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  • Still honestly trying to comprehend the Trinity...

    I sent this 18 min video to Lou and asked for his input. I had never heard of Michael Pearl or his ministry until this video came up on a Google search yesterday morning. I never would have taken the time to listen, but it caught my eye because it was on a topic I had been praying about.

    Anyway, Lou wrote back and suggested I start a thread instead. He felt that this is such a broad topic that it would be difficult to address my question in a single email.

    Although Pearl seems to have wisdom and knowledge, I don't know anything about him or his ministry. I'm starting this thread in hopes of getting more insight and clarity on the topic of the Godhead.

    At this point, I neither endorse nor reject what Michael Pearl is saying in this 18 min video. I only seek more insight, understanding and clarity regarding the Godhead.

    What do the scriptures reveal regarding this most magnificent topic?

    God bless,

    Blane
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kpDY_p11QA



  • #2
    I enjoyed Michael's explanation, Blane. Thanks for posting this. Some might call it a cop out, that God is one, but He is also three.

    Who are the three? The ones who bear record in heaven. They are one, they bear the same record.

    Who is the one? He is the one that we can only begin to understand by knowing the three.

    God fashioned our natural relationships which image His own, at least in part so that we can understand how we are constructed in His image, and what is required for Him to give us life (who began as lifeless dust), and the depth and magnitude and excellence of His attributes. I would conclude it requires the three to give us life: take any one away and we could not live.

    I'm very curious what others will say.

    Comment


    • #3
      This issue has been a very controversial one for many, many years. I think part of the reason people have difficultly with it is because our sinful, human nature has, to some degree, prevented us from fully understanding it. The Scriptures are rather clear that God is one absolute entity, holy and eternal. Yet, the Scriptures also tell us that this same God has various characteristics - even having different roles, yet always one and the same. Also God chooses to reveal Himself to us as He so desires and at a time of His choosing. The whirlwind, the burning bush, etc. And I don't think it is at all coincidental that God decreed that by the testimony of three, the truth is established.

      I'll try to write more later.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Blane View Post
        I sent this 18 min video to Lou and asked for his input. I had never heard of Michael Pearl or his ministry until this video came up on a Google search yesterday morning. I never would have taken the time to listen, but it caught my eye because it was on a topic I had been praying about.

        Anyway, Lou wrote back and suggested I start a thread instead. He felt that this is such a broad topic that it would be difficult to address my question in a single email.

        Although Pearl seems to have wisdom and knowledge, I don't know anything about him or his ministry. I'm starting this thread in hopes of getting more insight and clarity on the topic of the Godhead.

        At this point, I neither endorse nor reject what Michael Pearl is saying in this 18 min video. I only seek more insight, understanding and clarity regarding the Godhead.

        What do the scriptures reveal regarding this most magnificent topic?

        God bless,

        Blane
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kpDY_p11QA


        Hi Blane,

        It is good to hear from you. I hope you are doing well.

        This is a good question and the scripture this man brings up is one that gave me pause for some time. BUT I did not try to answer it myself, but confessed to The Lord that I was blind and could not see. I also asked Him to please have mercy on me and give me sight.

        These are some of the things He told me and also led me to:

        If you asked me how many cars I had and I said one, and another asked me the same question and I answered three; would you say that I was truthful.

        Man did not invent math, God invented all math. Now 3 does not equal one.

        They are not the same. While God may be a mystery in some ways, he is NOT voodoo. Something can not be three and also be one. You can have one and it can have three parts, BUT then none of those three parts are the whole of the one, but only part of the one. Jesus is NOT part of God, but the whole of God.

        God can say He is merciful and He can also say that He is just. Justice does not forbid mercy and mercy does not forbid justice.

        But you can not add anything and get three and then add the same numbers and get One.

        Here is a scripture that is a law of God. He does not ask us to follow something that He does not follow Himself. We are not like cattle being driven, but we are like sheep that follow our Lord. We are told to do as He does.

        Deut 19
        A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.

        2 Cor 13

        1This will be my third visit to you. "Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses."

        Matthew 18
        15 "If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over.
        16 But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.'

        Every matter is to be settled by the testimony of two or three witnesses. God certainly also follows this law.

