HOW SHOULD OUR FORUM BE RUN

[Lou Newton]

How should any church worship service be run ?

Paul tells us how to do it in the following scripture:

Corinthians 14

Orderly Worship

26 What then shall we say, brothers?, When you come together everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church.
27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, two--or at the most three--should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret.
28 If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God.
29 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said.
30 And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop.
31 For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged.
32 The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets.
33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace. As in all the congregations of the saints,
34 women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says.
35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
36 Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached?
37If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command.
38 If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored.
39 Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.
40 But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.

NOTICE that Paul says EVERYONE should take part. NOT, having one man run the whole show.

The practice of having one man run the church is NOT from God. I will try to show why that is true in this article.

1st of all, to say our forum is not a church in not scriptural. Anywhere two or three followers of Christ gather, that is church. Church is NOT building, but a group of Christians.

This forum is for Christians, or those who seek to find out about Jesus; so it is a church. Many claim their forum is not a church just so they can ignore the commands of Christ about church.

BUT, we have many types of gatherings here, so different rules apply at different gatherings.

EVERYONE should take part in the worship of Jesus. Those that are called should teach, or preach. Those that are given songs should share them. Many should share testimonies of the great things Jesus has done in their life, or the life of others.

NOTICE Paul also says All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church.

Lou Newton

[redsoxmaloney]

Hey Lou,
I didn't realize that it said in Corinthians women shouldn't speak at all. Then I feel like God showed me why that's there. He wishes that deeply personal and intimate things be shared just the two of them, and that can't happen in a church setting. People are always inter mixing between themselves. You always end up seeing women talking to other women's husbands, and I think God wants it not to be that way. Much personal intimacy is lost between God, husband, and wife. God is a God that rescues and redeems, not just limits for no reason. Good luck with the visible church listening to that!

[Baruch]

Glad you addressed that, redsoxmaloney. This is a modern bone of major contention, and there are problems with its interpretation that must be overcome.

The Greek text had no punctuation, capitalization, or paragraph breaks to help with cadence and grouping of concepts. I can't imagine reading one huge run-on sentence. It's like...some parts of the Internet.

Here is a significantly different rendering from KJV.

1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
1Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
1Co 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

We also have to consider textual context. The context here seems very large. Barnes commentary puts it starting in chapter 12. Chapter 13 introduced gifts, and 14 is dealing specifically with tongues, which the Corinthians seemed very fond of in public worship. Paul expressed how this is a detriment to order, and adds correction. I cannot tell how far Paul meant they should take this, but it seems he was very stern with regards to Corinth.

Some have pointed to other instances in the New Testament where women did prophesy, and lead.

What may be special about Corinth is that the pagan deity of the city was Venus. Speculation suggests that women teaching, etc. would be particularly risky for the church at Corinth, due to the relation of Venus to women. Barnes says, "it was enjoined by law, that 1,000 beautiful females should officiate as courtesans, or public prostitutes, before the altar of the goddess of love. In a time of public calamity and imminent danger, these women attended at the sacrifices, and walked with the other citizens singing sacred hymns." So women leading worship would certainly be a danger to the purity of the church there; and perhaps Paul was thinking in general along these lines as he wrote here in 1 Corinthians, as well as 1 Timothy:

1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

I hope this adds something useful.

[Baruch]

The Greek word for "women" is consistently translated woman, women, wife, wives. This is different from young, unmarried women. Not sure if this has much of a bearing in these passages, but it seems to in other topics.

Not sure if I was clear enough in my words about 1Co 14. Paul is discussing the public worship, which is directed by men of office in Corinth and other churches of the age. The expectation of church as an organization, office, and ordinance is also clear from other passages. (I do not think organized church is bad, but it is bad for lazy congregations who find it easy to follow a man instead of Christ.) Paul's goal seems clearly the edification and stability of the church, the order (not confusion) of the public congregation, and deriving its model from God's commandments.

So with this in mind--the forum is a form of church--I'm interested in hearing what Lou has to say. It is an unusual situation.

