Revival

[Lou Newton]

"Revival and change are almost synonymous terms and both

clearly cut across traditionalism. There is no way true revival can

occur without major changes disrupting and reordering the life of

the Church... God is no traditionalist. While God is orderly, He is

always fresh and vital. If a church can run according to forms and

traditions of men, it will run without the presence and power of God...

Is it any wonder the love of tradition is an enemy to revival? Revival

and new life go hand in hand ... Let every church realize that the

inordinate love of tradition is a great opponent to revival ... When a

church slays the love of tradition, a major obstacle to revival will be

slain With it." - Richard Owen Roberts

[glen smith]

Richard Owen Roberts was one of those men I would have enjoyed studying under. Back in the 1970's my sister-in-law and I did our own studies on the history of religious awakenings in Britain and America from the 1700's forward. We both benefited from each others research. I have just enough knowledge to be able to ask good questions which I am certain Roberts could answer. Strangely, I disagree with him on the quote you posted. It would have been beneficial to hear him defend it against my objections and what history I know. I surely would have learned something. Of course, from this quote it is unknown to me what he meant by traditions. The part about change is accepted without being qualified. Revival and spiritual awakening are about spiritual changes.

[Lou Newton]

Richard Owen Roberts was one of those men I would have enjoyed studying under. Back in the 1970's my sister-in-law and I did our own studies on the history of religious awakenings in Britain and America from the 1700's forward. We both benefited from each others research. I have just enough knowledge to be able to ask good questions which I am certain Roberts could answer. Strangely, I disagree with him on the quote you posted. It would have been beneficial to hear him defend it against my objections and what history I know. I surely would have learned something. Of course, from this quote it is unknown to me what he meant by traditions. The part about change is accepted without being qualified. Revival and spiritual awakening are about spiritual changes.

Thanks Glen for the reply. I agree with his quote.

If a church can run according to forms and

traditions of men, it will run without the presence and power of God...

I think the following is what he is speaking of:

Any church that is run by any traditions of men will not have the presence of The Holy Spirit.

If men lead, then The Holy Spirit is NOT included. The Holy Spirit is NEVER a co pilot. The Holy Spirit never follows men. No act of God is ever brought about by the actions of men. God is either the King of all kings, or He is not included. God is either The Lord of all lords, or He is not included.

Romans 11 Doxology

³³ Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
³⁴ “Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?”
³⁵ “Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay them?”
³⁶ For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.

Men that think they know the mind of The Lord and think they can do as He would do, do not know God.

2 Peter 1
²¹ For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

I have found that The Holy Spirit always surprises me and I can never ever know what he is going to do.

What I read the gospels, I see no traditions of men included in anything Jesus does. In fact Jesus was often warning us NOT to follow the traditions of men.

What are your thoughts about these things:

[Lou Newton]

Here are some more quotes about revival:

"Revival is the Church of God as a conquering army putting to rout

the hosts of hell." - James A. Stewart


"Revival is torrents of living water flowing out of the individual

believer." - James A. Stewart


"Revival is the beauty of holiness adorning the saints."

- James A. Stewart


"Revival is restoring the years the locusts have eaten."

- James A. Stewart


"Revival is the people of God constrained, gripped, overmastered,

and overwhelmed by the love of Christ, so that they are feverishly

restless to win souls for Christ." - James A. Stewart


"I believe there is one thing for which God is very angry with our

land, and for which His Holy Spirit is so little among us, and that

is the neglect of united prayer; the appointed means of bringing

down the Holy Spirit." - Brownlow North


"Revival and change are almost synonymous terms and both

clearly cut across traditionalism. There is no way true revival can

occur without major changes disrupting and reordering the life of

the Church... God is no traditionalist. While God is orderly, He is

always fresh and vital. If a church can run according to forms and

traditions of men, it will run without the presence and power of God...

Is it any wonder the love of tradition is an enemy to revival? Revival

and new life go hand in hand ... Let every church realize that the

inordinate love of tradition is a great opponent to revival ... When a

church slays the love of tradition, a major obstacle to revival will be

slain With it." - Richard Owen Roberts


"There is no question that God works, often powerfully, in the old

structures. But it is inevitable that those very structures put

serious limitations on His working. It is all too easy for the ground

gained to be lost, for the situation to revert, and for the whole

process to need repeating within a short space of time. Take the

1950, Lewis Awakening. Though confined to certain Presbyterian

churches in the Outer Hebrides, this was a powerful movement of

the Spirit that deeply affected those communities at the time.

