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  • Who or what should we follow

    I will state right up front, I would far rather follow a person that an object. Of course that person would have to prove to be worthy to follow. But Jesus proved he is worthy by being born of a woman and shedding his blood for us.

    It is written in the Book that Jesus alone is worthy:

    Revelation 4
    9 Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say:

    11“You are worthy, our Lord and God,
    to receive glory and honor and power,
    for you created all things,
    and by your will they were created
    and have their being.”

    Revelation 5
    Revelation 5New International Version (NIV)

    The Scroll and the Lamb


    5 Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. 2 And I saw a mighty angelproclaiming in a loud voice, “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?” 3 But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. 4 I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. 5 Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.”

    6 Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 He went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. 8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:

    “You are worthy to take the scroll
    and to open its seals,
    because you were slain,
    and with your blood you purchased for God

    persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
    10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
    and they will reign on the earth.”

    11 Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. 12 In a loud voice they were saying:

    “Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
    to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
    and honor and glory and praise!”

    13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying:

    “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
    be praise and honor and glory and power,
    for ever and ever!”

    14 The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.

    So Jesus is worthy for us to trust in Him and His Holy Spirit.

    But back to the other things we sometimes trust in:

    Edit: We can think we are trusting in the Holy Spirit or The Holy Scriptures, but we may be trusting in our own confidence instead. The Pharisees were a good example of this. They claimed to trust in the scriptures, BUT they were trusting in their own interpretation of the scriptures instead. We know this is true because The Holy Scriptures point to The Lord Jesus Christ and when he stood before their eyes and raised the dead, they did not recognize the Author of the Book they worshiped. If anyone trusts in the scriptures instead of trusting in His Holy Spirit, then how can they know the meaning of the scriptures without putting The Holy Spirit first.

    Yes, we men are blind and deaf, BUT Jesus made the blind to see and the deaf to hear; that is if they confessed that they could not see or could not hear. The Pharisees who confessed that they could see remained blind and deaf.

    BUT it seems you do not believe what The Bible clearly states:

    14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

    Men are given but one, and only one, work to do on this earth. That is to trust God to save them.


    Jesus made this clear when He stated:

    John 6

    28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

    29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

    Now the Devil believes Jesus is real, but is lost forever. So this is not the kind of belief God is speaking of here. If we truly believe Jesus we will trust Him.

    So the only work God has given us to do is to trust in The One He has sent to us.

    Notice that it is NOT written in The Book that we are to trust in The Book. Can you find me on place where this is written ?

    Adam and Eve had no Book. They had God in bodily form walk down from Salem in the cool of the evening and walk and talk with them. What more sure way could one have to follow God, than to walk with God Himself.

    BUT did that keep them from dying ( in their spirit ) . No, Eve, decided to trust in herself, rather than trust Adam who walked and talked with God.

    WHY, because she wanted to eat that beautiful piece of forbidden fruit. It looked so juicy and good, and she was told it would give her the ability to tell right from wrong. Now she claimed that the Serpent deceived her, but the Serpent just told her what she wanted to hear.

    Then what did Adam do ? Did he trust the one who came down to the garden every evening to be with him ? No, instead he trusted in Eve, who had a more pleasing body to look at.

    They did not believe the One that was sent to them. - we do no get to choose how God will appear to us, but we have to trust the One He sends to us. God appeared to Moses as the Angel of the Lord, but Moses had to learn to trust Him.

    The Book was NOT the first revelation given to men. Adam was given God himself to speak to him. But all men were given the creation well before they were given The Book. The Book itself states that:
    Psalm 19

    For the director of music. A psalm of David.

    1The heavens declare the glory of God;
    the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
    2 Day after day they pour forth speech;
    night after night they reveal knowledge.
    3 They have no speech, they use no words;
    no sound is heard from them.
    4 Yet their voice goes out into all the earth,
    their words to the ends of the world.

    God gave all men His creation to reveal His glory which is His Truth.

    But is that a more sure way to follow ? No, while God write messages to men with the stars and planets, men have imagined that those same stars can influence their life and the stars themselves can guide them. They look to the creation ( which God used to speak to them) rather than The Creator who made the stars.

    God had men write The Book for men to read. But how did God cause these men to write it ? He spoke to them with His Holy Spirit ? So it was men being guided by His Holy Spirit that wrote the Book. So if following The Holy Spirit is not a good way, then the Book itself is not good. BUT The Book is good, so following The Holy Spirit is good.

    Before The book was finished, God spoke to men with an Ephod. This would seem like a more sure way to follow God because it did not depend on any interpretation by mere men. But men did the same grievous thing with it. Instead of seeking to have communion with God himself they looked to the Ephod.
    Gideon’s Ephod

    22 The Israelites said to Gideon, “Rule over us—you, your son and your grandson—because you have saved us from the hand of Midian.”

    23 But Gideon told them, “I will not rule over you, nor will my son rule over you. The Lord will rule over you.” 24 And he said, “I do have one request, that each of you give me an earring from your share of the plunder.” (It was the custom of the Ishmaelites to wear gold earrings.)

    25 They answered, “We’ll be glad to give them.” So they spread out a garment, and each of them threw a ring from his plunder onto it. 26 The weight of the gold rings he asked for came to seventeen hundred shekels,[b] not counting the ornaments, the pendants and the purple garments worn by the kings of Midian or the chains that were on their camels’ necks. 27Gideon made the gold into an ephod, which he placed in Ophrah, his town. All Israel prostituted themselves by worshiping it there, and it became a snare to Gideon and his family.

    Now I do not think Gideon actually throught the Ephod was God, because he had actually talked with God in person and God proved to Gideon that it was Him that appeared to him. But God wanted Gideon to walk and talk with Him, but instead Gideon took the "easy" way of looking to the Ephod to hear from God. A piece of dead cloth with cold stones on it was poor substitute for the Living God.

    Now the Lord in His mercy had men follow His Holy Spirit and write down the words that His Holy Spirit spoke to them. Is that a more sure way to follow God ?

    What group of men were more evil than the ones who fought to have our dear Lord beaten and then nailed to a wooden cross until His human body was dead.

    They looked to the Book, rather than the Author of that very Book.

    Plus, they had that very Author right before their eyes and watched him raise the dead and make eyeballs out of mud for a man born without eyes. But they simply said He was Satan. WHY, because they did not want to admit they were wrong.

    john 5

    36 “I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to finish—the very works that I am doing—testify that the Father has sent me. 37 And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me.You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38 nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. 39You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

    Now that Jesus has ascended back to heaven has God sent some One to us to follow ?

