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  • 1 Cor 15:29...?

    There are many wonderful truths hidden within 1 Cor 15. It also contains a verse which has perplexed me for years. In fact, it's a verse that seems rather odd, at least to me. It's almost like Paul misspoke when he wrote it. But I know better, for all scripture is God breathed.

    Anyway, does anyone have any insight into what Paul meant in 1 Cor 15:29? This verse sounds just a tad bit Mormon to me. The only thing I can figure at this point, is that I'm not understanding the true meaning of what 1 Cor 15:29 is meant to convey.

    Blane


    1 Cor 15
    15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
    2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
    3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
    4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
    5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
    6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
    7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
    8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
    9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
    10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
    11 Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.
    12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
    13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
    14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
    15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
    16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
    17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
    18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
    19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
    20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
    21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
    22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
    23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
    24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
    25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
    26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

    27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
    28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
    29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

    30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?
    31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
    32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
    33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
    34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
    35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
    36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
    37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
    38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
    39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
    40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
    41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
    42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
    43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
    44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
    45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
    46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
    47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
    48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
    49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
    50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
    51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
    54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
    55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
    56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
    57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
    58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Blane View Post
    There are many wonderful truths hidden within 1 Cor 15. It also contains a verse which has perplexed me for years. In fact, it's a verse that seems rather odd, at least to me. It's almost like Paul misspoke when he wrote it. But I know better, for all scripture is God breathed.

    Anyway, does anyone have any insight into what Paul meant in 1 Cor 15:29? This verse sounds just a tad bit Mormon to me. The only thing I can figure at this point, is that I'm not understanding the true meaning of what 1 Cor 15:29 is meant to convey.

    Blane


    1 Cor 15
    29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
    Hi, Blane,

    Yes, I remembered this one for its alien feel. Normally I would not suggest jumping right into a commentary. This is one exception. I believe John Gill's exceptional knowledge of Old Testament law and tradition gleaned from Jewish rabbis and writers provides the necessary cultural context. It is not New Testament baptism as we understand it.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Blane View Post
      29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
      Hmmmm,

      I don't really know what this here is all about.

      Paul's use of the word "they," though, does seem to tell me that he is probably not a practitioner of whatever this is. If it was something he took part in, and he had taught the Corinthians to take part in, it would seem he would have said, "we." I get the feeling that this verse made perfect sense to the 1st century Christians who read/heard this letter at the time.

      Blessings,

      Travis

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Travis View Post
        Hmmmm,

        I don't really know what this here is all about.

        Paul's use of the word "they," though, does seem to tell me that he is probably not a practitioner of whatever this is. If it was something he took part in, and he had taught the Corinthians to take part in, it would seem he would have said, "we." I get the feeling that this verse made perfect sense to the 1st century Christians who read/heard this letter at the time.

        Blessings,

        Travis
        Good point, Travis. I haven't considered it from that perspective. Maybe Paul was making mention of a practice that was common in his day, which he didn't agree with or participate in.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Baruch View Post
          Hi, Blane,

          Yes, I remembered this one for its alien feel. Normally I would not suggest jumping right into a commentary. This is one exception. I believe John Gill's exceptional knowledge of Old Testament law and tradition gleaned from Jewish rabbis and writers provides the necessary cultural context. It is not New Testament baptism as we understand it.
          Thanks Barry. I'll take a peek at what Mr Gill has to offer on this passage.

          Blane

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Blane View Post
            Good point, Travis. I haven't considered it from that perspective. Maybe Paul was making mention of a practice that was common in his day, which he didn't agree with or participate in.
            Ya, I don't know really. There doesn't seem to be enough info to tell us whether he agreed with it or not, without knowing exactly what he is referring to, I suppose.

            Lot's of idea's out there, very little solid information to go off of. It might have been nice if some of the early Christians had preserved commentaries on the scriptures for us or something, would probably clear up a lot of common misconceptions or confusions that relate to not knowing specific contexts.