Many found faith in Christ, and some of these are now in full-time

service. But the fact remains that in less than a decade you could

visit those very churches where God had worked so powerfully and

never suspect that they had ever tasted revival. Without a change

of structure it is virtually Impossible to conserve the fruits of revival."

- Arthur Wallis


"Perhaps the greatest barrier to revival on a large scale is the fact

that we are too interested in a great display. We want an

exhibition; God is looking for a man who will throw himself entirely

on God. Whenever self-effort, self-glory, self-seeking or self-

promotion enters into the work of revival, then God leaves us to

ourselves." - Ted S. Rendall


"All practical power over sin and over men depends on maintaining

closet communion. Those who abide in the secret place with God

show themselves mighty to conquer evil, and strong to work and

to war for God. They are seers who read His secrets; they know

His will; they are the meek whom He guides in judgment and

teaches His way. They are His prophets who speak for Him to

others, and even forecast things to come. They watch the signs

of the times and discern His tokens and read His signals." -

A. T. Pierson

[glen smith]

It seems the condemnation by the Lord Jesus of "the traditions of men" was over the expansion of the law - not primarily over forms of worship - although there were some rituals and practices associated with the expanded law. I remain uncertain how Roberts used the phrase.

I have been apart of true revival and change. It fades quickly in most but changes some of us forever.
Revivals I have experienced occur because of one of these three things but never over forms of worship.
(1) a miracle
(2) revived expectation of the emanate return
(3) preaching

I am yet to experience a revival because of prayer, although, I have read historical accounts where revival came in answer to prayer.
Those of us for whom revival changed forever, we always desire to see His power return. I've never talked to one of these forever changed believers who could explain why revival happened or how to make it happen again. We all pray and desire for a new revival but are powerless to effect a genuine movement of the Holy Ghost among a congregation.

Recently, I was part of a group advising an older rural congregation on attracting younger members.
The advise of the other advisors included all sorts of on line media presentation, new programs for younger couples and their children, calling a young pastor, and worship changes - about 20 advisors in all. I waited to last to give input. My advise was completely ignored.
I gave a short history about the development of neighborhood and rural congregations and why that was an outdated mode for the successful growth of most congregations.

My advice was to present the following for the approval of the congregation.
(1). Because they were without a pastor I advised for them to stop looking for a new pastor.
(2.) Meet to pray 3 times each week unless compelled to meet more often.
(3.) Meeting should include only a couple of songs by the congregation (no choir or solos) and silent prayer.
(4.) No leaders of the meetings.
(5.) Meetings would last until the last person left or until there was an unanimous vote to adjourn.

The results might take months or never produce results.
But if there were results it could be the birth of the next American revival.
Be prepared for some members to leave. This would be a purge of those whose presence hinders the Holy Ghost.
If nothing ever happens, take your tithe and join the country club.

I ended with begging them to do this for the rest of us.
Afterwards, I wondered if ignoring my advice and my presence was because of the traditions of men or because I am a fanatic.
Needless to say, this was likely the first and last time I will be called upon to give such advice.

[Lou Newton]

It seems the condemnation by the Lord Jesus of "the traditions of men" was over the expansion of the law - not primarily over forms of worship - although there were some rituals and practices associated with the expanded law. I remain uncertain how Roberts used the phrase.

I have been apart of true revival and change. It fades quickly in most but changes some of us forever.
Revivals I have experienced occur because of one of these three things but never over forms of worship.
(1) a miracle
(2) revived expectation of the emanate return
(3) preaching

I am yet to experience a revival because of prayer, although, I have read historical accounts where revival came in answer to prayer.
Those of us for whom revival changed forever, we always desire to see His power return. I've never talked to one of these forever changed believers who could explain why revival happened or how to make it happen again. We all pray and desire for a new revival but are powerless to effect a genuine movement of the Holy Ghost among a congregation.