        Here is the scripture in question in the KJV Translation, not the original scriptures in Greek.
        1 John 5King James Version (KJV)

        5 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
        2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
        3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
        4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
        5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
        6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
        7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
        8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
        9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.


        1 - now I would first point out that there is no witness to this scripture in The Holy Scriptures.

        2 - Next I would say that if there are three that bear witness and they are the Spirit, the water, and the blood, and there are three that bear`witness in heaven of the Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost; then surely it follows that the Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost also bear witness on the earth also.

        If they do then that would make 6 that bear`witness of the earth, not three.

        BUT if there is ONE Spirit and Only One Spirit of God then the Spirit bears witness on the earth along with the water and the blood and that makes three that bear witness on the earth.


        3 - we know that there are not dueling scriptures but all scripture agrees. Jesus said the most important command of God is this:

        29"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.

        Now we know that everything that Jesus speaks is perfect and complete. It lacks nothing. Jesus could have said The Lord your God is Trinity. The Lord your God is three and also One, The Lord your God is three in one etc. But he did not say any of those things.

        In fact you can not find any place except for the scripture in question in the KJV where it says God is three. But you can find too many places to count where it says God is One, there is but One God etc.

        4 - So how do we deal with 1 John 5:7

        Well here is what God revealed to me:

        He told me to read the Tyndale version from 1525. Tyndale died for doing this work.

        Here is the passage from Tyndale:

        This Jesus Christ is he that came by water and blood, not by water only; but by water and blood. And it is the spirit that beareth witness, because the spirit in truth. ( For there are three which bear record in heaven, the father, the word, and the holy ghost. And these three are one). For there are three that which bear record (in earth) the spirit, and water, and blood, and these three are one.

        Now if you read Tyndales instructions for his NT you will see that he says that anything in parentheses is NOT in the scriptures at all, but is an added note from him.

        So all of the words in ( ) is not in the scriptures at all. That would include the word earth.

        So in 1525 the codex did not have the added part about the father, the word and the holy ghost being three and also did not have the word earth at all.

        SO HERE IS THE IMPORTANT QUESTION - IF THESE WORDS WERE NOT IN THE CODEX IN 1525, HOW DID THEY GET THERE BY 1611.

        Tyndale and the KJV translators used the same codex. It was NOT considered the best one, but second best. But the one that was most complete was in Russia? and they would not leave it out of their sight. When photpcopies were invented they allowed it to be photocopied. The NIV was translated from those copies.


        Here is the same passage from the NIV:
        1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well.
        2 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands.
        3 This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,
        4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.
        5Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.
        6 This is the one who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.




        Notice no mention of the father, the word and the holy ghost being three. Also notice of no mention of the word earth.

        I find is very ironic that the same church that had Tyndale strangled and then burnt at the stake also copied his work and also took his additions as scripture instead of his added comments.

        Now not only that, but if one gets a copy of that page of the codex they will see that those words in question are now there, BUT they appear to be added in. Now one could reason that they were added when it was written originally and so looks added in; BUT we must remember that they were NOT there in 1525.

        Now if we take the passage in question as true, then we have a contradiction with the rest of scripture. BUT if we take it as added, and not part of the Holy Scriptures at all, then there is no contradiction.

        I find that this translation to be a very good one:

        7
        For there are three that testify:

        8 the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

        Notice they all three not only testify on the earth, or only in heaven, but everywhere that exists.

        They are NOT one, but all are in agreement.

        When the Spirit testifies, that is all of God, for God is Spirit. I do not have part of God that lives in my spirit, but I have all of God that lives in me. If one has the Holy Spirit, then they have The Father and The Son that lives in them.


        Lou Newton
        Last edited by Lou Newton; January 10, 2016, 01:48 AM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Very deep and meaty to digest. Can you please elaborate Lou? Thanks. .... Steve

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Steve Hollander View Post
            Very deep and meaty to digest. Can you please elaborate Lou? Thanks. .... Steve

            My post # 4 has so much information to think about that I would suggest reading it several times over the next few days. Also one needs to investigate these things for himself. I will post more later tonight.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Lou Newton View Post


              My post # 4 has so much information to think about that I would suggest reading it several times over the next few days. Also one needs to investigate these things for himself. I will post more later tonight.
              Yummy. Lots of meat and potatoes.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Lou Newton View Post
                4 - So how do we deal with 1 John 5:7

                Well here is what God revealed to me:[/FONT][/COLOR]
                He told me to read the Tyndale version from 1525. Tyndale died for doing this work.