            Also, if Ephesians chapter 4 is true, when it tells us:

            4 There is one body and one Spirit--just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call--
            5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
            6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

            and there is only "one baptism," then how could there be this other baptism for the dead that people practice, right? If that's the case, then wouldn't it either have to be referring to the "one baptism," to be something legit? How many baptisms can there be? Just a thought.

            Peace,

            Travis

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Travis View Post
              It might have been nice if some of the early Christians had preserved commentaries on the scriptures for us or something, would probably clear up a lot of common misconceptions or confusions that relate to not knowing specific contexts.
              That's good thinking. The early church fathers--Iranaeus and those men, who were taught directly by the apostles--have left copious writings. One of the reasons I like Gill's commentary is because he drew from many such sources that were written in or close to the era under study.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Baruch View Post
                That's good thinking. The early church fathers--Iranaeus and those men, who were taught directly by the apostles--have left copious writings. One of the reasons I like Gill's commentary is because he drew from many such sources that were written in or close to the era under study.
                That made me think of something. I download one of Irenaeus's books in audio format the other day. It was hard to listen to though, so I haven't finished it, all this talk about Aeons and metaphysical gnostic stuff:

                https://librivox.org/against-heresies-by-irenaeus/

                I think Irenaeus was second generation, men like Polycarp were definitely first generation after the 12 though. Here is one of his books too:

                https://librivox.org/epistle_polycarp_philippians/

                :threadjack:

                Back on topic:

                One theory I've come across is:

                "Just north of Corinth was a city named Eleusis. This was the location of a pagan religion where baptism in the sea was practiced to guarantee a good afterlife. The Corinthians were known to be heavily influenced by other pagan customs. It may be that the Corinthians were being influenced by the Eleusis religious practices where baptism for the dead was practiced. The point is that even the pagans believe in the resurrection, otherwise, why would they baptize for the dead? So, the resurrection is a reality and is going to happen. This interpretation is based upon the use of the third person plural (they) which the verb “baptizo” is in. But it is problematic that Paul would bring up this heathen practice as if somehow it should teach a lesson to the Corinthians without any refutation."
                http://www.lawofliberty.com/study%20...ismfordead.pdf

                It's possible that God has hidden a nugget in this passage of scripture for us. But I figure if there is something of import there it must be mentioned elsewhere as well in the scriptures. I'm interested to hear more though.

                Travis

                Comment


                • #9
                  This is a passage very dear to my heart. Not the specific verse, but the entire passage. I always wondered about the resurrection of the body.

                  Could it be that he is pointing out that being baptised for a physical body is a waste of time, when only the spiritual body will be raised?

                  So many preachers preach about our physical bodies being raised. I would get very confused over this till I read that flesh and blood shall not enter the Kingdom.

                  I would love more explanation on this.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Travis View Post
                    That made me think of something. I download one of Irenaeus's books in audio format the other day. It was hard to listen to though, so I haven't finished it, all this talk about Aeons and metaphysical gnostic stuff:

                    https://librivox.org/against-heresies-by-irenaeus/

                    I think Irenaeus was second generation, men like Polycarp were definitely first generation after the 12 though. Here is one of his books too:

                    https://librivox.org/epistle_polycarp_philippians/

                    :threadjack:

                    Back on topic:

                    One theory I've come across is:

                    "Just north of Corinth was a city named Eleusis. This was the location of a pagan religion where baptism in the sea was practiced to guarantee a good afterlife. The Corinthians were known to be heavily influenced by other pagan customs. It may be that the Corinthians were being influenced by the Eleusis religious practices where baptism for the dead was practiced. The point is that even the pagans believe in the resurrection, otherwise, why would they baptize for the dead? So, the resurrection is a reality and is going to happen. This interpretation is based upon the use of the third person plural (they) which the verb “baptizo” is in. But it is problematic that Paul would bring up this heathen practice as if somehow it should teach a lesson to the Corinthians without any refutation."
                    http://www.lawofliberty.com/study%20...ismfordead.pdf

                    It's possible that God has hidden a nugget in this passage of scripture for us. But I figure if there is something of import there it must be mentioned elsewhere as well in the scriptures. I'm interested to hear more though.