    Certainly I do not have to quote the many scriptures telling us that God sent his Holy Spirit to guide us.

    BTW, the disciples walked and talked with God in the flesh ( Jesus ) for three years and were still not even born again by the experience. They still did not believe in the One God had sent. They did not really know who He was until He came back from the dead.

    The first day Jesus came to them, He breathed on them and they received His Holy Spirit. NOTICE that it was Jesus who breathed on them, so it was His Holy Spirit that He gave to them:

    John 20
    Jesus Appears to His Disciples

    19 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 20 After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.

    21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

    So God our Father sent Jesus for us to trust and follow, and Jesus sent His Holy Spirit for us to trust and follow.

    So the only work God has given us to do is for us to trust and follow The Holy Spirit of the Lord Jesus.

    Now in His great mercy, The Lord has given us a Book to read to help us recognize His Holy Spirit.

    We are NOT to follow The Book like Gideon followed the Ephod or the Pharisees followed that same Book. Yes that is idolatry. We are all guilty of that.

    We are to read the book and ponder on the words He spoke, and the acts He did, so that we will recognize His voice when He speaks to us today.

    Paper and ink can not shed any blood for our sin. Paper and ink can not speak or love us. His Holy Spirit can speak to us and act for us and love us.

    Jesus proved He loved us by shedding His very blood on the cross. Jesus proved He was able to save us by raising Himself from the dead.

    Read His Book, but then follow His Holy Spirit.

    BTW, men like Smith and Russel were not deceived by trying to follow His Holy Spirit. Smith was simply a liar and con man who claimed that an angel brought him gold plates with The book of Mormon on them. There were NO GOLD PLATES. He would not show the claimed gold plates to even one person. WHY, because there were no gold plates. He was a simple liar who fooled simple people.

    Russel was also a liar. He claimed to know Greek and claimed to translate the Greek Holy Scriptures into English for those who were fooled by him. But in a court of law, Russel could not even identify ONE Greek letter of the alphabet, let alone read any of the Holy Scriptures in Greek.

    Both men were simple liars who fooled others to gather men unto themselves. They were not fooled by trying to follow The Holy Spirit.

    What about men today. They deceive themselves just as Eve and Adam did. They find a group that they like and then follow that group and whatever that group believes. WHY, because they want to be part of that group and they have to believe the same as they do to be part of that group. Tell any of these groups that you do not believe one of their main doctrines and see if they still love you.

    No group of men, who are all evil and all lairs, will be a good substitute for The Holy Spirit of the One who shed His blood for you. He is The Way, He is The Life, and He is The Truth. He proved He loves you by dying for you while you were still His enemy.

    Lou Newton
    Last edited by Lou Newton; April 2, 2017, 01:56 PM.

  • #2
    You might say, "how can I follow His Holy Spirit, for I am blind and can not see and I am deaf and can not hear". "How will I know if it is His Holy Spirit speaking to me, or my own ideas, or Satan speaking to me". Well that is good that you are aware of your blindness and deafness, for that is the first step in The Lord giving you sight and hearing.

    The Lord Jesus gave sight to every single person who confessed they could not see and asked Him to give them sight. There was not one person that He did not give sight and hearing too that did this. Why did Jesus have these stories written down for us ? - to give us faith that He will give us sight and hearing if we confess that we are blind and deaf, that is why Jesus told us these stories.

    Those that claim they are not blind and are not deaf will remain blind and deaf, and there are many that make this claim by not confessing that they are blind and deaf. The churches are full of preachers and others like this.

    Decades ago I was in a church in Gainesville Florida. I think it was called Freedom Church. I was sitting beside my Dad and had just been in the hospital with internal bleeding and three doctors told me that I was probably going to die. The Lord miraculously healed me and my Dad came down from Ohio because he was worried about me.

    The preacher was preaching his sermon and The Lord spoke to me: He said, "For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all". - Then He said, get up and speak that loudly - I said, Lord you died for me, I have to obey anything you ask, and my heart tells me this is true, but how do I know this is you. After all He was asking me to just interrupt this man's sermon. The Lord said, "Romans 11:32". I was stunned, for I had spent thousands of hours in that Book and thought I knew every verse.

    I quickly turned to that verse and there is was in black and white: "For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all". I was even more stunned, how did I miss that verse so many times as I read that book ? But there it was, and further I knew it was true in my heart. Now I started to shake in fear, for how could I get up and speak this to everyone, and worse how could I refuse to do as my Savior asked. I asked, Lord what else do you want me to say. He said, "Do not worry about what else you are to say, I will put words in your mouth as you start to speak".

    So I said, OK Lord, but please give me the courage to do this for I am filled with fear, for who am I to speak your words; I am nothing but a very poor sinner. Suddenly I stood up and started bellowing out these words, "For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all" - I am not a large man, but I have a large voice and everyone in that large church heard me and stopped and listened. The words poured out of me for some time. I remember some were from Romans 8 and other chapters. But I did not decide to say any of those words, they flowed through my mind as I spoke them. I remember thinking this is the best sermon I have ever heard.

    People in the church started laying down with their face on the floor. The altar and the aisles were soon filled with people laying on the floor and so people got up and knelled at their seat. I do not remember one person remaining in their seat except maybe my Dad. Those people knew that God has spoken to them. But I can tell you that I do not think they thought much of me. I do not know if they knew who The Lord was speaking through. My Dad never spoke a word about this to me in the rest of our lives. I have no idea what he thought about the whole thing.

    But my point is this. I had no way of knowing, for sure, if this was the Lord speaking to me. But I did not have to know. That is the hard part, and that part is up to Him. He has to somehow convince me that it was Him and He did. My part is the easy part, just be willing for Him to make me willing to do His will.

    After all He is The creator of everything that exists, and I am nobody. I assure you it was not a difficult job for Him.

    Also I think I did know it was The Lord speaking to me. It was my fear that caused me to claim that I did not know it was Him. For if it was Him, I had to get up and speak these words.

    Gideon may have known too that it was the Lord telling him to attack the 135,000 enemy. But I would also want a lot of proof if The lord was asking me to attack 135,000 men. After all, He was only asking me to speak to a few hundred people, and I did not have to kill even one; but I was shaking in fear.

    The Lord can overcome our fears. He can also overcome our doubts, ignorance and blindness.


    Lou Newton
    Last edited by Lou Newton; March 31, 2017, 02:03 PM.

    Comment


    • #3
      I mentioned that I had been in the hospital right before the event I told about in the post above:

      I came home from work one evening to find our car was gone, the house was empty ( my wife and little boy were gone ). I had a real strong aboding that something was drastically wrong. I looked all over the house and there was no note and I had not got any phone call. I found some key items missing, like luggage. I was filled with such fear far beyond anything I had felt before.

