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What is the Problem for Salvation if only a human Jesus died?

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  • What is the Problem for Salvation if only a human Jesus died?

    Was Jesus only a perfect human or God?
    It is conundrum for every questioning believer:
    How can God die?
    How can the death of one atone for the sins of all?

    Erroneous Schemes known as Heresies

    The cultural concept of God as eternal and infinite does not allow for God to die, but Jesus died on the cross. Therefore, Jesus could not be God. This is an issue for the early Church. There were several attempts to reconcile this issue: Docetism, Bishop Paul of Samosata, Arius the presbyter from Alexandria, Patriarch Nestorius, and the position of Eutyches known as Monophysitism were attempts to resolve this dilemma.


    Salvation

    Even considering that Jesus was a perfect human, a single human life may be the requirement or substitute for only one other human life. The only means by which the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus atones for the sins of all men is if His value is absolutely perfect over and above all other possible good and infinitely greater than the combined worth of all those for whom He died.

    The only question left to answer is this: Who is worth more than all of creation if it is not the Creator? Accordingly, the scripture reveals in Colossians 1:15-20 ESV:
    15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
    The scriptures never answers how could God die?
    The fact of the death of the Lord Jesus is attested to by hundreds of eye witnesses.
    Apparently, God is not interested in revealing this answer.
    What God does reveal is that the Lord Jesus is God and He died on a Roman cross.
    The scriptures are explicit and detailed in revealing that this same Jesus who died on the cross was raised from the dead.

    What we are asked to believe is divine revelation rather than human reasoning and philosophies. We do not need to know what is not revealed because faith is important to God.

    The early Church Councils had to deal with these erroneous schemes to answer such issues.
    From these decisions is how we are given orthodox Christianity.
    Nearly every modern heresy is a version of one from the period of the early Church.
    The study of the need for the Church Councils and these decisions are essential to recognizing heresy in ones own belief and why the erroneous belief is inadequate.
    Last edited by glen smith; February 20th, 2018, 05:25 PM.

  • #2
    Jesus was both God and Man.

    His Godhood was the One and Only Creator of everything that exists. God has no beginning and no end, and no Mother and no Father. He is LIFE and there is no death in Him. Death can no overtake Him or have victory in any way over Him. So God can never die.

    Adam trusted in Eve, who trusted in Satan instead of trusting God. Their spirit died that very day. But God planned to save them even before they were created. God did it this way just because that is the way He wanted to do it. He wanted to prove to all men that He loves us.

    So God's Holy Spirit made Mary with child and then came down from heaven to become a man to die for us. The manhood of Jesus choose to obey God and shed His blood for our sin. The Manhood of Jesus died on the cross that day and was buried. A man had to die for us, because he had to be our closest relative to be our Kinsman-Redeemer. This man had to be fully a man and not God. So the Manhood of Jesus had to obey God and the Manhood of Jesus had to die for us. BUT Jesus was also fully God and as The One and Only God He created everything that exists. The Godhood of Jesus had to forsake the manhood of Jesus because he had to die for our sin. God can not become sin and had to separate himself from the sin of the world.

    The Godhood of Jesus did not die. There is One and Only One God. If God had died there would be no one to raise Him from the dead. But ETERNAL LIFE can not die. God is ETERNAL LIFE.

    Notice this passage:

    Matthew 27
    The Death of Jesus


    45 From noon until three in the afternoon darkness came over all the land. 46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli,[c]lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

    47 When some of those standing there heard this, they said, “He’s calling Elijah.”

    48 Immediately one of them ran and got a sponge. He filled it with wine vinegar, put it on a staff, and offered it to Jesus to drink. 49 The rest said, “Now leave him alone. Let’s see if Elijah comes to save him.”

    50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

    Real Life, or eternal life is in the Spirit. God is Spirit and Life. Without the Spirit of God and His Life we can not have eternal life.

    When Jesus gave up His Spirit He died. But His Holy Spirit did not die, but left Him because his Manhood took on the sin of the world.

    But The Holy Spirit of Jesus is LIFE. Real Life, or eternal life has no part in death. Just as righteousness has no part in sin.

    John 2

    18 The Jews then responded to him, “What sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?”

    19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”

    20 They replied, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?” 21 But the temple he had spoken of was his body. 22 After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.


    If the Godhood of Jesus was dead, how could He raise Himself from the dead ?

    As to His Manhood, Jesus was a man and a little lower than the angels. His manhood choose to obey God which proves we are guilty of sin. For it proves God created us with the ability to obey Him. But because we fear death we hang onto our natural life ( which is not eternal life) and we are selfish instead. So we hang onto natural life and give up eternal life being the fools we are.

    So we all have to be born again. We are born of water in our natural birth, but we have to be born of the spirit and be born again. When The Holy Spirit enters our spirit it gives us eternal life ( or real life) For natural life is not real life, because it is only temporary and not eternal.

    But as to His Godhood, Jesus is the One an Only God who created everything that exists.

