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The gospel is based upon eye witness testimony but walking in the Holy Ghost is not.

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  • The gospel is based upon eye witness testimony but walking in the Holy Ghost is not.

    Voddie Baucham’s sermon Why I Believe the Bible makes the excellent point that our Christian beliefs are based upon sound historical evidence. His presentation goes right to the point when encountering young Mormon missionaries doing their one year mission. Their defense is to say Mormonism is the truth because they know it is true in their heart. I can’t blame them for this approach since the well documented history of the founding of the Latter Day Saints is well attested to and known to be bogus. The point Voddie Baucham is making is that this is not the case for Christianity. There are now 16 million people who believe the LDS hoax.

    Voddie Baucham ended where I wish to start when he said, “And the Gospel works for me” or something like that. Regardless of how verifiable is the history of the Bible, history alone really isn’t a lesson unless the meaning is made relevant for the present age. We find this idea in the saying, “Those who don’t know history are doomed to repeat it.” – Edmund Burke. Well, my point is that all who know the Bible are not Christian. Making an apologetically argument about verification of the content of the Bible is not what makes Christianity Christianity. Ultimately, believers must join with the Mormons in their claim, “it is true in their heart.” It really is a contest about spiritual reality and relationship with the LORD.

    Regardless of how subjective and indefensible are ones own emotions and experience, the power of Christ in the believer is what makes Christianity viable, not history. Some Christians are first opened to faith in Christ by apologetics as presented by Voddie Baucham, buy not the vast majority. Most believers begin their walk with the Lord Jesus emotionally because the Holy Ghost has reached out and grabbed a lost person.

    I am not an apologist for the faith. I’m not good at that. I don’t argue well, but I wish I did. What I do know is the Holy Ghost will use me to pour grace where he wishes. Now, this is easy, because it is not about me, and it is joyous because I know that there is a spiritual awakening from the dead happening before my very eyes. I can see the LORD at work.

  • #2
    Interesting Glen. Thanks for pointing that out.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by glen smith View Post
      Voddie Baucham’s sermon Why I Believe the Bible makes the excellent point that our Christian beliefs are based upon sound historical evidence. His presentation goes right to the point when encountering young Mormon missionaries doing their one year mission. Their defense is to say Mormonism is the truth because they know it is true in their heart. I can’t blame them for this approach since the well documented history of the founding of the Latter Day Saints is well attested to and known to be bogus. The point Voddie Baucham is making is that this is not the case for Christianity. There are now 16 million people who believe the LDS hoax.

      Voddie Baucham ended where I wish to start when he said, “And the Gospel works for me” or something like that. Regardless of how verifiable is the history of the Bible, history alone really isn’t a lesson unless the meaning is made relevant for the present age. We find this idea in the saying, “Those who don’t know history are doomed to repeat it.” – Edmund Burke. Well, my point is that all who know the Bible are not Christian. Making an apologetically argument about verification of the content of the Bible is not what makes Christianity Christianity. Ultimately, believers must join with the Mormons in their claim, “it is true in their heart.” It really is a contest about spiritual reality and relationship with the LORD.

      Regardless of how subjective and indefensible are ones own emotions and experience, the power of Christ in the believer is what makes Christianity viable, not history. Some Christians are first opened to faith in Christ by apologetics as presented by Voddie Baucham, buy not the vast majority. Most believers begin their walk with the Lord Jesus emotionally because the Holy Ghost has reached out and grabbed a lost person.

      I am not an apologist for the faith. I’m not good at that. I don’t argue well, but I wish I did. What I do know is the Holy Ghost will use me to pour grace where he wishes. Now, this is easy, because it is not about me, and it is joyous because I know that there is a spiritual awakening from the dead happening before my very eyes. I can see the LORD at work.
      How true Glen.

      And:

      New International Version
      For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

      One has to give their life to The Lord Jesus and The Lord then comes into their spirit and they are born again with The Life of His Spirit. They then have to seek His Spirit and come to know Him more and more. Then it is simply following The One who you know and love and trust.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by glen smith View Post
        Regardless of how subjective and indefensible are ones own emotions and experience, the power of Christ in the believer is what makes Christianity viable, not history. Some Christians are first opened to faith in Christ by apologetics as presented by Voddie Baucham, buy not the vast majority. Most believers begin their walk with the Lord Jesus emotionally because the Holy Ghost has reached out and grabbed a lost person.
        Amen, Glen.

        Satan would hinder God's elect by any means. Attacking God's word is a key strategy, which he has done since Genesis 3. Weakening the authority of Scripture with lies sows doubt, and if our trust in Scripture is shaken we will be open to more lies. Sound apologetics builds my faith, but in retrospect it was not as beneficial when my understanding was poor. My heart had to be prepared, and in general reason is easier to wrestle against than visceral need.