                    Travis
                    Hi Everyone,

                    It could well be that Paul is addressing this group that has been deceived by both errors:

                    That is the baptism of the dead

                    And then later that the dead will not rise.


                    He simply points out why do you baptize the dead IF no one will rise anyway.

                    He shows them that they have to wrong about at least one of these errors.

                    When they see that they have been wrong, some may then examine themselves and turn to the Lord in repentance and have their eyes opened as only The Lord can do.

                    Lou Newton

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Lou Newton View Post
                      Hi Everyone,

                      It could well be that Paul is addressing this group that has been deceived by both errors:

                      That is the baptism of the dead

                      And then later that the dead will not rise.


                      He simply points out why do you baptize the dead IF no one will rise anyway.

                      He shows them that they have to wrong about at least one of these errors.

                      When they see that they have been wrong, some may then examine themselves and turn to the Lord in repentance and have their eyes opened as only The Lord can do.

                      Lou Newton
                      This makes sense. John Gill presents this same basic explanation as one of several possible meanings of the verse. So, this verse may seem out of place because Paul was only touching on a subject in this verse that he had already talked with the Corinthians about at length. That is, erroneous teachings that the Corinthians had received about baptism and the resurrection of the dead.

                      Thanks Lou.

                      Blane

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by TennesseeLinda View Post
                        This is a passage very dear to my heart. Not the specific verse, but the entire passage. I always wondered about the resurrection of the body.

                        Could it be that he is pointing out that being baptised for a physical body is a waste of time, when only the spiritual body will be raised?

                        So many preachers preach about our physical bodies being raised. I would get very confused over this till I read that flesh and blood shall not enter the Kingdom.

                        I would love more explanation on this.
                        The best explanation I can find is in 1 Cor 15:35-50...




                        35
                        But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

                        42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
                        If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”[a]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we[b] bear the image of the heavenly man.
                        50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by TennesseeLinda View Post
                          This is a passage very dear to my heart. Not the specific verse, but the entire passage. I always wondered about the resurrection of the body.

                          Could it be that he is pointing out that being baptised for a physical body is a waste of time, when only the spiritual body will be raised?

                          So many preachers preach about our physical bodies being raised. I would get very confused over this till I read that flesh and blood shall not enter the Kingdom.

                          I would love more explanation on this.
                          Hi Linda,

                          The scripture Blane posted is a very good answer to your questions:

                          The best explanation I can find is in 1 Cor 15:35-50...

                          35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

                          42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
                          If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”[a]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we[b] bear the image of the heavenly man.
                          50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
                          And you are certainly right that Paul is pointing out that water baptism of the body is not the important baptism, just as sacrificing an animal was not the important sacrifice.

                          The baptism by water was but a shadow of the baptism of the Holy Spirit that everyone must have to enter into heaven.

                          All of Israel was baptized in water when they crossed the red sea, but shortly thereafter they also made Arron build a golden calf for them to worship. The cloud that led them by day was a shadow of the baptism of the Holy Spirit instead of baptism by liquid water. For the cloud was but a vapor instead of water that can be put in a container by men.

                          The baptism of water is done by men even in the scriptures as John the Baptist and the disciples baptized in water. But Jesus baptizes with His Holy Spirit and that is the ONE baptism that counts.

                          Ephesians 4 1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)

                          1 I therefore, being prisoner in the Lord, pray you that ye walk worthy of the vocation whereunto ye are called,

                          2 With all humbleness of mind, and meekness, with long suffering, supporting one another through love,

                          3 Endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

                          4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your vocation.