                Here is the passage from Tyndale:

                This Jesus Christ is he that came by water and blood, not by water only; but by water and blood. And it is the spirit that beareth witness, because the spirit in truth. ( For there are three which bear record in heaven, the father, the word, and the holy ghost. And these three are one). For there are three that which bear record (in earth) the spirit, and water, and blood, and these three are one.

                Now if you read Tyndales instructions for his NT you will see that he says that anything in parentheses is NOT in the scriptures at all, but is an added note from him.

                So all of the words in ( ) is not in the scriptures at all. That would include the word earth.

                So in 1525 the codex did not have the added part about the father, the word and the holy ghost being three and also did not have the word earth at all.

                SO HERE IS THE IMPORTANT QUESTION - IF THESE WORDS WERE NOT IN THE CODEX IN 1525, HOW DID THEY GET THERE BY 1611.

                Tyndale and the KJV translators used the same codex. It was NOT considered the best one, but second best. But the one that was most complete was in Russia? and they would not leave it out of their sight. When photpcopies were invented they allowed it to be photocopied. The NIV was translated from those copies.


                Here is the same passage from the NIV:
                1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well.
                2 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands.
                3 This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,
                4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.
                5Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.
                6 This is the one who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.




                Notice no mention of the father, the word and the holy ghost being three. Also notice of no mention of the word earth.

                I find is very ironic that the same church that had Tyndale strangled and then burnt at the stake also copied his work and also took his additions as scripture instead of his added comments.

                Now not only that, but if one gets a copy of that page of the codex they will see that those words in question are now there, BUT they appear to be added in. Now one could reason that they were added when it was written originally and so looks added in; BUT we must remember that they were NOT there in 1525.

                Now if we take the passage in question as true, then we have a contradiction with the rest of scripture. BUT if we take it as added, and not part of the Holy Scriptures at all, then there is no contradiction.

                I find that this translation to be a very good one:

                7
                For there are three that testify:

                8 the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

                Notice they all three not only testify on the earth, or only in heaven, but everywhere that exists.

                They are NOT one, but all are in agreement.

                When the Spirit testifies, that is all of God, for God is Spirit. I do not have part of God that lives in my spirit, but I have all of God that lives in me. If one has the Holy Spirit, then they have The Father and The Son that lives in them.


                Lou Newton
                Argh. How is this textual discrepancy not well known? It is plain to see when it is pointed out (like the hidden object embedded in the picture).

                Here is another rendering of the Tyndale 1525 showing Tyndale's words intermingled as comments: http://www.faithofgod.net/WTNT/1_john_5.html The error was not on Tyndale's part.

                For those with an interest in historical accounts: http://promethee.philo.ulg.ac.be/eng...ndale-More.htm. I remember when Lou wrote about this, and appreciated reading about it again. This tyndale folder has a number of documents on Tyndale, including a few renderings of the Bible translation he produced.

                Lou, thank you for pointing this out. And thank you, Jesus, for pointing this out to all!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Okay - I've thoroughly read and re-read all of the posts in this thread numerous times and I have to confess that I'm totally confused by it all.

                  Comment


                  • #10

                    Here is the passage in question in the KJV:
                    6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
                    7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
                    8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

                    Here is verse 6 in many English translations:



                    1 JOHN 5:6

                    KJ21
                    This is He that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

                    ASV
                    This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood.

                    AMP
                    This is He who came through water and blood [His baptism and death], Jesus Christ—not by the water only, but by the water and the blood. It is the [Holy] Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. [He is the essence and origin of truth itself.]

                    AMPC
                    This is He Who came by (with) water and blood [His baptism and His death], Jesus Christ (the Messiah)—not by (in) the water only, but by (in) the water and the blood. And it is the [Holy] Spirit Who bears witness, because the [Holy] Spirit is the Truth.

                    BRG
                    This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

                    CEB
                    This is the one who came by water and blood: Jesus Christ. Not by water only but by water and blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.