      I made some phone calls and everyone that I called claimed they did not know anything about where my wife and child were. We lived on this place called The Oak Ranch. It was almost a square mile of land and the house was in the middle of a pecan orchard. Pecan trees are very large trees and the aisles between the trees were very wide and filled with tall grass. I had seen the hired man mow the grass with the tractor and he often would stop and fire his pistol at a rattlesnake and get off the tractor to pick it up. He was about 6 foot tall and many of these snakes were a lot longer than he was tall. The place was filled with rattlesnakes and water moccasins.

      By this time it was dark and I was so upset that I ran outside into the pecan orchard yelling at God. I was upset and angry with Him and asking why He was doing this to me. I even remember complaining that He is always giving me revelations and I have no way of knowing for sure if they are from Him, or just some crazy idea of mine. I brought up the revelation about the man who appeared to Joshua in Joshua 5. I had asked God how Joshua knew to march around Jericho and be so sure, at the risk of defeat, to do it. The Lord told me to turn to the end of chapter 5. I did so: ( notice that it does not say Joshua thought it was man, but that he saw a man )

      13 Now when Joshua was near Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing in front of him with a drawn sword in his hand. Joshua went up to him and asked, “Are you for us or for our enemies?”

      14 “Neither,” he replied, “but as commander of the army of the Lord I have now come.” Then Joshua fell face down to the ground in reverence, and asked him, “What message does my Lord have for his servant?” ( notice that this person does NOT tell Joshua to stand up for he should only worship God)

      15 The commander of the Lord’s army replied, “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy.” And Joshua did so.

      Now The Lord revealed that this was Him that appeared to Joshua and gave him the commands so that Joshua would be sure of them. I had told some people about this revelation and had been laughed at and told that was an angel that appeared to Joshua. But I knew it was the Lord. Not to mention that the scriptures tell us it was a man, and not an angel.

      So as I was running down this tall grass, filled with snakes, I was telling The Lord that I did not want any more Revelations until He proved this one to me beyond my ability to ever doubt it again. Snakes can not move fast and you do not run in tall grass because of that, you will get bit. But it was truly a miracle that I did not get bit. Also I was out there for some time.

      It was close to Christmas and I had not got one Christmas card that year. I seldom did. I went out to run and stopped by the mail box and there was this one card in it. I opened it and it was a Christmas Card from this girl who I had never got any mail from before or since. It was addressed to me and not both me and my wife. It was one of those cards with all the Names of Jesus on it. In the very center was a Name that I had never heard anyone attribute to Jesus before. I was stunned as if someone had hit me with a very large sledge hammer.

      The Name was - The Captain - I was very aware of this Name being used in Joshua 5 in the KJV:

      13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?

      14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the Lord am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant?

      15 And the captain of the Lord's host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

      I knew that the Captain of a ship back in the 1600's was the Commander in Chief of that ship. No matter if the King of England was on that ship, the Captain was in command. The reason for that was because the Captain knew that ship and his crew far better than any other man on earth. So he was the Commander in Chief. No one is above The Captain on that ship. The old English word Captain means Commander in Chief.

      I am a mathematician and knew the odds of this girl sending me this card on that day with this Name on it were astronomical. I have never once doubted again that the man who appeared to Joshua was in fact The Lord Jesus. There is only one other place where a man is told to take off his shoes for this is holy ground and that is when God appeared to Moses in the burning bush.

      I knew by reason that it was The Lord, for who else would be the commander in chief of the Lord's army. Also I knew in my heart that it was The Lord who told me to turn to that passage in the first place.

      It should be obvious to everyone who reads Joshua that The Lord appeared to Joshua to tell him to march around the city in the way he was to do so. It should be obvious that The Commander in Chief of the Lord's army is The Lord. It should be obvious that when Joshua was told to take off his shoes for this is Holy ground that it was The Lord. But back then I could not find one person who would agree with this even as I showed them these facts.

      So that is why men can not follow the Holy Scriptures, for we are all blind and can not see the obvious let alone the hidden.

      One can take almost any passage of the Holy Scriptures and will be able to find as many different interpretations of it as there are churches.

      No man can understand The Holy Scripture without The Holy Spirit revealing the meaning to him.

      So there is only one way to stay out of error, and that is to follow His Holy Spirit.

      Of course you have to follow Him and have faith that He can guide you. If you lack faith then The Holy Spirit can not guide you until you confess your lack of faith. One also has to continually confess that they are blind and can not see or hear.

      Lou Newton

      Comment


      • #4
        The post above was getting long so I will continue it here:

        So I was very distressed far beyond my ability to endure. My wife had left and taken our son with not even a note. I had no way of knowing if they had been kidnapped or even worse. I few days later I just so happened to find the car in a shopping plaza parking lot. Still not one word about either of them.

        I was a runner and took my pulse almost every morning when I first awoke. If my pulse was 37 to 39 I knew that I had not recovered from the last hard run and so had to run easy that day. If my pulse was 33 - 34 I knew I was recovered and could run hard that day. Well every day I checked my pulse it was higher and higher. It got to 120 and I was very alarmed. I could run at a good jog and my pulse would not go over 120. I also was very tired and felt like I had run all night long.

        I drove down to this clinic that took free blood pressure readings and had the nurse check my blood pressure. She told me my pulse was high and I told her my pulse was normally 33. She looked at me like I was crazy. She could not help me.

        I drove back home and went to bed early. I awoke that night feeling so bad that I had to crawl to the bathroom. I passed a lot of a very black substance. I had never passed blood before and did not know it was blood. I crawled back to bed. I awoke later feeling even worse. I was able to walk to the kitchen to get something to drink, for I was very thirsty.

        As I walked across the tile on concrete floor I suddenly passed out and fell to the floor. I remember my head bouncing off of the floor. I awoke and crawled to the phone and dialed 911. The operator asked me my name and I could not remember my name, I was embarrassed. So she asked me my address and I could not remember. She asked if I knew what town I was in or close to, but I could not remember. I remember after that I had the cordless phone the wrong way and was talking into the ear piece. I passed out again to awake when the operator told me they traced to call and was on the way.

        I did not want them to break the door down, so I crawled out to the front door and opened it and passed out on the threshold. That is the way they found me and it was about 30 degrees that night.

        When we got to the hospital they took me to a special intensive care when they found out how much blood I had already lost. The doctors came to me and told me that I was probably going to die and was there anyone they should call. I told them there was no one to call. I passed out again.