        Jon 2:7 When my life was fainting away, I remembered the LORD, and my prayer came to you, into your holy temple. 8 Those who pay regard to vain idols forsake their hope of steadfast love. 9 But I with the voice of thanksgiving will sacrifice to you; what I have vowed I will pay. Salvation belongs to the LORD!" 10 And the LORD spoke to the fish, and it vomited Jonah out upon the dry land.

        The Lord pursued Jonah far and wide, though Jonah fled to avoid his calling. He laid hold on Jonah, and worked in him a need that he knew only the Lord can fill. The Lord calls, justifies, and glorifies His own. He is sovereign. He is able to accomplish all His will.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Baruch View Post

          Amen, Glen.

          Satan would hinder God's elect by any means. Attacking God's word is a key strategy, which he has done since Genesis 3. Weakening the authority of Scripture with lies sows doubt, and if our trust in Scripture is shaken we will be open to more lies. Sound apologetics builds my faith, but in retrospect it was not as beneficial when my understanding was poor. My heart had to be prepared, and in general reason is easier to wrestle against than visceral need.

          Jon 2:7 When my life was fainting away, I remembered the LORD, and my prayer came to you, into your holy temple. 8 Those who pay regard to vain idols forsake their hope of steadfast love. 9 But I with the voice of thanksgiving will sacrifice to you; what I have vowed I will pay. Salvation belongs to the LORD!" 10 And the LORD spoke to the fish, and it vomited Jonah out upon the dry land.

          The Lord pursued Jonah far and wide, though Jonah fled to avoid his calling. He laid hold on Jonah, and worked in him a need that he knew only the Lord can fill. The Lord calls, justifies, and glorifies His own. He is sovereign. He is able to accomplish all His will.
          Amen Barry,

          Adam had something far better than the Holy Scriptures, for they had not been written on paper with ink yet on this earth. But Adam had The Lord Himself telling him not to eat of the tree. But even with a personal word from God Himself, Adam still did not obey.

          Today with us, when we read The Holy Scriptures they mean little until The Lord speaks a truth to us while we read. It is the personal word from God Himself that changes us. It is that relationship with Him that He desires, not just "correct" behavior.

          Much of the church today claims to follow the laws written in the Holy Scriptures and calls The Book The "Word of God" to strengthen their authority when they teach their interpretation of it. But of course The Book itself calls Jesus, The Word of God. The Word of God is a Person, not The Book. The Book can not speak, or act; but The Lord Jesus can speak to us and act on our behalf.

          This is why God writes in His Book,

          New International Version
          For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

          The Book does not tell us to follow The Book, it tells us to follow The Lord Himself.

          The Pharisees seen God with their own eyes and heard Him with their own ears, yet they hung Him on cross. Their problem was they looked to The Book, instead of looking to The Author of The Book.

          John 5


          36 “I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to finish—the very works that I am doing—testify that the Father has sent me. 37 And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. 39You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

          The Jews wrote the words in The Book on paper and put them in a box on their forehead, but that is not what God meant by His Word dwelling IN them. The Only way for His Word to dwell IN us, is for us to confess our sin and give our lives to Him. Then The Holy Spirit, of The Word, comes and dwells IN us.

          Many today read The Holy Scriptures and decide for themselves the meaning of the words on the page. This is why there is so much disagreement about the scriptures. To know the meaning of what God said in the Holy Scriptures one has to bother to ask God and then wait for His answer. Many ask, then still decide for themselves instead of waiting on His answer.
          Last edited by Lou Newton; March 24, 2017, 10:49 AM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Lou Newton View Post

            Amen Barry,

            Adam had something far better than the Holy Scriptures, for they had not been written on paper with ink yet on this earth. But Adam had The Lord Himself telling him not to eat of the tree. But even with a personal word from God Himself, Adam still did not obey.

            Today with us, when we read The Holy Scriptures they mean little until The Lord speaks a truth to us while we read. It is the personal word from God Himself that changes us. It is that relationship with Him that He desires, not just "correct" behavior.

            Much of the church today claims to follow the laws written in the Holy Scriptures and calls The Book The "Word of God" to strengthen their authority when they teach their interpretation of it. But of course The Book itself calls Jesus, The Word of God. The Word of God is a Person, not The Book. The Book can not speak, or act; but The Lord Jesus can speak to us and act on our behalf.

            This is why God writes in His Book,

            New International Version
            For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

            The Book does not tell us to follow The Book, it tells us to follow The Lord Himself.

            The Pharisees seen God with their own eyes and heard Him with their own ears, yet they hung Him on cross. Their problem was they looked to The Book, instead of looking to The Author of The Book.