                    He is the one who came by means of water and blood, Yeshua the Messiah — not with water only, but with the water and the blood. And the Spirit bears witness, because the Spirit is the truth.

                    Water and blood came out from the side of Jesus Christ. It wasn’t just water, but water and blood. The Spirit tells about this, because the Spirit is truthful.

                    This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus [the] Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that bears witness, for the Spirit is the truth.

                    This One is the One having come by water and blood: Jesus Christ (not in the water only, but in the water and in the blood). And the Spirit is the One testifying, because the Spirit is the truth.

                    This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus Christ: not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit which testifieth, that Christ is the truth.

                    Jesus Christ is the one who came. He came with water and with blood. He did not come by water only. No, Jesus came by both water and blood. And the Spirit tells us that this is true. The Spirit is the truth.

                    This is he who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not by the water only but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.

                    This is he who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not by the water only but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.

                    Jesus Christ is the One who came by water [C likely a reference to Jesus’ baptism] and blood [C a reference to his death]. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And the Spirit ·says that this is true [is the one who testifies/bears witness; Mark 1:11; John 1:32–34], because the Spirit is the truth.

                    This is that Jesus Christ that came by water and blood: not by water only, but by water and blood: and it is that Spirit that beareth witness: for that Spirit is truth.

                    This Son of God is Jesus Christ, who came by water and blood. He didn’t come with water only, but with water and with blood. The Spirit is the one who verifies this, because the Spirit is the truth.

                    Jesus Christ is the one who came with the water of his baptism and the blood of his death. He came not only with the water, but with both the water and the blood. And the Spirit himself testifies that this is true, because the Spirit is truth.

                    Jesus Christ—He is the One who came by water and blood, not by water only, but by water and by blood. And the Spirit is the One who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.

                    Jesus Christ is the One who came with water and with blood. He did not come by water only. He came by both water and blood. And the Spirit says that this is true. The Spirit is the truth.

                    This man, Jesus the Messiah, is the one who came by water and blood—not with water only, but with water and with blood. The Spirit is the one who verifies this, because the Spirit is the truth.

                    Jesus Christ himself is the one who came by water and by blood—not by the water only, but by the water and the blood. The Spirit bears witness to this, for the Spirit is the truth. The witness therefore is a triple one—the Spirit in our own hearts, the signs of the water of baptism and the blood of atonement—and they all say the same thing. If we are prepared to accept human testimony, God’s own testimony concerning his own Son is surely infinitely more valuable. The man who really believes in the Son of God will find God’s testimony in his own heart. The man who will not believe God is making him out to be a liar, because he is deliberately refusing to accept the testimony that God has given concerning his own Son. This is, that God has given men eternal life and this real life is to be found only in his Son. It follows naturally that any man who has genuine contact with Christ has this life; and if he has not, then he does not possess this life at all.

                    ¶ This is Jesus, the Christ, who came by water and blood; not by water only, but by water and blood. And the Spirit is he that bears witness, because the Spirit is the truth.

                    This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

                    This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

                    This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ, not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.

                    And we know he is, because God said so with a voice from heaven when Jesus was baptized, and again as he was facing death—yes, not only at his baptism but also as he faced death.* And the Holy Spirit, forever truthful, says it too. So we have these three witnesses: the voice of the Holy Spirit in our hearts, the voice from heaven at Christ’s baptism, and the voice before he died.* And they all say the same thing: that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.*

                    Jesus—the Divine Christ! He experienced a life-giving birth and a death-killing death. Not only birth from the womb, but baptismal birth of his ministry and sacrificial death. And all the while the Spirit is confirming the truth, the reality of God’s presence at Jesus’ baptism and crucifixion, bringing those occasions alive for us. A triple testimony: the Spirit, the Baptism, the Crucifixion. And the three in perfect agreement.

                    This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. It is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is the truth.

                    This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not by · water only but by · water and · blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.

                    This Son of God is Yeshua Christ, who came by water and blood. He didn’t come with water only, but with water and with blood. The Spirit is the one who verifies this, because the Spirit is the truth.

                    This is the one who came through water and blood, Jesus Christ, not by water alone, but by water and blood. The Spirit is the one that testifies, and the Spirit is truth.

