is scripture saying in Romans 10:25-26? Many mainline Protestant Bible teachers and theologians are teaching that one day 100% of the Jews living in the physical nation of Israel will suddenly see Jesus as the long awaited Messiah and be saved.”

Lou explained the background very well.

The following is part of what I have gleaned through the years and this subject is very dear to me. Jesus told the lady at the well, “Salvation is from the Jews.” I am very grateful for this.

Modern Israel is a nation-sate made up of people representing several nations. The Biblical definition of nation is a people regardless of national borders, centralized government and a flag. There are several nations of people living within the U.S. borders. The Cherokee, Navaho, Blackfoot, Pima and many others are nations within a larger man-made nation-state.

Among the people living in Modern Israel with Israeli citizenship are Palestinian Arabs, Bedouin, Druze, Ethiopians, Ashkenazi, Sephardi, Mizrahi and others. Each group represents people from distinct people nations. If Modern Israel ceases to be a nation state i.e. Modern Israel ceases to exist with borders, a central government and a flag the nation of Israel will still exist. Abraham’s seed is still with us. The largest groups being some of the Sephardi and all of the Mizrahi and only rare traces of the others mentioned in the paragraph. So… Since Abraham and Sarah begat Isaac, Israel has never ceased to be a nation. Israel was still a nation after Titus ransacked Jerusalem in 70 AD. A people in exile are still a nation by Biblical standards. Israel was a nation before 1948 and will continue to be a nation by the time Jesus returns regardless of what happens to Modern Israel.

None of the founders of Modern Israel or Prime Ministers of Modern Israel ever had roots in the Holy Land. I think it odd for a people to claim the Holy Land as the land of their forefathers when their forefathers never lived there ever. None of the founders or top leaders in Modern Israel was Mizrahi or Sephardi. Even so, a person regardless of nationality who follows Torah is considered a Jew by rabbinical law and those regardless of nationality who don’t follow Torah are not Jews by rabbinical law. This excludes virtually every founder and top leader of Modern Israel. The two loudest voices of the twentieth century to claim Jews as a distinct race are Hitler and Theodor Herzl. Mr. Herzl is the father of Modern Zionism and was an avowed atheist.

I don’t think Paul was referring to a man-made nation state in the verses Blane asks about. When the veil is lifted from the Jew’s spiritual eyes they will recognize Jesus as their Messiah where ever they live be it in Diaspora or geographical Modern Israel. It doesn’t make a difference. I look forward to that day.

Trivia:

The most common male name in Modern Israel (not including the occupied territories) is Muhammad. There is a non-demographical reason for this.

[Lou Newton]

Blane asks:

“What exactly is scripture saying in Romans 10:25-26? Many mainline Protestant Bible teachers and theologians are teaching that one day 100% of the Jews living in the physical nation of Israel will suddenly see Jesus as the long awaited Messiah and be saved.”

Lou explained the background very well.

The following is part of what I have gleaned through the years and this subject is very dear to me. Jesus told the lady at the well, “Salvation is from the Jews.” I am very grateful for this.

Modern Israel is a nation-sate made up of people representing several nations. The Biblical definition of nation is a people regardless of national borders, centralized government and a flag. There are several nations of people living within the U.S. borders. The Cherokee, Navaho, Blackfoot, Pima and many others are nations within a larger man-made nation-state.

Among the people living in Modern Israel with Israeli citizenship are Palestinian Arabs, Bedouin, Druze, Ethiopians, Ashkenazi, Sephardi, Mizrahi and others. Each group represents people from distinct people nations. If Modern Israel ceases to be a nation state i.e. Modern Israel ceases to exist with borders, a central government and a flag the nation of Israel will still exist. Abraham’s seed is still with us. The largest groups being some of the Sephardi and all of the Mizrahi and only rare traces of the others mentioned in the paragraph. So… Since Abraham and Sarah begat Isaac, Israel has never ceased to be a nation. Israel was still a nation after Titus ransacked Jerusalem in 70 AD. A people in exile are still a nation by Biblical standards. Israel was a nation before 1948 and will continue to be a nation by the time Jesus returns regardless of what happens to Modern Israel.

None of the founders of Modern Israel or Prime Ministers of Modern Israel ever had roots in the Holy Land. I think it odd for a people to claim the Holy Land as the land of their forefathers when their forefathers never lived there ever. None of the founders or top leaders in Modern Israel was Mizrahi or Sephardi. Even so, a person regardless of nationality who follows Torah is considered a Jew by rabbinical law and those regardless of nationality who don’t follow Torah are not Jews by rabbinical law. This excludes virtually every founder and top leader of Modern Israel. The two loudest voices of the twentieth century to claim Jews as a distinct race are Hitler and Theodor Herzl. Mr. Herzl is the father of Modern Zionism and was an avowed atheist.

I don’t think Paul was referring to a man-made nation state in the verses Blane asks about. When the veil is lifted from the Jew’s spiritual eyes they will recognize Jesus as their Messiah where ever they live be it in Diaspora or geographical Modern Israel. It doesn’t make a difference. I look forward to that day.

Trivia:

The most common male name in Modern Israel (not including the occupied territories) is Muhammad. There is a non-demographical reason for this.