            John 5


            36 “I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to finish—the very works that I am doing—testify that the Father has sent me. 37 And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. 39You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

            The Jews wrote the words in The Book on paper and put them in a box on their forehead, but that is not what God meant by His Word dwelling IN them. The Only way for His Word to dwell IN us, is for us to confess our sin and give our lives to Him. Then The Holy Spirit, of The Word, comes and dwells IN us.

            Many today read The Holy Scriptures and decide for themselves the meaning of the words on the page. This is why there is so much disagreement about the scriptures. To know the meaning of what God said in the Holy Scriptures one has to bother to ask God and then wait for His answer. Many ask, then still decide for themselves instead of waiting on His answer.
            What are your thoughts about the post above ?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Lou Newton View Post

              What are your thoughts about the post above ?
              I did have one question. Is apologetics the argument by science or history the case for Christ? I really like this thread because it shows the understanding that if you don't know God in your heart, you do not know him. No knowledge can save you, unless God personally shares it with you.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Lou Newton View Post

                What are your thoughts about the post above ?
                I also must say that it gives me some joy to hear Jesus say to the pharisees that they never heard his voice or saw his form referring to himself and the form of the Father.

                Comment


                • #9
                  The replies are important comments about the differences between academic understanding and a personal encounter.

                  In the following Bible passages the Apostle Paul is speaking about the Jews who did not recognize the Lord Jesus as the Messiah. Their unbelief made it impossible for them to understand the old covenant. However, just as it was with the Apostle Paul, when the Jew or anyone else believed, the LORD enabled them to understand what the old covenant was about – and by implication these dynamics are now at work in the New Testament.

                  2 Corinthians 3:14-16 NASB
                  14 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. 15 But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; 16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
                  2 Corinthians 4:3 NASB
                  And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,

                  Witnessing to the lost is very easy. Proclaim who you know, and let the Holy Ghost do the rest! Our job is to proclaim. It is the Holy Ghost's job to convert. Learning what is our job and what is the LORD's job makes living the Christian life wonderful and easier if not easy. Much of our spiritual difficulties arise because in our desire to please the LORD we try to do His job. Learn the difference between what is the LORD's job and what the believer is to do, and be ready to say, "Not my job!" It feels so good to know the LORD "has your back!"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by glen smith View Post
                    The replies are important comments about the differences between academic understanding and a personal encounter.

                    In the following Bible passages the Apostle Paul is speaking about the Jews who did not recognize the Lord Jesus as the Messiah. Their unbelief made it impossible for them to understand the old covenant. However, just as it was with the Apostle Paul, when the Jew or anyone else believed, the LORD enabled them to understand what the old covenant was about – and by implication these dynamics are now at work in the New Testament.

                    2 Corinthians 3:14-16 NASB
                    14 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. 15 But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; 16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
                    2 Corinthians 4:3 NASB
                    And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,

                    Witnessing to the lost is very easy. Proclaim who you know, and let the Holy Ghost do the rest! Our job is to proclaim. It is the Holy Ghost's job to convert. Learning what is our job and what is the LORD's job makes living the Christian life wonderful and easier if not easy. Much of our spiritual difficulties arise because in our desire to please the LORD we try to do His job. Learn the difference between what is the LORD's job and what the believer is to do, and be ready to say, "Not my job!" It feels so good to know the LORD "has your back!"
                    Amen Glen. I might add that when someone tries to do the Lord's job, they are really irritating. Looking back, I can remember those who tried to do The Lord's job and they did not attract me to Christianity at all. I was repelled by them. BUT when someone followed The Holy Spirit and spoke what He told them to speak and do, I remember those events to this very day. I am very thankful for those people and The Lord who sent them.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by glen smith View Post
                      The replies are important comments about the differences between academic understanding and a personal encounter.

                      In the following Bible passages the Apostle Paul is speaking about the Jews who did not recognize the Lord Jesus as the Messiah. Their unbelief made it impossible for them to understand the old covenant. However, just as it was with the Apostle Paul, when the Jew or anyone else believed, the LORD enabled them to understand what the old covenant was about – and by implication these dynamics are now at work in the New Testament.

                      2 Corinthians 3:14-16 NASB
                      14 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. 15 But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; 16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
                      2 Corinthians 4:3 NASB
                      And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,

                      Witnessing to the lost is very easy. Proclaim who you know, and let the Holy Ghost do the rest! Our job is to proclaim. It is the Holy Ghost's job to convert. Learning what is our job and what is the LORD's job makes living the Christian life wonderful and easier if not easy. Much of our spiritual difficulties arise because in our desire to please the LORD we try to do His job. Learn the difference between what is the LORD's job and what the believer is to do, and be ready to say, "Not my job!" It feels so good to know the LORD "has your back!"
                      That's a good word Glenn. We have a knack for wanting to do someone else's job, even the Lord's, and NOT what he tells us to do. Very encouraging.

                      Comment

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