There are some worshipful things we can and cannot do well in a forum. I do believe that when we come together in this medium in the name of Jesus Christ, he is in our midst.

[Fisherman]

Lou - you graciously started this forum, so in my opinion you are entitled to manage it as you deem reasonable. If you thought some aspect of the forum should or should not be permitted based upon Biblical standard(s) then that is your call and I would hope people here would understand and abide by it accordingly. In essence you are hosting this forum, and as such you are certainly in the position to determine its overall direction and content. Just my two cents worth.

[Lou Newton]

Lou - you graciously started this forum, so in my opinion you are entitled to manage it as you deem reasonable. If you thought some aspect of the forum should or should not be permitted based upon Biblical standard(s) then that is your call and I would hope people here would understand and abide by it accordingly. In essence you are hosting this forum, and as such you are certainly in the position to determine its overall direction and content. Just my two cents worth.

Thanks Tom. I have been busy today fixing the A/T of a truck for a person who could not afford to fix it.

I will respond to this issue soon.

Lou

[Lou Newton]

Originally posted by Baruch View Post
I find this one completely amazing. I won't even try to explain it. It blows me away.

Ex 34:21 Six days you shall work, but the seventh day you shall rest -- in the sowing and in the harvest you shall rest.

Rth 2:7 And she said, I shall collect together please, and I will bring in the sheaves behind the ones harvesting. And she came and stood, from morning and until evening, she did not rest in the field a little.
Rth 2:8 And Boaz said to Ruth, Did you not hear, O daughter? You should not go to collect into another field, and you should not go from here; you join up here with my young women!
Rth 2:9 And let your eyes be unto the field where ever mine should harvest! and you should go after them. Behold, I gave charge to the servants to not touch you. And when you shall thirst, then you shall go to the vessels, and you shall drink from where the servants should draw water.
Rth 2:10 And she fell upon her face, and did obeisance upon the ground, and said to him, Why is it that I found favor in your eyes to recognize me, and I am a stranger?
Rth 2:11 And Boaz answered and said to her, By report it was reported to me all as much as you have done with your mother-in-law after the dying of your husband; and how you left behind your father, and your mother, and the land of your origin, and went to a people which you did not know yesterday and the third day before.
Rth 2:12 May the lord repay your work, and may your wage be full from the lord God of Israel, to whom you came to yield under his wings.

Gen 8:22 All the days of the earth, seed and harvest, chilliness and sweltering heat, summer and spring, day and night, will not be caused to cease.

Amen, the story of Ruth is a whole subject in itself. Great story.

How about these words of Ruth:

Ruth 1 15 "Look," said Naomi, "your sister-in-law is going back to her people and her gods. Go back with her."
16 But Ruth replied, "Don't urge me to leave you or to turn back from you. Where you go I will go, and where you stay I will stay. Your people will be my people and your God my God.
17 Where you die I will die, and there I will be buried. May the LORD deal with me, be it ever so severely, if anything but death separates you and me."

Has any mere human being ever spoke any words that were more beautiful ?

Ruth is one of my heroes. She is a example of a godly woman that very few rise to.

She is a leader among the people of The Lord Jesus. She did not lead by putting herself forward as a leader, but she led by her humility and servant attitude.

That is how Jesus Himself led and few want to follow.

I do not know of a more Christ like human in all of scripture, history, or real life. She led by her Christ like example which very few even try to follow.

How many other women have had God name a book of the Holy Scriptures after them ?

How many other women have had God put their name in the genealogy of Jesus Christ ?

How many women can say that they have David and Christ as their grandchildren ?

NO OTHER WOMAN CAN MAKE ALL OF THESE CLAIMS EXCEPT RUTH.

And this is really amazing considering she was born of the nation of Moab. Here is the curse God put on Moab:

Deuteronomy 23 3 No Ammonite or Moabite or any of his descendants may enter the assembly of the LORD, even down to the tenth generation.
4 For they did not come to meet you with bread and water on your way when you came out of Egypt, and they hired Balaam son of Beor from Pethor in Aram Naharaim to pronounce a curse on you.#cr
5 However, the LORD your God would not listen to Balaam but turned the curse into a blessing for you, because the LORD your God loves you.
6Do not seek a treaty of friendship with them as long as you live.