        They had given me 1500 cc ( I think) of plasma and 1000 cc of red blood cells. They said they could not give me anymore and I was bleeding as fast as they give it to me.

        Three doctors were discussing my case in the room and I was able to hear them even though I was passed out. So be careful what you say around someone who is in this condition for they may be able to hear you. One doctor said I will die very soon if they do not operate, and find where I am bleeding. The second doctor said I had has lost so much blood already that an operation will kill me in seconds. So they told the third doctor it was up to him to break the tie. He said, ahhh lets operate. Well I did not want my life or death to be decided by the whim of some doctor I did not even know.

        So I cried out to the Lord. I said, Lord I have no way of knowing what to do here. Also they did not even ask me what I wanted to do and it was my life. I could not think of any scripture for guidance and nothing came to mind. So I cried out, Lord please cause me to speak your will when they come back into the room.

        When the three doctors returned, I was surprised that I was able to speak. I said, you can not operate on me. They said, you are not of sound mind and we can do as we think right and we are going to operate on you. You have no say in this.

        I said, I am cognizant enough to know the meaning of the word lawsuit. They were livid with anger at this remark. I went on to say, you are all going to be amazed for I am going to walk out of here this very day. As these words came out of my mouth, I thought, Lou what are you saying are you crazy.

        BUT as I spoke this I felt The Holy Spirit fill my body and I felt that I was healed.

        The head nurse was enraged with my remark and told me that I was surely not going to walk out of there today. She went on to tell me that I had lost so much blood that they were surprised that I was still alive. She told me that this was the special intensive care and if I ever left here it would be to the regular intensive care and then the normal hospital before I was able to go home. She added that no one walked out of that hospital, it is against their rules, everyone goes out in a wheel chair.

        The 3 doctors abandoned me and refused to give me anymore care. So they sent me down to X ray. The doctor there came up to get me and on the way down I was preaching to him, for I had been filled with His Holy Spirit and He was flowing out of me with His words. The Xray doctor told me with irritation that he did not believe in God.

        In Xray they gave me a "milkshake" to drink to make the hole that was bleeding show up. He knew what kind of pain I had been in with all that blood in my stomach and apologized every time he moved me to get another picture. After they took one from every angle he went in to read them. He was gone for quite some time and came back out and was white in the face. He said, Mr Newton I seen with my own eyes how much blood was coming out of the tube that was in your stomach, so I know there has to be a very large hole that should be very easy for me to see. I am so sorry but somehow I missed it and it is totally my fault. I have to take you through the whole procedure again, I am so sorry.

        This time he took every picture with even greater care. Also he took them at smaller angles and took more pictures. He kept apologizing every time I had to move, but I kept telling him The Lord had healed me. He looked at me as one would look at someone who was unable to reason because of loss of blood and would die any second.

        He went into his room to read them and this time was gone for a very long time. I was beginning to wonder if he had gone to lunch, but the nurse assured me he was still in there.

        Finally he came back out looking like a person who had just seen a ghost. I will never forget his words to me that day:

        He said, Mr Newton, I found it very hard to believe but there is simply no hole in you. The only thing I could find was a place that looked like a hole were someone was bleeding but had healed days ago. He went on to say, Maybe there is a God and you certainly know Him. I told him that for him to be made aware of that was worth almost dying, and that the Lord did die for Him long ago.

        The nurse wheeled me back up to the special intensive care and back to my room. I got up and got dressed and the nurse came in and asked me what I was doing. I said, I am going home. She said, Mr Newton I have watched this whole thing and she was the one to take me down to Xray. She went on to tell me that she had watched others, who had not lost near as much blood as me leave and they were found at their home the next day dead. She told me that she was a Christian.

        I told her that the Lord had healed me and that I was so weak a few hours ago that I could not move my finger. But to make her feel better I did a handstand on the chair.

        Then I walked out of that hospital and that section was not used to anyone walking out, so they forgot the wheelchair and said nothing.

        Talk about a miracle, they did not even ask me to sign one paper. I never heard from that hospital again. They did not even send me a bill. I walked out just as the Lord had spoken through my own mouth. I was not sure of anything as I spoke, but the Lord knew absolutely what was going to take place.

        The next day I went to that same church and the young guys got together after to play football. I played and while I was the oldest on the field, I outran everyone on the field more than once. I felt like I was supercharged. Probably because I was.

        When you follow His Holy Spirit miracles will take place. They are not a rare occurrence, but normal while walking with Him.

        My point in telling you this is this: There was no way that the scriptures could even give me a hint of should I leave them operate or not. One doctor said I would die if they did not operate, the other said I would die if they did.

        My Only Hope was for the Holy Spirit to take control and cause me to speak His words. But that is no problem, He can do just that.

        Last edited by Lou Newton; March 31, 2017, 05:43 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Who or what should we follow? Good question.
          Several years ago I got sick with an abscess on my lower intestines from diverticulitis. I went in the hospital and they were struggling to approach it. It was in a very difficult location to access with a drain. They made several attempts over three days to get a drain in to drain off the infection. Meanwhile they were dosing me with gallons of antibiotics all day and night. Ruined my digestive system. So finally the radiologist was a very experienced man, but this day he was not there and a Vietnamese man was there instead. I was apprehensive until he said his name was Apollo. Immediately after he told me his name he said; "yeah, I know, the son of god". Because Apollo is the greek son of god. I knew Jesus was speaking through this man and telling me He was there and it was going to be alright. This man Apollo got the drain in first try. It was excruciatingly painful but it worked.
          Immediately afterwards the surgeon was insisting that after I healed the section of the intestine that was infected needs to be removed.

          So I resigned myself to the fact that I needed major surgery and the doctor is right and must know what he is doing. I scheduled the surgery and was a ready to go. I called Lou up and told him and he asked me if I had gotten a second opinion. I said no, and he advised me to do that.

          Upon going to the second surgeon, he warned me that the risks to do the surgery outweighed the benefits. He suggested I may die in the surgery.

          I cancelled the surgery.

          The point is, I did not find any scripture to guide me through this. I needed the guidance to survive and the only place to get it was from the Holy Spirit. I prayed about it and thought He wanted me to do it. But He spoke to me first through Lou and then through the second doctor.

          My point is that we must follow God, not His creation. Even His written creation; the bible. We can attempt to follow it, but it must be with His guidance.

          The author of the scriptures far supersedes the scriptures themselves. Just like the builder of the house knows more than the house about how it was built and how to maintain it.