Recently, I was part of a group advising an older rural congregation on attracting younger members.
The advise of the other advisors included all sorts of on line media presentation, new programs for younger couples and their children, calling a young pastor, and worship changes - about 20 advisors in all. I waited to last to give input. My advise was completely ignored.
I gave a short history about the development of neighborhood and rural congregations and why that was an outdated mode for the successful growth of most congregations.

My advice was to present the following for the approval of the congregation.
(1). Because they were without a pastor I advised for them to stop looking for a new pastor.
(2.) Meet to pray 3 times each week unless compelled to meet more often.
(3.) Meeting should include only a couple of songs by the congregation (no choir or solos) and silent prayer.
(4.) No leaders of the meetings.
(5.) Meetings would last until the last person left or until there was an unanimous vote to adjourn.

The results might take months or never produce results.
But if there were results it could be the birth of the next American revival.
Be prepared for some members to leave. This would be a purge of those whose presence hinders the Holy Ghost.
If nothing ever happens, take your tithe and join the country club.

I ended with begging them to do this for the rest of us.
Afterwards, I wondered if ignoring my advice and my presence was because of the traditions of men or because I am a fanatic.
Needless to say, this was likely the first and last time I will be called upon to give such advice.

I also have seen revival take place and it is wonderful place to be. But every time it was fairly short lived. I seen leaders abandon the very things that brought revival and start doings things that are written in the scriptures to not do.

But I do not think it is what form of worship a group is led to take part in. I think the difference is letting God lead, and that causes revival to take place. But men do not seem to be content to follow His Holy Spirit. They do not know where they are going and do not like not knowing what tomorrow holds.

John 3
⁵ Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. ⁶ Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. ⁷ You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ ⁸ The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

The Spirit is The Holy Spirit of course. It is like the wind and we do not know where He came from or where He is going. ( I hope many will agree that the wind is often used as a type of the Holy Spirit in the scriptures). That is the way it is for those who follow His Holy Spirit. None of us like not knowing what tomorrow holds for us. But all do love coming to know Him better each day.

[redsoxmaloney]

I also have seen revival take place and it is wonderful place to be. But every time it was fairly short lived. I seen leaders abandon the very things that brought revival and start doings things that are written in the scriptures to not do.

But I do not think it is what form of worship a group is led to take part in. I think the difference is letting God lead, and that causes revival to take place. But men do not seem to be content to follow His Holy Spirit. They do not know where they are going and do not like not knowing what tomorrow holds.

John 3
⁵ Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. ⁶ Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. ⁷ You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ ⁸ The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

The Spirit is The Holy Spirit of course. It is like the wind and we do not know where He came from or where He is going. ( I hope many will agree that the wind is often used as a type of the Holy Spirit in the scriptures). That is the way it is for those who follow His Holy Spirit. None of us like not knowing what tomorrow holds for us. But all do love coming to know Him better each day.

I'll take that quote about traditions and go one more. Anything one decides to do because God used it in the past, or sounds right, more than likely is not from God. We absolutely never want to rely on the holy spirit; we are impatient and want to create a "spiritual event". While God is indeed orderly, one must ask him first, moment by moment, what should we do. Like the wind flowing here and there, so should we when following the spirit of Jesus. And just like that one quote, he will leave us to ourselves if there's any self in it, is exactly right. Paul takes great care to mention he is an apostle serving by the grace of our Lord Jesus. He never says apostle Paul with the intention of authority. Yet today, pastor this and teacher that, is as common place as Hillary taking lives and money. That is why our land is falling apart, and will continue to do so.

[Baruch]

My advice was to present the following for the approval of the congregation.
(1). Because they were without a pastor I advised for them to stop looking for a new pastor.
(2.) Meet to pray 3 times each week unless compelled to meet more often.
(3.) Meeting should include only a couple of songs by the congregation (no choir or solos) and silent prayer.
(4.) No leaders of the meetings.
(5.) Meetings would last until the last person left or until there was an unanimous vote to adjourn.

This stirred my spirit. I wish they had heeded this advice.

Paul did not use high words to persuade men, he preached the Gospel. Paul knew that if man can be persuaded by his high words, he can be dissuaded and persuaded another way by another's high words. Much more so for shiny gimmicks.