Solomon built the temple and he was only the 4th generation from Ruth.

Truly anyone who trusts in Jesus to save them is forgiven of any curse or sin.

What a story of the redemption by our Redeemer.

Truly anyone, no matter if man, woman, or child; who possesses Christ possesses everything there is to possess and lacks not one thing.

Ruth was a woman who left everything, her father, mother, brothers, sisters, and nation; to live in the land where Melchizedek had ruled. She did not seek anything for herself for doing so. She did not claim to be a leader or ask for any riches.

SHE ASKED FOR NOTHING, BUT OBTAINED EVERYTHING.

Please someone show me something, anything more beautiful than this.


Lou Newton

[redsoxmaloney]

Really amazing Lou. And great points from Baruch and the fisherman. I was going to add a thought or two. Jesus obviously loved Ruth, and her testimony is amazing. So I don't think God wants to punish women by not letting them speak in church; I think He feels like they are better suited in another role. Ruth could not have spoke to Boaz any louder than she did by going to his field and humbly picking up the leftovers in his field, not asking for help. My grandma picked after me and took care of me sometimes without saying a word and gladly being my servant that I did not deserve. I can only hope my daughter is like that. And my other grandma, who has helped us more than we can repay, doesn't ask for anything other than we include her in our lives. So again, I think that men and women have different roles to play. One is not more valuable than the other. The role that they play is different, and that's why God says what he says.

[Lou Newton]

Really amazing Lou. And great points from Baruch and the fisherman. I was going to add a thought or two. Jesus obviously loved Ruth, and her testimony is amazing. So I don't think God wants to punish women by not letting them speak in church; I think He feels like they are better suited in another role. Ruth could not have spoke to Boaz any louder than she did by going to his field and humbly picking up the leftovers in his field, not asking for help. My grandma picked after me and took care of me sometimes without saying a word and gladly being my servant that I did not deserve. I can only hope my daughter is like that. And my other grandma, who has helped us more than we can repay, doesn't ask for anything other than we include her in our lives. So again, I think that men and women have different roles to play. One is not more valuable than the other. The role that they play is different, and that's why God says what he says.

Hi Tom,

Thanks for the reply.

Amen to that. Ruth is an example to us all. What a "teacher". "preacher", and "evangelists" she was and still is today. I have never heard a sermon as powerful as her story in her book of the Holy Scriptures. She did all this without one word of correction to anyone. She is a TOWERING figure in the Bible. I do not know anyone except Jesus himself that I want to meet more than Ruth.

The woman has been given an honor to show the world the nature of Jesus Christ that is His highest nature:

Philippians 2 Imitating Christ's Humility

1 If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion,
2then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being onein spirit and purpose.
3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves.
4 Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing,taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death-- even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

When God was born of a woman and shed His blood for us He revealed the very highest nature of God. Therefore God exalted the Name of Jesus as the very highest name of God. That is because, in Jesus, God revealed His highest nature to the world.

He did not come down to make us cower in fear, or shake in our boots because He was God Almighty. He is The Creator who created everything that exists. Think of how powerful He must be. But He did not come to reveal His power, but came to reveal His love for us. When Jesus returns He will reveal His Glory and Power.

The Lord Jesus does not desire that anyone serve Him out of fear. He wants us to trust Him because we know that He loves us so much that He would leave heaven and be be born of a woman and shed His blood for us. How could anyone ever show such HUMILITY and such LOVE.

I know of no one that was an example of Christ more than Ruth.

That is why Ruth is my hero.

Lou Newton

[Lou Newton]

NOW TO ADDRESS THE ISSUE WITH MORE SPECIFICS

We have several fine Christian women that are members of this forum.

I have never felt anything they posted was contrary to the example Ruth set for them.

I have been a member of another forum where I can not say the same. I feel very strongly many woman there were acting like men. I do not think a woman should be a moderator or preacher. I feel a woman perverts her position of humility when she takes any kind of authority over a man.