          Blessings ...... Steve

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Steve Hollander View Post
            Who or what should we follow? Good question.
            Several years ago I got sick with an abscess on my lower intestines from diverticulitis. I went in the hospital and they were struggling to approach it. It was in a very difficult location to access with a drain. They made several attempts over three days to get a drain in to drain off the infection. Meanwhile they were dosing me with gallons of antibiotics all day and night. Ruined my digestive system. So finally the radiologist was a very experienced man, but this day he was not there and a Vietnamese man was there instead. I was apprehensive until he said his name was Apollo. Immediately after he told me his name he said; "yeah, I know, the son of god". Because Apollo is the greek son of god. I knew Jesus was speaking through this man and telling me He was there and it was going to be alright. This man Apollo got the drain in first try. It was excruciatingly painful but it worked.
            Immediately afterwards the surgeon was insisting that after I healed the section of the intestine that was infected needs to be removed.

            So I resigned myself to the fact that I needed major surgery and the doctor is right and must know what he is doing. I scheduled the surgery and was a ready to go. I called Lou up and told him and he asked me if I had gotten a second opinion. I said no, and he advised me to do that.

            Upon going to the second surgeon, he warned me that the risks to do the surgery outweighed the benefits. He suggested I may die in the surgery.

            I cancelled the surgery.

            The point is, I did not find any scripture to guide me through this. I needed the guidance to survive and the only place to get it was from the Holy Spirit. I prayed about it and thought He wanted me to do it. But He spoke to me first through Lou and then through the second doctor.

            My point is that we must follow God, not His creation. Even His written creation; the bible. We can attempt to follow it, but it must be with His guidance.

            The author of the scriptures far supersedes the scriptures themselves. Just like the builder of the house knows more than the house about how it was built and how to maintain it.

            Blessings ...... Steve
            Thanks for the testimony Steve. I sure remember your hospital stay several years ago.

            When I would talk to you on the phone from your bedside, or pray for you, I kept getting a foreboding about the operation that young doctor was insisting that you have. I did not like his attitude of being so anxious to do such a dangerous operation on you.

            I kept sensing that The Holy Spirit wanted me to warn you not to have that operation. BUT how could I be sure that it was The Holy Spirit and just not my not liking the attitude of that young doctor. What if I warned you and you did not have the operation and died because of that decision ? These can be very serious decisions.

            So I kept praying and said nothing. But The Holy Spirit then spoke through me the next time you called and said, "Why not get a second opinion". I felt a peace about speaking that and could see no downside to getting a second opinion.

            The older doctor you seen for that second opinion had totally different advice. He said, he sure liked to operate on people, but he would find someone else to operate on, because that operation could kill you and was very dangerous.

            That old doctor was surely right, for it has been years now and you have had no more problem in that area.

            I am sure thankful for The Holy Scriptures, it is THE BOOK. I spend time everyday in it and have for 41 years.

            But sometimes there in no advice in the Book for our situation. But His Holy Spirit is our maker and being our maker always knows what is best for us. The Book does not know us, but He is a living person and knows us better than we know ourselves. We can not have a relationship with The Book, but we can have a relationship with his Holy Spirit.

            I have found the Author of The Book to be far Superior to The Book. Nothing is above God Almighty, or His Holy Spirit, and that even includes His Book. The Book is part of His creation, but He is The Creator.

            I remember my son studying some Classics of literature in High School. There was a difference of opinion of what the author meant in certain passages. They referred to the text to try to settle the argument. But no agreement could be reached. The Book was A tale of Two Cities. Now if they could have asked Charles Dickens about it, he could have settled the argument with no problem. Certainly the author knows more about his book that any reader.

            Comment


            • #7
              Pro 11:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.
              Pro 24:6 For by wise counsel thou shalt make thy war: and in multitude of counsellors there is safety.

              I'm glad you're still with us, Steve. =) Praise the Lord our God, for His wisdom works towards our good even when we cannot call it to mind.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Baruch View Post
                Pro 11:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.
                Pro 24:6 For by wise counsel thou shalt make thy war: and in multitude of counsellors there is safety.

                I'm glad you're still with us, Steve. =) Praise the Lord our God, for His wisdom works towards our good even when we cannot call it to mind.
                Thanks for the kind words Barry. I cannot count the times the Lord spared me that I know of. And there's many times I am unaware of as well.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Baruch View Post
                  Pro 11:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.
                  Pro 24:6 For by wise counsel thou shalt make thy war: and in multitude of counsellors there is safety.

                  I'm glad you're still with us, Steve. =) Praise the Lord our God, for His wisdom works towards our good even when we cannot call it to mind.
                  Thanks for the reply Barry. Amen, when we are in a stressful situation is makes it harder to hear from His Holy Spirit. It is wise to get counsel from others who also know Him.

                  This might be a good place to address the errors that we can make while trying to follow His Holy Spirit:

                  While The Holy Spirit will never lie to us and His counsel is always the wisest, we are blind and deaf and we can make an error and mistake our own desires for His Voice, or Satan's voice for His.

                  Therein lies the key, we dare not trust in just any voice or leading, and we dare not trust in our desires. BUT we must test every spirit as John tells us to do.
                  1 John 4New International Version (NIV)

                  On Denying the Incarnation


                  4 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.


                  When I was living in Mississippi I heard this ministry over the radio called Sonshine Ministries. They used the slogan, "Jesus is the answer" and they sounded very good over the radio. So we prayed and decided to drive to Dallas Texas to see about joining them.

                  When we arrived The Lord started to reveal trouble spots right away. The man in charge ( whose name was Lou and had been an Air Force Colonel ) called a meeting with all the leaders and me and my wife. As we were sitting there this man, Lou, started to give my wife orders of how she should act and think. I interrupted immediately and told him that Dena was my wife , not his, and if he had any problem with her he should address me and I would speak to her. Neither I, nor she, liked the way he spoke to her and I corrected him. There was almost a gasp from everyone at the table when I did so. But the leader accepted the criticism and agreed to follow that in the future.

                  But I was being cautioned by The Holy Spirit that the man just accepted the correction because he coveted my wife's and my abilities. She was very proficient at using a word processor and no one there could use one. The superiority of a word processor over a type writer is like comparing a hand shovel to a back hoe. I was an engineer and found out later that they had plans for my abilities too.

                  But I also found many other warnings as we stayed there to get to know them. They had been taught that to follow The Holy Spirit they would pray and the first thing that came into their head was the Holy Spirit's answer. That of course is bunk. When I asked them how they knew that was The Holy Spirit, they said they tested the spirit like John said to do. But their testing of the spirit was nothing but another wrote prayer. They simply prayed that they wanted to test that spirit and ask it if it was the Holy Spirit, of course The father of lies will lie and say yes.