Hi Baobab,


You wrote:

The most common male name in Modern Israel (not including the occupied territories) is Muhammad. There is a non-demographical reason for this

Can you expound on this in any way. I find this very interesting.
Lou

[Baruch]

Thanks for bringing up the undeniable fact that God has blessed the Jews and the decendants of Abraham, even to this day. If God were not blessing and protecting them, Satan would have blotted them out long ago.

Lou, your post is a reminder of how God blessed Esau greatly in the OT with flocks and herds and many servants. Yet Esau was never the chosen child, nor the child of promise. As you said, he rejected his birthright and opted out for fleshly gain.

Blane

I agree, Blane. Few things today, I think, demonstrate the following passage so well as the descendents of Ishmael.

Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. 10 Let favour be shewed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD.

Thank you, Lou, for bringing this up.

[Baruch]

Hi Baobab,


You wrote:



Can you expound on this in any way. I find this very interesting.
Lou

Yes, that's very interesting about Israel. I too am curious.

I read only today this is the case also in the UK. The articles doesn't speculate why, but I imagine it has a demographic reason as well as a cultural one. The Muslim communities enjoy a much higher birthrate than the natives, and likely a number of native converts choose the name to honor Islam's prophet.

[Lou Newton]

Yes, that's very interesting about Israel. I too am curious.

I read only today this is the case also in the UK. The articles doesn't speculate why, but I imagine it has a demographic reason as well as a cultural one. The Muslim communities enjoy a much higher birthrate than the natives, and likely a number of native converts choose the name to honor Islam's prophet.

Hi Barry,

If the circumstances do not change, Europe will be a Muslim majority very soon. The Europeans are not having babies and so their numbers are getting less. But the Muslims are having lots of babies and they will outnumber the Europeans in a very few years.

It seems that also, by far the most popular Muslim name is Muhammad. But the Europeans use many names, so no one name is as popular as the one the Muslims use so much.

With the Muslim situation being so dangerous, the people of the US elected a Muslim President. The people of the US may be the stupidest people that have ever existed.

They are being led to a slaughter and are content as long as they have a device called a Smart phone. The phone may be smart, but the users seem to be the opposite.

[Blane]

None of the founders of Modern Israel or Prime Ministers of Modern Israel ever had roots in the Holy Land. I think it odd for a people to claim the Holy Land as the land of their forefathers when their forefathers never lived there ever. None of the founders or top leaders in Modern Israel was Mizrahi or Sephardi. Even so, a person regardless of nationality who follows Torah is considered a Jew by rabbinical law and those regardless of nationality who don’t follow Torah are not Jews by rabbinical law. This excludes virtually every founder and top leader of Modern Israel. The two loudest voices of the twentieth century to claim Jews as a distinct race are Hitler and Theodor Herzl. Mr. Herzl is the father of Modern Zionism and was an avowed atheist.

I don’t think Paul was referring to a man-made nation state in the verses Blane asks about. When the veil is lifted from the Jew’s spiritual eyes they will recognize Jesus as their Messiah where ever they live be it in Diaspora or geographical Modern Israel. It doesn’t make a difference. I look forward to that day.

A most interesting point to consider. How might one confirm this to be true? I mean, if this were a court of law, and a jury were examining the evidence to such a claim, what would be the best way to verify or disprove their claim?

Blane

[baobab]

Baby Names

Lou asks:
"Can you expound on this in any way. I find this very interesting."


I should have written Mohammed is the most common name given to babies born to Israeli citizens during the Jewish year 5774 (2013/2014).

If all Jewish citizens were included in the list then Mohamed would top the list for baby boys born year 5774.
People living in Gaza and non Jews living in the West Bank and East Jerusalem are under IDF military rule and are not citizens of any country. The millions living under occupation were not included in the list of names. Arab Israeli citizens were included then nixed from the official list.

http://mondoweiss.net/2014/09/palestinian-included-popular/

The non demographic reason Mohamed is the most common baby name among Israeli citizens:

"But that’s more a consequence of naming trends than anything else. In a great many Muslim cultures, all male babies are given “Mohammed” as an official first name."

"In 2010, if you combined all 12 spelling variants of the Islamic prophet’s name, “Mohammed” was more popular than any other name given to new babies. But that’s more a consequence of naming trends than anything else. In a great many Muslim cultures, all male babies are given “Mohammed” as an official first name. As a result, Mohammed manages to reach the Number 1 spot without being all that common — when combined, babies named after the Islamic prophet made up only 1% of British newborns in 2010."

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/09/24/mohammed-most-common-baby-name-in-israel/

[Steve Hollander]

Hello brethren,
It would seem like modern Israel is only a small part of what makes up physical Israel today. Which is really Judea or Judah.
Since the Assyrians carried away 10 of 12 tribes of the physical Israel and that was after the split and there were 2 nations comprising physical Israel. So those lost tribes now make up a vast number of people who live through out Europe and America. Most are unaware of their background history. The genealogy was lost but now many people can trace their heritage online.
But the Jews are only making up 2 of the 12 tribes and they also absorbed most of the Levites thanks to Jereboam.
And some nation actually converted to Jews totally by their kings order. So that and all the years of intermarriage makes it very difficult to sort out.
So nobody could possibly identify Israel in its entirety physically.
But scripture states that God will sift through the nations and bring all of them home. But Israel is NOT physical as spoken of by God but is spiritual like Lou said about the stars and sand.
But only God knows what He is doing and how.
What do you think? ..... Steve