I have decided to refuse to sit under a woman preacher or teacher or moderator. But I will consider it an honor to be taught by any woman as Ruth taught us all.

I can say that my son Isaac's mother was a fine example of this for most of our marriage. She did not try to take authority over me, and did not try to teach me. I can remember when we first got married we had decided to buy a new car. We had looked at a VW Golf and I really liked them and we decided to buy one. But as I was down in Gulfport Mississippi working all kinds of overtime I had many paychecks in my wallet that I had not had time to even cash yet. I flew back to Ohio and we were driving in our car and talking about a new car. I mentioned that I had looked at several more expensive and nicer cars and maybe we should get one of those instead of the humble Golf.

She did not show one bit of anger, or even one shred of correction. She humbly said, "Oh, I thought we were going to buy the Golf". I can not put into words how The Holy Spirit of The Lord Jesus spoke to me through her humility. I was not corrected by her, but by His Holy Spirit. I answered, you are right, we will buy the Golf. I did not feel put down by her in the least, BUT I did feel corrected by The Holy Spirit through her humble attitude.

We bought the Golf and it was very good car that served us very well. We drove it all over the US and never had one drop of trouble with it. We even pulled a small trailer with it. I sold it after we drove it about 60,000 miles in almost four years. we paid $8000 for it and I sold it for $5000.

Solomon says '"a chord of three strands is not easily broken". The three strands are the Lord Jesus, the husband, and the wife. When they operate in this harmony and love it is the most powerful sermon to the world.

Ponder what a rope of three strands look like and how all three are woven together. That is a natural example of what a marriage between a man and a woman should be. No one stand is struggling to be bigger than the others. They all are more concerned about "hugging one another" and have no thought about being separate.

Even Jesus, who is the One and Only God Almighty, does not treat us like slaves. He acts like our Servant.

I feel it is my security to be His slave. It is my desire to be His slave that can not leave and it made to do His will.

But He never treats me like a slave. But instead acts like my servant.

WHAT A GOD WE SERVE !

Lou Newton

[Baruch]

I appreciate how you handled that topic both deftly and respectfully, Lou.

[Lou Newton]

Really amazing Lou. And great points from Baruch and the fisherman. I was going to add a thought or two. Jesus obviously loved Ruth, and her testimony is amazing. So I don't think God wants to punish women by not letting them speak in church; I think He feels like they are better suited in another role. Ruth could not have spoke to Boaz any louder than she did by going to his field and humbly picking up the leftovers in his field, not asking for help. My grandma picked after me and took care of me sometimes without saying a word and gladly being my servant that I did not deserve. I can only hope my daughter is like that. And my other grandma, who has helped us more than we can repay, doesn't ask for anything other than we include her in our lives. So again, I think that men and women have different roles to play. One is not more valuable than the other. The role that they play is different, and that's why God says what he says.

Amen Tom. Thanks for the great reply.

Women are not less than men just because God has given them a different role.

Here are the very words of Jesus Himself:

Luke 9
46 An argument started among the disciples as to which of them would be the greatest.
47 Jesus, knowing their thoughts, took a little child and had him stand beside him.
48 Then he said to them, "Whoever welcomes this little child in my name welcomes me; and whoever welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me. For he who is least among you all--he is the greatest."
49 "Master," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us."
50 "Do not stop him," Jesus said, "for whoever is not against you is for you."

What do you think most people in Bethlehem thought of Ruth. She was a poor widow who had lost everything. But much worse, she was from the despised nation of Moab which God had said no one from Moab was allowed in the Temple even after 10 generations.

When Boaz went to the city gate and asked if any closer relative wanted to marry Ruth, no one claimed her.

BUT none of the other women of Israel of that day have a book of the bible named after them. She was least and did not try to press forward and claim a higher position. She was content to leave The Lord give her whatever portion He decided to give her.