                  In my firm opinion this group had become a cult that followed their leader instead of following The Holy Spirit. Anytime their answer to prayer was different than his, they were instructed to pray again until their answer agreed with his answer. He had simply become a dictator and a tyrant.

                  They were sent back to their home to raise support money from their home church; BUT that support money was sent to the leader and not to them. He had control of everything and they were simply puppets. There is no way that I could hand over the authority of my household to another mere man. I had already given it to The Lord Jesus.

                  This man had total control over everyone, and he had total authority over all; BUT he did not have any responsibility for them. Authority and responsibility go together. The husband and father of the house has the authority over his household, BUT he also has the responsibility to provide for and protect his household.

                  We give our life to The Lord Jesus and he has total authority over our lives, BUT He also takes total responsibility to provide for and protect us. This man had taken total authority over these peoples lives, but he did not take any responsibility over providing for them or protecting them. This is the very worse of cults, for they had the terrible situation of being his slave, but he did not even feed them. Even slave masters fed their slaves and would fight to protect them.

                  But this man would take their support money that was sent from their home church, and while he would use some of it to house and feed them, he would use much of it for his own support. One couple had a baby and he did not pay the hospital bill. They were left to their own devices to pay it. How could they do that when he was using all of their time and efforts for his purposes.

                  A hail storm ruined their almost new car and they used the insurance money for the car to pay the hospital bill. They testified to me that is how The Lord provided for them. I have never had the Lord provide for me like that. I found the Lord to be a Giver not a taker.

                  Looking back this is easy to see, but as we were there it was not so easy. We had drove from Gulfport, Miss to Dallas to join them and they sounded so good over the radio. But as soon as we arrived there were warnings, so we were both in deep prayer about the situation.

                  The two of us had talked and we felt that there was danger in joining this group. But we wanted a clear answer from The Lord. I will tell about how He answered in my next post.

                  But the point of this post is to show that just any voice that comes to us may NOT be The Holy Spirit. Further if we listen to and follow Satan's voice then he will speak to us more and more often.

                  We have to lean how to discern Satan's voice and our own desires from The voice of His Holy Spirit. That may not be easy and may take some time to learn.

                  Now this is why Glen warns of following The Holy Spirit. Many that claim to do so simply become involved in gross error. BUT those who claim to follow the Holy Scriptures also become involved in gross error.

                  The key to following His Holy Spirit is to confess that we are blind and deaf and to ask The Lord to cause us to follow Him. We have to do this at every step we take, not as a one time request.

                  Now also, we have to be reading The Holy Scriptures daily and know how The Lord answered others in past times. That was one of the main warnings The Lord gave me about this group. When talking to the leaders I found that they did not have time read The Holy Scriptures for many hours every day. They were kept busy with the jobs given them by the head leader. In fact the second in command told me that ten minutes in the scriptures was enough for us that were not the head leader.

                  That was a real red flag that I never forgot. I was never going to be willing to give up my meeting place with The Lord in His Holy Scriptures to join any group.

                  Lou Newton
                  Last edited by Lou Newton; April 4, 2017, 01:24 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Here is a question for all to ponder:

                    Should we worship the words that God spoke, or should we worship the God that spoke these words ?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Who or what should we follow?

                      Lou, such stories about the relationships with the LORD, both his guidance and his healings are also understood by some as answered prayer or just the voice of the LORD coming without expectation. This kind of Holy Ghost guidance, the guidance in our situation, is what the LORD desires for every believer. Just as often such guidance is specifically aimed at doing the work of the kingdom in our situation.

                      As you point out there are the charlatans making the claim to speak for God, and there are the deluded who believe God is talking to them. You noted that some of those you followed did not have time for the Bible. Some of your stories were communicated using the support of the Bible.

                      My objection is not to the following of the Holy Ghost but to equating experiences like yours into a spiritual authority over biblical interpretation, lives of others, and the control of miracles. All this is common on the Trinity Broadcasting Network. I have seen it in small rural churches, in large coliseums, and tent revivals. Such posturing is the means to building enormous wealth.

                      The theological meanings of revelation, inspiration, and illumination remain an essential understanding if the faithful are to avoid being beguiled. A wrong understanding of biblical inspiration confuses being inspired by the Holy Ghost with the doctrine of divine revelation. When believers fail to properly distinguish between the doctrines of divine revelation, divine inspiration, and divine illumination, then confusion of the meaning of these terms allows the believer to think that illumination by the Holy Spirit is actually the inspired revelation through the Holy Spirit.

                      Theologically,
                      Divine revelation is revelation by the LORD.
                      Divine inspiration is what the Holy Ghost provided to the writers of the biblical texts in recording the divine revelation.
                      Divine illumination is what the Holy Ghost does for individual believers.
                      With the illumination comes the requirement for discernment - – discernment learned from the Bible, from the Holy Ghost, from experience, and from practice.

                      Accordingly, believers do not receive new revelation nor is their preaching or writings inspired by the Holy Ghost. Otherwise, claiming Holy Spirit inspiration claims an authority superior or equal to the Apostles and thereby the Bible. How is this different than what is claimed for the Pope? The inspired Pope is superior to the inspired Books of the Bible. The Roman Catholics state the Bible means what the Pope says it means. In Roman Catholicism doctrine the interpretation of the Bible is not the prerogative of the individual. This same rational of modern individuals claims to a superior spiritual knowledge has fostered Mormons, Jehovah Witness, Branch Davidians, The People’s Temple, etc. In fact, most of the Islamic terrorists are obeying an imam.

                      I do not discount that the Holy Ghost uses believers in supernatural or spiritual ways. I had to warn a man if he did not repent that the consequences could be fatal. The consequences were. I have some stories of visions, of hearing the voice of the LORD, "inspired" speaking, and being directed to do something that seemed senseless. At our age, the experience of listening and discerning provides all the prodding needed to follow the Holy Ghost. However, to translate such happenings into discounting the Bible as our source of final authority and guidance to become an object (Book) of idolatry, and for it to be superseded by the Holy Spirit is completely artificial.

                      To say you follow the Holy Spirit rather than the book He inspired relegates the Bible to a state of uselessness. It is not a choice. The inspired books of the Bible are the record of the revelation of divine redemption, and the Holy Ghost illuminates the message to those who believe. Both are essential for the work of Christ to become effective in us who believe.

                      My answer to the question you pose, "Who or what do I follow?" is this:
                      I follow the Lord Jesus as revealed in the Bible and made real in me through the Holy Ghost.