    Isaiah 9 Geneva Bible

    6 For unto us a child is born, and unto us a Son is given: and the government is upon his shoulder, and he shall call his name, Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The prince of peace.

    Everlasting Father means He was always The Father and always will be The Father. This Everlasting Father of Jesus could never die, because He is EVERLASTING, or eternal.

    Isaiah 43
    10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord,
    “and my servant whom I have chosen,
    so that you may know and believe me
    and understand that I am he.
    Before me no god was formed,
    nor will there be one after me.
    11 I, even I, am the Lord,
    and apart from me there is no savior.

    Jesus had to be FULLY man and FULLY God.

    The Manhood of Jesus chose to obey God and also chose to die for our sin and become sin so that we could be forgiven.

    The Godhood of Jesus is The One and Only God who created everything that exists and is our Father.

    The Godhood of Jesus is FULLY God and not something less than God Almighty. If Jesus is one iota less that God Almighty, He would not be God at all.

    Jesus can not be part of God, for that would be far short of God and not all of God. Jesus had to be ALL of God Almighty.
    Last edited by Lou Newton; February 21st, 2018, 02:14 PM.

    Comment


    • #3
      You explain this similarly to the adherents of the Samosatene Doctrine in which Arius also believed. They believed that Jesus Christ was not actually God, but rather, a man, in whom lived a divine spirit which inspired and guided Him. When Christ died, that spirit fled from Him, since nothing divine can die. (Hence, Jesus's famous dying words, Eli, Eli, lama sabacthani) Thus, according to this model, it was only Jesus-the-man who actually died. This simple assertion that Jesus was less than fully divine got them in trouble. Many of the more intellectual Arianists, however, could not help but come to this conclusion, based on the logic of the basic Samosatene premise.
      Three councils held at Antioch (264-268, or 269) condemned the teachings of Samosatene and Arius. The Council of Nicea in A.D. 325 also condemned this teaching.

      Because this view was declared a heresy by a Church Council an alternative was presented which was that Jesus had two natures which could not be separated. The two natures of Jesus refers to the doctrine that the one person Jesus Christ had/has two natures, divine and human. In theology this is called the doctrine of the hypostatic union, from the Greek word hypostasis (which came to mean substantive reality). Early church figures such as Athanasius used the term "hypostatic union" to describe the teaching that these two distinct natures (divine and human) co-existed substantively and in reality in the single person of Jesus Christ. The aim was to defend the doctrine that Jesus was simultaneously truly God and truly man, even on the cross.

      The doctrine of the hypostatic union (the two natures of Jesus) was adopted as orthodox doctrine at the Council of Chalcedon in A.D. 451. Three major schools of theology were involved at the council: Alexandria, Antioch, and the West. The consensus of these three schools in the Chalcedonian Creed illustrates the universality of the ancient church. The creed asserted two distinct natures, human and divine, and affirmed the one person of Jesus Christ.

      Lou posted "Jesus had to be FULLY man and FULLY God." However, he goes on to describe Jesus as two different men - one as a God and one as a human rather than co-existed substantively and in reality in the single person of Jesus Christ. This a irreconcilable problem with all forms of modalism which always fails in explaining how the death of one sinless, human Jesus could have the value to atone or to justify for the suffering and sins of all mankind. It seems such ideas that only a human died on the cross is about a wrong belief about death rather than how God in the flesh could not die.

      If you actually want me to answer John 2:19, I could start providing the forum with a Bible study on the Fatherhood of God and the relationship between the Father and the Son. You might be strained to reply to that much material.
      Last edited by glen smith; February 27th, 2018, 09:09 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by glen smith View Post
        You explain this similarly to the adherents of the Samosatene Doctrine in which Arius also believed. They believed that Jesus Christ was not actually God, but rather, a man, in whom lived a divine spirit which inspired and guided Him. When Christ died, that spirit fled from Him, since nothing divine can die. (Hence, Jesus's famous dying words, Eli, Eli, lama sabacthani) Thus, according to this model, it was only Jesus-the-man who actually died. This simple assertion that Jesus was less than fully divine got them in trouble. Many of the more intellectual Arianists, however, could not help but come to this conclusion, based on the logic of the basic Samosatene premise.
        Three councils held at Antioch (264-268, or 269) condemned the teachings of Samosatene and Arius. The Council of Nicea in A.D. 325 also condemned this teaching.

        Because this view was declared a heresy by a Church Council an alternative was presented which was that Jesus had two natures which could not be separated. The two natures of Jesus refers to the doctrine that the one person Jesus Christ had/has two natures, divine and human. In theology this is called the doctrine of the hypostatic union, from the Greek word hypostasis (which came to mean substantive reality). Early church figures such as Athanasius used the term "hypostatic union" to describe the teaching that these two distinct natures (divine and human) co-existed substantively and in reality in the single person of Jesus Christ. The aim was to defend the doctrine that Jesus was simultaneously truly God and truly man, even on the cross.