                    This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.

                    Jesus Christ is the One who came by water and blood. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And the Spirit says that this is true, because the Spirit is the truth.

                    Jesus Christ is the one who came by water and blood—not by the water only, but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.

                    Jesus Christ was born as we are, and he died on the cross. He wasn’t just born as we are. He also died on the cross. The Holy Spirit is a truthful witness about him. That’s because the Spirit is the truth.

                    This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.

                    This is the one who came by water and blood – Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.

                    This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.

                    Jesus Christ came by water and blood. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. The Holy Spirit speaks about this and He is truth.

                    And Jesus Christ was revealed as God’s Son by his baptism in water and by shedding his blood on the cross—not by water only, but by water and blood. And the Spirit, who is truth, confirms it with his testimony.

                    This is the one who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ, not with the water only but with the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one that testifies, for the Spirit is the truth.

                    This is the one who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ, not with the water only but with the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one that testifies, for the Spirit is the truth.

                    This is the one who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ, not with the water only but with the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one that testifies, for the Spirit is the truth.

                    This is the one who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ, not with the water only but with the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one that testifies, for the Spirit is the truth.

                    This One is the One having come by mayim and dahm, Yehoshua, Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach; not by the mayim only, but by the mayim and by the dahm; and the Ruach Hakodesh is the one giving solemn eidus, because the Ruach Hakodesh is HaEmes.

                    This is he who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ, not with the water only but with the water and the blood.

                    This is he who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ, not with the water only but with the water and the blood.

                    Who is the person conquering the world? It is the one who truly trusts that Jesus is the Son of God, that Jesus the Anointed is the One who came by water and blood—not by the water only, but by the water and the blood. The Spirit of God testifies to this truth because the Spirit is the truth.

                    This is he who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and the blood. It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.

                    There was water and there was blood when Jesus Christ came. There was not water only, but there was water and there was blood. The Spirit proves this is true, because the Spirit is true.

                    This is Jesus Christ, that came by water and blood; not in water only, but in water and blood. And the Spirit is he that witnesseth, that Christ is [the] truth.

                    This one is he who did come through water and blood -- Jesus the Christ, not in the water only, but in the water and the blood; and the Spirit it is that is testifying, because the Spirit is the truth,


                    You can see most agree fairly well.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Now let's look at verse 8 - we will look at verse 7 last:
                      1 JOHN 5:8

                      And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and these three agree in one.

                      For there are three who bear witness, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and the three agree in one.

                      the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three are in agreement [their testimony is perfectly consistent].

                      and there are three witnesses on the earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree [are in unison; their testimony coincides].

                      And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

                      the Spirit, the water, and the blood—and the three are united in agreement.

                      the Spirit, the water and the blood — and these three are in agreement.

                      They are the Spirit, the water, and the blood, and they all agree.

                      the Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and the three agree in one.

                      the Spirit and the water and the blood. And the three are for the one thing.

                      And there are three that give testimony on earth: the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three are one.

                      the Spirit, the water, and the blood. These three witnesses agree.

                      the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree.

                      the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree.

                      the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three witnesses ·agree [L are one].

                      And there are three, which bear record in the earth, the Spirit, and the Water and the Blood: and these three agree in one.

                      the Spirit, the water, and the blood. These three witnesses agree.

                      the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and all three give the same testimony.

                      the Spirit, the water, and the blood—and these three are in agreement.

                      the Spirit, the water, and the blood. These three witnesses agree.

                      And there are three witness on earththe Spirit, the water, and the blood—and these three are one.

                      Jesus Christ himself is the one who came by water and by blood—not by the water only, but by the water and the blood. The Spirit bears witness to this, for the Spirit is the truth. The witness therefore is a triple one—the Spirit in our own hearts, the signs of the water of baptism and the blood of atonement—and they all say the same thing. If we are prepared to accept human testimony, God’s own testimony concerning his own Son is surely infinitely more valuable. The man who really believes in the Son of God will find God’s testimony in his own heart. The man who will not believe God is making him out to be a liar, because he is deliberately refusing to accept the testimony that God has given concerning his own Son. This is, that God has given men eternal life and this real life is to be found only in his Son. It follows naturally that any man who has genuine contact with Christ has this life; and if he has not, then he does not possess this life at all.