                      Wherever I Open My Bible –- author unknown

                      I find my Lord in the Bible
                      wherever I chance to look.
                      He is the theme of the Bible,
                      the center and heart of the book.

                      He is the Rose of Sharon.
                      He is the lily fair.
                      Wherever I open my Bible,
                      the Lord of the book is there.

                      He, at the book's beginning
                      gave to the earth its form.
                      He is the arch of shelter
                      bearing the brunt of the storm,
                      the burning bush of the desert,
                      the budding of Aaron's rod.
                      Wherever I look in the Bible,
                      I see the Son of God.

                      The ram upon Mount Miriah,
                      the ladder from earth to sky,
                      the scarlet cord in the window
                      and the serpent lifted high,
                      the smitten rock in the desert,
                      the shepherd with staff and crook,
                      the face of my Lord I discover
                      wherever I look in the book.

                      He is the seed of the woman,
                      the Savior virgin born.
                      He is the Son of David
                      with whom men rejected with scorn.
                      His garments of grace and of beauty,
                      the stately Aaron deck,
                      Last edited by glen smith; April 6, 2017, 02:46 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by glen smith View Post
                        Who or what should we follow?

                        Lou, such stories about the relationships with the LORD, both his guidance and his healings are also understood by some as answered prayer or just the voice of the LORD coming without expectation. This kind of Holy Ghost guidance, the guidance in our situation, is what the LORD desires for every believer. Just as often such guidance is specifically aimed at doing the work of the kingdom in our situation.

                        As you point out there are the charlatans making the claim to speak for God, and there are the deluded who believe God is talking to them. You noted that some of those you followed did not have time for the Bible. Some of your stories were communicated using the support of the Bible.

                        My objection is not to the following of the Holy Ghost but to equating experiences like yours into a spiritual authority over biblical interpretation, lives of others, and the control of miracles. All this is common on the Trinity Broadcasting Network. I have seen it in small rural churches, in large coliseums, and tent revivals. Such posturing is the means to building enormous wealth.

                        The theological meanings of revelation, inspiration, and illumination remain an essential understanding if the faithful are to avoid being beguiled. A wrong understanding of biblical inspiration confuses being inspired by the Holy Ghost with the doctrine of divine revelation. When believers fail to properly distinguish between the doctrines of divine revelation, divine inspiration, and divine illumination, then confusion of the meaning of these terms allows the believer to think that illumination by the Holy Spirit is actually the inspired revelation through the Holy Spirit.

                        Theologically,
                        Divine revelation is revelation by the LORD.
                        Divine inspiration is what the Holy Ghost provided to the writers of the biblical texts in recording the divine revelation.
                        Divine illumination is what the Holy Ghost does for individual believers.
                        With the illumination comes the requirement for discernment - – discernment learned from the Bible, from the Holy Ghost, from experience, and from practice.

                        Accordingly, believers do not receive new revelation nor is their preaching or writings inspired by the Holy Ghost. Otherwise, claiming Holy Spirit inspiration claims an authority superior or equal to the Apostles and thereby the Bible. How is this different than what is claimed for the Pope? The inspired Pope is superior to the inspired Books of the Bible. The Roman Catholics state the Bible means what the Pope says it means. In Roman Catholicism doctrine the interpretation of the Bible is not the prerogative of the individual. This same rational of modern individuals claims to a superior spiritual knowledge has fostered Mormons, Jehovah Witness, Branch Davidians, The People’s Temple, etc. In fact, most of the Islamic terrorists are obeying an imam.

                        I do not discount that the Holy Ghost uses believers in supernatural or spiritual ways. I had to warn a man if he did not repent that the consequences could be fatal. The consequences were. I have some stories of visions, of hearing the voice of the LORD, "inspired" speaking, and being directed to do something that seemed senseless. At our age, the experience of listening and discerning provides all the prodding needed to follow the Holy Ghost. However, to translate such happenings into discounting the Bible as our source of final authority and guidance to become an object (Book) of idolatry, and for it to be superseded by the Holy Spirit is completely artificial.

                        To say you follow the Holy Spirit rather than the book He inspired relegates the Bible to a state of uselessness. It is not a choice. The inspired books of the Bible are the record of the revelation of divine redemption, and the Holy Ghost illuminates the message to those who believe. Both are essential for the work of Christ to become effective in us who believe.

                        My answer to the question you pose, "Who or what do I follow?" is this:
                        I follow the Lord Jesus as revealed in the Bible and made real in me through the Holy Ghost.

                        Wherever I Open My Bible –- author unknown

                        I find my Lord in the Bible
                        wherever I chance to look.
                        He is the theme of the Bible,
                        the center and heart of the book.

                        He is the Rose of Sharon.
                        He is the lily fair.
                        Wherever I open my Bible,
                        the Lord of the book is there.

                        He, at the book's beginning
                        gave to the earth its form.
                        He is the arch of shelter
                        bearing the brunt of the storm,
                        the burning bush of the desert,
                        the budding of Aaron's rod.
                        Wherever I look in the Bible,
                        I see the Son of God.

                        The ram upon Mount Miriah,
                        the ladder from earth to sky,
                        the scarlet cord in the window
                        and the serpent lifted high,
                        the smitten rock in the desert,
                        the shepherd with staff and crook,
                        the face of my Lord I discover
                        wherever I look in the book.

                        He is the seed of the woman,
                        the Savior virgin born.
                        He is the Son of David
                        with whom men rejected with scorn.
                        His garments of grace and of beauty,
                        the stately Aaron deck,
                        I thank you for your reply Glen.

                        You write:
                        My objection is not to the following of the Holy Ghost but to equating experiences like yours into a spiritual authority over biblical interpretation
                        I have never spoke one word against The Bible. It is The Book and I read it every day and have stated so many times even in this post. So to imply that I am against The Book in any way I see as a straw man argument dear friend. I am NOT against The Book.

                        BUT I do not see how anyone who reads The Book can say that The Book directs us to follow The Book. Please, dear friend, post a scripture where the Book tells us to follow The Book. I have posted verses where The Book tells us to follow The Holy Spirit.

                        14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. - The Book does not state that those who follow The Book are the children of God. - Please address this verse. - quote and address this verse. Please post one verse that tells us different. Of course The Book does not contradict itself anywhere as many claim.

                        Further it is written in The Book that we have but ONE work to do:

                        John 6


                        28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

                        29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

                        I go on to show that to believe is to TRUST in Jesus.


                        I have never spoke one word against The Bible. But I have said that The Author is Superior to The Book. Do you agree that God is above everything including His Book. Certainly The Book did not create anything as God clearly did. That is not speaking against the Book, but simply elevating God who is above all.