        The doctrine of the hypostatic union (the two natures of Jesus) was adopted as orthodox doctrine at the Council of Chalcedon in A.D. 451. Three major schools of theology were involved at the council: Alexandria, Antioch, and the West. The consensus of these three schools in the Chalcedonian Creed illustrates the universality of the ancient church. The creed asserted two distinct natures, human and divine, and affirmed the one person of Jesus Christ.

        Lou posted "Jesus had to be FULLY man and FULLY God." However, he goes on to describe Jesus as two different men - one as a God and one as a human rather than co-existed substantively and in reality in the single person of Jesus Christ. This a irreconcilable problem with all forms of modalism which always fails in explaining how the death of one sinless, human Jesus could have the value to atone or to justify for the suffering and sins of all mankind. It seems such ideas that only a human died on the cross is about a wrong belief about what is death rather than how God in the flesh could not die.

        If you actually want me to answer John 2:19, I could start providing the forum with a Bible study on the Fatherhood of God and the relationship between the Father and the Son. You might be strained to reply to that much material.
        I made it very clear, and so does the Bible, that Jesus is not only a man, but He is fully the One and Only God Almighty.

        Comment


        • #5
          Quotes from post #2 by Lou

          Jesus was both God
          and Man.

          His Godhood was the One and Only Creator of everything that exists. God has no beginning and no end, and no Mother and no Father. He is LIFE and there is no death in Him. Death can no overtake Him or have victory in any way over Him.

          So God's Holy Spirit made Mary with child and then came down from heaven to become a man to die for us. The manhood of Jesus choose to obey God and shed His blood for our sin. The Manhood of Jesus died on the cross that day and was buried. A man had to die for us, because he had to be our closest relative to be our Kinsman-Redeemer. This man had to be fully a man and not God. So the Manhood of Jesus had to obey God and the Manhood of Jesus had to die for us.

          The Godhood of Jesus had to forsake the manhood of Jesus because he had to die for our sin. God can not become sin and had to separate himself from the sin of the world.

          The Godhood of Jesus did not die. There is One and Only One God. If God had died there would be no one to raise Him from the dead. But ETERNAL LIFE can not die. God is ETERNAL LIFE.

          When Jesus gave up His Spirit He died. But His Holy Spirit did not die, but left Him because his Manhood took on the sin of the world.
          Matthew 27:46

          46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli,[c]lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).


          If the Godhood of Jesus was dead, how could He raise Himself from the dead ?

          John 2

          18 The Jews then responded to him, “What sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?”

          19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”

          20 They replied, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?” 21 But the temple he had spoken of was his body. 22 After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.

          As to His Manhood, Jesus was a man and a little lower than the angels. His manhood choose to obey God which proves we are guilty of sin. For it proves God created us with the ability to obey Him.

          But as to His Godhood, Jesus is the One an Only God who created everything that exists.

          Isaiah 9 Geneva Bible

          6 For unto us a child is born, and unto us a Son is given: and the government is upon his shoulder, and he shall call his name, Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The prince of peace.

          Everlasting Father means He was always The Father and always will be The Father. This Everlasting Father of Jesus could never die, because He is EVERLASTING, or eternal.

          Jesus had to be FULLY man and FULLY God.

          The Manhood of Jesus chose to obey God and also chose to die for our sin and become sin so that we could be forgiven.

          The Godhood of Jesus is The One and Only God who created everything that exists and is our Father.

          The Godhood of Jesus is FULLY God and not something less than God Almighty. If Jesus is one iota less that God Almighty, He would not be God at all.
          ==================================================

          Reply:

          I have copied parts of your post and underlined sections so that you will be convinced that I actual read before commenting.

          I am aware of your multiple statements “Jesus had to be FULLY man and FULLY God.” I am sorry you felt the need to repeat that in post #4 when I had quoted this statement of yours from post #2 in my post #3. While this is an orthodox statement you went on to qualify what you meant by it which defines the statement differently than orthodoxy, – but I do not think that is a concern for you. Your reply never addressed any of the points made in my post #3. Therefore, I will reword the issues.

          To me your view seems not to be the one person Jesus with 2 natures i.e the hypostatic union as held as orthodox,
          but 2 Jesus with 2 natures.
          As in -
          (1) A fully human Jesus who died on the cross void of deity.
          (2) A spiritual “Godhood” Jesus who is fully deity void of humanity.

          In your view there is a time during the earthly ministry of Jesus when the one physical body born of Mary contained all there is of God. However, the God Jesus vacates the physical body of manhood Jesus on the cross while continuing to be the God Jesus until the resurrection event when the God Jesus reenters the body of the manhood Jesus.

          Making a statement and then qualifying it as you have done makes the qualification the definition. You go on to describe a fully God Jesus and a fully human Jesus. That adds up to 2 of Jesus each existing separately – each having an independent existence.

          I will not explain again the classical failure of this view for Soteriology (post #1) since it does not present irreconcilable problem for you.

          Please do not write back that there are NOT 2 of Jesus and contradict the mechanics of your own qualifications for I will not reply.

          I suggest you either change your qualifications or accept your own qualification of the mechanics of what you mean by the statement “Jesus had to be FULLY man and FULLY God.”

          Comment

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