Luke 14
7 When he noticed how the guests picked the places of honor at the table, he told them this parable:
8 "When someone invites you to a wedding feast, do not take the place of honor, for a person more distinguished than you may have been invited.
9 If so, the host who invited both of you will come and say to you, 'Give this man your seat.' Then, humiliated, you will have to take the least important place.
10 But when you are invited, take the lowest place, so that when your host comes, he will say to you, 'Friend, move up to a better place.' Then you will be honored in the presence of all your fellow guests.
11For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

Ruth humbled herself, so God exalted her. If she had exalted herself, God would have humbled her.

Considering these words of Jesus you would think that those who claim to follow Him would be insisting to take the lowest position instead of fighting to attain the highest seat at the table.

Ruth did not get a sign and protest that people from Moab were as good as those from Israel. She did not join a women's group to protest that woman should be given the same position as men.

Read her whole book and see how humble her speech and actions were. Look at how God honored her for doing so.

We all can learn from Ruth.

[Lou Newton]

I appreciate how you handled that topic both deftly and respectfully, Lou.

All praise to The Lord who is the Only One who is righteous and gives good gifts to the foolish to confound the wise.

[Lou Newton]

Let us think of children. Are they LESS than their parents ?

Of course they are not. David was not less than Jesse. Moses was not less than his father.

BUT God told them as children to obey their parents. Because David was told to obey Jesse, that did not make him less than Jesse. But if David had not obeyed his father and not honored his father, God would not have chose him to be King.

David was considered the LEAST of his family. We know this because they did not even have him come to the dinner with Samuel, but had him keep watching the sheep in the field. All the other sons of Jesse were invited to have Samuel look them over, except for David.

But God did not choose any of the sons that were considered to be worthy, but chose the one that no one thought to even invite.

God told me that I would have son late in life and he would be a child of promise, so call him Isaac.

I required him to obey me even though I considered him greater then me.

God tells women this:

Ephesians 5 22 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.
24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

Just because woman are told to obey their husbands that DOES NOT MAKE THEM LESS IN ANY WAY, just as children are not less than their parents who they are told to obey.

If we claim this is outdated and not for today, then homosexuals can claim that to call homosexuality a sin is also outdated. If this scripture is outdated, then can not the whole world claim the whole Bible is outdated.

Wives are told to submit to their husbands as they would Christ. Of course those that do not obey this scripture are not only not obeying their husband, but they are also not obeying Christ.

This is not a popular passage today. I have not heard many preach on it. But I did not write this, but The Holy Spirit wrote it.

Of course some will claim that Paul wrote it and not The Lord. But where is it shown that is the case. If we claim that The Holy Spirit did not write it, then the whole world can claim that men wrote the whole Bible instead of God.

Of course that passage is The Lord's letter to the wife and NOT the husband. So husbands should not be reading their wife's letter and telling them to obey.

The Lord Jesus also wrote a letter to the husband:
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her
26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,
27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.
28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.
29 After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church--
30 for we are members of his body.
31 "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh."
32 This is a profound mystery--but I am talking about Christ and the church.
33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

Husbands are told to wash their wife with the water of the word. If they do not do that, then if their wives are rebellious, it is partially on them.

If husbands do not lay down their life for their wives as the Lord laid down His life then they are not obeying The Lord.

If a man loves his wife like this, then she is more apt to do as God asks her, and to obey her husband.

The mystery that The Holy Spirit speaks of here is about Christ.

We are called His body. No man ( and Christ was God Almighty, but He was also a man) can hate his own body. No man would cut off the least appendage of his body willingly.

We are part of His Body. Jesus can not hate us, and would never cut us off, just as no man would cut off his arm, or even his little finger for he loves all of his body.

Lou Newton

[Baruch]

I appreciate how you handled that topic both deftly and respectfully, Lou.

All praise to The Lord who is the Only One who is righteous and gives good gifts to the foolish to confound the wise.

This stuff does indeed confound the wise.

When I'm studying, I put the full power of my mind to it and I can't figure out His secrets. The best ones He shows to me, it seems, when the book is closed and my mind is wandering. How marvelous, and humbling. What an amazing God we serve.