                      And there are three that bear witness on earth, the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree in one.

                      And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

                      And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

                      the Spirit and the water and the blood, and the three are in agreement.

                      And we know he is, because God said so with a voice from heaven when Jesus was baptized, and again as he was facing death—yes, not only at his baptism but also as he faced death.* And the Holy Spirit, forever truthful, says it too. So we have these three witnesses: the voice of the Holy Spirit in our hearts, the voice from heaven at Christ’s baptism, and the voice before he died.* And they all say the same thing: that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.*

                      Jesus—the Divine Christ! He experienced a life-giving birth and a death-killing death. Not only birth from the womb, but baptismal birth of his ministry and sacrificial death. And all the while the Spirit is confirming the truth, the reality of God’s presence at Jesus’ baptism and crucifixion, bringing those occasions alive for us. A triple testimony: the Spirit, the Baptism, the Crucifixion. And the three in perfect agreement.

                      There are three that testify on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood, and the three are toward the one.

                      the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in · accord.

                      the Spirit, the water, and the blood. These three witnesses agree.

                      the Spirit, the water, and the blood, and the three are of one accord.

                      the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

                      the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three witnesses agree.

                      the Spirit and the water and the blood, and these three are in agreement.

                      They are the Holy Spirit, the birth of Jesus, and the death of Jesus. And the three of them agree.

                      the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

                      the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

                      And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.

                      There are three who speak of this on the earth: the Holy Spirit and the water and the blood. These three speak the same thing.

                      the Spirit, the water, and the blood—and all three agree.

                      the Spirit and the water and the blood, and these three agree.

                      the Spirit and the water and the blood, and these three agree.

                      the Spirit and the water and the blood, and these three agree.

                      the Spirit and the water and the blood, and these three agree.

                      the Ruach Hakodesh and the mayim and the dahm, and the shloshah are for solemn eidus.

                      There are three witnesses, the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree.

                      There are three witnesses, the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree.

                      the Spirit, the water, and the blood. All three are in total agreement.

                      the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and the three agree as one.

                      There are three on earth who prove it is true. They are the spirit, the water, and the blood. These three all prove the same thing.

                      And three be, that give witnessing in earth, the Spirit, water, and blood; and these three be one.

                      and three are who are testifying in the earth], the Spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three are into the one.




                      We can see that most also agree.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Now let us look at verse 7:

                        1 JOHN 5:7


                        For there are three that bear record in Heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one.


                        And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is the truth.


                        For there are three witnesses:


                        So there are three witnesses in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are One;


                        For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.


                        The three are testifying—


                        There are three witnesses —


                        In fact, there are three who tell about it.


                        For they that bear witness are three:


                        Because the ones testifying are three:


                        And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one.


                        So there are three witnesses that tell us about Jesus:


                        For there are three that testify:


                        For there are three that testify:


                        ·So [or For] there are three ·witnesses [who testify/bear witness]:


                        For there are three, which bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the holy Ghost: and these three are one.


                        There are three witnesses:


                        There are three witnesses:


                        For there are three that testify:


                        So there are three witnesses:


                        For there are three witnesses in heaven—the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one.


                        Jesus Christ himself is the one who came by water and by blood—not by the water only, but by the water and the blood. The Spirit bears witness to this, for the Spirit is the truth. The witness therefore is a triple one—the Spirit in our own hearts, the signs of the water of baptism and the blood of atonement—and they all say the same thing. If we are prepared to accept human testimony, God’s own testimony concerning his own Son is surely infinitely more valuable. The man who really believes in the Son of God will find God’s testimony in his own heart. The man who will not believe God is making him out to be a liar, because he is deliberately refusing to accept the testimony that God has given concerning his own Son. This is, that God has given men eternal life and this real life is to be found only in his Son. It follows naturally that any man who has genuine contact with Christ has this life; and if he has not, then he does not possess this life at all.


                        For there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.


                        For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.


                        For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.