                          5 There is one Lord, one Faith, one Baptism.

                          6 One God and Father of all, which is above all, and through all, and in you all.
                          Certainly any sane man should be able to see that the baptism of The Holy Spirit is the most important baptism. So Paul is pointing out in verse 5 that there is only ONE baptism, and that of course is the baptism of The Holy Spirit.

                          Also when Peter was sent to the house of Cornelius, in acts, we can see that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is the only one that counts:

                          Acts 10

                          Peter at Cornelius's House
                          23 Then Peter invited the men into the house to be his guests. The next day Peter started out with them, and some of the brothers from Joppa went along. 24 The following day he arrived in Caesarea. Cornelius was expecting them and had called together his relatives and close friends. 25 As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence. 26 But Peter made him get up. "Stand up," he said, "I am only a man myself." 27 Talking with him, Peter went inside and found a large gathering of people. 28 He said to them: "You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with a Gentile or visit him. But God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. 29 So when I was sent for, I came without raising any objection. May I ask why you sent for me?" 30 Cornelius answered: "Four days ago I was in my house praying at this hour, at three in the afternoon. Suddenly a man in shining clothes stood before me 31 and said, 'Cornelius, God has heard your prayer and remembered your gifts to the poor. 32 Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter. He is a guest in the home of Simon the tanner, who lives by the sea.' 33 So I sent for you immediately, and it was good of you to come. Now we are all here in the presence of God to listen to everything the Lord has commanded you to tell us." 34 Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right. 36 You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, telling the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. 37 You know what has happened throughout Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached-- 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him. 39 "We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a tree, 40 but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. 41 He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen--by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42 He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. 43 All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name." 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, 47 "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.
                          We can see that God baptized these Romans with His Holy Spirit BEFORE they were dipped in water. If God accepts them BEFORE the water baptism it proves God accepts men without being dipped in water.

                          It also shows that no man will be accepted by God without being baptized in His Holy Spirit. One can not have spiritual life without The Spirit.

                          Amen to what you say about flesh and blood can not enter heaven.

                          Many men teach the error that the rider on the white horse is the antichrist. But the antichrist is a man of flesh. And the scriptures you refer to proves that the rider on the white horse can not be the antichrist because no flesh is allowed into heaven.

                          Satan was not flesh and blood, but when he rebelled against God he was thrown out of heaven because of his sin. So it is foolish to teach that God would permit the antichrist into heaven to be crowned and ride out in glory

                          Plus the fact that is NOT God who gives the antichrist authority, but it is Satan who does so. But the rider on the white horse is given a crown by God.

                          Grace to you
                          Lou Newton

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Lou Newton
                            The baptism by water was but a shadow of the baptism of the Holy Spirit that everyone must have to enter into heaven.

                            All of Israel was baptized in water when they crossed the red sea, but shortly thereafter they also made Arron build a golden calf for them to worship. The cloud that led them by day was a shadow of the baptism of the Holy Spirit instead of baptism by liquid water. For the cloud was but a vapor instead of water that can be put in a container by men.

                            The baptism of water is done by men even in the scriptures as John the Baptist and the disciples baptized in water. But Jesus baptizes with His Holy Spirit and that is the ONE baptism that counts.


                            Originally posted by Lou Newton
                            We can see that God baptized these Romans with His Holy Spirit BEFORE they were dipped in water. If God accepts them BEFORE the water baptism it proves God accepts men without being dipped in water.

                            It also shows that no man will be accepted by God without being baptized in His Holy Spirit. One can not have spiritual life without The Spirit.

                            Luke 3:16
                            16 John answered and said to them all, “As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you [a]with the Holy Spirit and fire.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Blane View Post
                              Luke 3:16
                              16 John answered and said to them all, “As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
                              Let me know if I'm getting too far off topic here, but here I go:

                              Is Jesus baptizing us with fire one and the same as baptizing us with the Holy Spirit?

                              I've heard some different views of this idea, but I would like to take a clean and fresh look at this one.

                              Peace,

                              Travis

                              Comment

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