                        For there are three that testify,


                        And we know he is, because God said so with a voice from heaven when Jesus was baptized, and again as he was facing death—yes, not only at his baptism but also as he faced death.* And the Holy Spirit, forever truthful, says it too. So we have these three witnesses: the voice of the Holy Spirit in our hearts, the voice from heaven at Christ’s baptism, and the voice before he died.* And they all say the same thing: that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.*


                        Jesus—the Divine Christ! He experienced a life-giving birth and a death-killing death. Not only birth from the womb, but baptismal birth of his ministry and sacrificial death. And all the while the Spirit is confirming the truth, the reality of God’s presence at Jesus’ baptism and crucifixion, bringing those occasions alive for us. A triple testimony: the Spirit, the Baptism, the Crucifixion. And the three in perfect agreement.


                        There are three who testify in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and the three are one.


                        For there are three that testify:


                        There are three witnesses:


                        So there are three that testify,


                        For there are three that testify:


                        So there are three witnesses:


                        For there are three that testify,


                        There are three that are witnesses about Jesus.


                        For there are three that testify:


                        For there are three that testify:


                        For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.


                        There are three Who speak of this in heaven: the Father and the Word and the Holy Spirit. These three are one.


                        So we have these three witnesses—


                        There are three that testify:


                        There are three that testify:


                        There are three that testify:


                        There are three that testify:


                        Because there are shloshah giving solemn eidus:


                        And the Spirit is the witness, because the Spirit is the truth.


                        And the Spirit is the witness, because the Spirit is the truth.


                        So there are three testifying witnesses:


                        For there are three who testify:


                        There are three in heaven who prove it is true. They are the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit. These three are one.


                        For three be, that give witnessing in heaven, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost [For three be, that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, or Son, and the Holy Ghost]; and these three be one.


                        because three are who are testifying [in the heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these -- the three -- are one;



                        Now in this verse we see that many do not agree:

                        This is why we have to trust in the person of the Lord Jesus and not ANY book. We trust in the Author of the Book instead of the Book.

                        Only the original Hebrew and Greek are the Holy Scriptures. The translations are just that, translations. They do not all agree.

                        But I would recommend any of them over any other works of man.

                        The Bible itself records that Jesus is The Word of God, NOT the Book.

                        No man can force Jesus to speak to them simply by reading a Book. No man causes God to act or speak.

                        Also Jesus can speak to any man He pleases to do so. Even if that man happened to be reading a translation that is in error. Jesus can even speak to any man that does not even have a copy of The Book. After all it was this way that God had men write The Holy Scriptures.
                        Last edited by Lou Newton; January 11, 2016, 04:06 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
                          Okay - I've thoroughly read and re-read all of the posts in this thread numerous times and I have to confess that I'm totally confused by it all.
                          Hi Tom,

                          Many will say confusion is never good. But consider this:

                          The Pharisees were not confused, but claimed to know the truth. But in truth, they did not know The Truth when he stood before them.

                          The disciples were confused many times. BUT they kept seeking and The Lord cleared up their confusion.

                          When any man admits that he is confused, he is confessing that he does not know the whole truth. That is confessing that he can not see clearly. Jesus gave sight to every man that made that confession and then asked Jesus to give him sight. The man that Jesus gave sight to and Jesus asked him if he could see then. The man said, I see, but men look like trees walking around, Then Jesus also healed his blurry vision.

                          We all have blurry vision and see as through a foggy window.

                          We might have to ask Jesus to give us sight more than once like that man did.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Lou Newton View Post

                            We all have blurry vision and see as through a foggy window.

                            We might have to ask Jesus to give us sight more than once like that man did.
                            Thanks Lou that answered my question as to why Jesus healed him twice. And I understand that it is sometimes necessary for us to have to receive our relief in segments or a little bit at a time.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
                              Okay - I've thoroughly read and re-read all of the posts in this thread numerous times and I have to confess that I'm totally confused by it all.
                              Hi Fisherman. Good to be talking with you again. Been a few years now.

                              This may be one of those profoundly deep bible mysteries that none of us will fully grasp this side of eternity. One thing I've learned over the years is this: The enemy likes to divide true believers by polarizing them around scriptures that appear to contradict one another. But scripture never contradicts scripture. I kinda liked Michael Pearl's overall explanation of the Godhead. I can't say I understand it all. But I do appreciate his humility and the wisdom I see in him.

                              God bless,

                              Blane

                              Comment

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