                        Do you agree that The Book is part of His creation ?

                        The Book tells us to not worship His creation, but to worship God alone.

                        To put God above His Book is NOT speaking against The Book, but it is simply giving God His due place as The First and Last.

                        You write:
                        The theological meanings of revelation, inspiration, and illumination remain an essential understanding if the faithful are to avoid being beguiled. A wrong understanding of biblical inspiration confuses being inspired by the Holy Ghost with the doctrine of divine revelation. When believers fail to properly distinguish between the doctrines of divine revelation, divine inspiration, and divine illumination, then confusion of the meaning of these terms allows the believer to think that illumination by the Holy Spirit is actually the inspired revelation through the Holy Spirit.

                        Theologically,
                        Divine revelation is revelation by the LORD.
                        Divine inspiration is what the Holy Ghost provided to the writers of the biblical texts in recording the divine revelation.
                        Divine illumination is what the Holy Ghost does for individual believers.
                        With the illumination comes the requirement for discernment - – discernment learned from the Bible, from the Holy Ghost, from experience, and from practice.
                        I have never given the above one second of thought in 41 years dear friend. I seek to know The Lord Jesus and He is whom I seek.

                        The Lord Himself tells us:

                        25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.

                        I read The Book to learn about Jesus and what He had said and done. BUT I follow Jesus, not The Book.

                        I do not have to know the difference between these types of revelation but simply follow The Lord Jesus. I do not even need to know where He is going, the wind blows and I do not know where it comes from or where it is going. But I do recognize the wind, or His Holy Spirit, for He is The Holy Spirit of my Lord Jesus.

                        Yes, Jesus told us that the path to destruction is wide and most go that way. but that does not make the straight and narrow path of following Jesus any more difficult. Their failure does is due to the fact that they follow men or their own desires, NOT that The Holy Spirit has led them astray.

                        You write:
                        To say you follow the Holy Spirit rather than the book He inspired relegates the Bible to a state of uselessness. It is not a choice. The inspired books of the Bible are the record of the revelation of divine redemption, and the Holy Ghost illuminates the message to those who believe. Both are essential for the work of Christ to become effective in us who believe.
                        FIRST - To follow The Holy Spirit in no way makes The Book useless. To do as The Book instructs us to do, is not to make it useless.

                        SECOND - But The Book is not necessary for one to be saved. Certainly Enoch, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and many others did not have The Book but Abraham is called the father of our faith by The Lord God. I am to do as Abraham did, which is to trust God to save me.

                        If The Muslims would take over our nation and somehow destroy every Bible, I would not have to fear, for I know The Author of The Book and He will lead me. Yes, I am very thankful for The Book because it is ink on paper and I can see it with my eyes. But if God led Abraham, He can and will lead us, just as He led him.

                        So my question is this. Do you believe that if I was stranded on a strange island and had no Bible, that The Lord could still speak to me and lead me ?

                        Does God lead people today without directly using The Book ? Or are you saying that God only speaks to us through His Book ?

                        BTW, I never once said I followed the people in Dallas. We traveled there to see if they were who they said they were. We were there for only minutes before the Lord started to reveal red flags and they were not who they said they were. I have never followed any cult. Even before I was saved by His grace my wife was part of a cult, The Reorganized Church of Latter day Saints. They were not the Salt lake city Mormons. They preached about Jesus and hardly ever mentioned Joseph Smith. They sure tried to get me to join their church and even said I was called to the priesthood in their church. But I refused to join and refused to have our children baptized in that church. This was nothing but pure grace. I was being led by His Holy Spirit and did not even know there was a Holy Spirit. That whole church no longer even exists.
                        Last edited by Lou Newton; April 6, 2017, 12:36 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Lou, your examples of being without a Bible does not consider the familiarity you currently have with scripture. The situation would be completely different for anyone without a biblical background. However, I seem to recall your experience of what you interpreted as being saved but not knowing it was the Lord Jesus who saved you? My objections do not attend to your actual practice of using the Bible but in what you have said.

                          Some of our differences may be in what we are assuming “follow” means in a spiritual sense. You seem to use “follow the Holy Spirit” in much the same way some use hearing the LORD in prayer. In this sense “follow” is about any situation that might be relevant – from feeling that a particular action should be avoided to following a vision or the voice of the LORD. This idea of following the Holy Ghost has already been said to be the kind of Holy Ghost guidance, the guidance in our situation, is what the LORD desires for every believer. A straightforward biblical example of this idea of “following” is in Acts 16:6 where the Apostle Paul said, “. . . having been forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia.” The Apostle Paul found Holy Ghost guidance in his situation – don’t go east.

                          I am assuming a different idea of “follow “ because of the abusive use by the many “evangelist” or “teachers” who use such terms to support erroneous interpretations and doctrines. Their claims are such as:
                          “the Holy Spirit revealed this to me”
                          “I was shown this by the Holy Spirit”
                          “this is the teaching I received from the Holy Spirit”

                          These deceptions are not just used by those bartering with prayer cloths, answered prayers, famine relief, and wealth, but by those of a less fantastic approach. These charlatans also use “follow” in the sense of Acts 16:6.

                          Demon talk

                          I suspect you know what I now address. Let me just use the phrase “demon talk” for the other side without any further theological explanation. How can we know the difference between the guidance of the Holy Ghost and demon talk?

                          Unless demon talk is blatantly evil it might be indistinguishable from the Holy Spirit. Of course, that is how demon talk camouflages its intent. I know of demon talk advising everything from picking a previously named playing card when all the cards are face down and selected by someone else, to separating the face down cards into red and black suits, to revealing secrets, to predicting the immediate future. Demon talk can advise the listener of many things that otherwise could not be known. Just as with the Holy Spirit, the more one practices listening the more efficient becomes the communication.

                          Satan uses the methods and initially uses even the message of the Holy Spirit to gain acceptance. Demon talk does not begin by telling the listener to kill someone or themselves, but these are the final messages. From my experiences the thoughts of the sociopath follow the impressions given by demon talk. This is why the sociopath is the best deceiver in society.

                          How can we know the difference between the guidance of the Holy Ghost and demon talk?
                          1. If it conflicts with the Bible
                          2. If it is not following the Lord Jesus.
                          3. If the message has no kingdom of God purpose.
                          4. If it presents a temptation.

                          I suspect demon talk is readily available to everyone, and those without the Holy Ghost are constantly deceived by demon talk. Residing “in Christ” is our shield of protection.

                          Placing the “following of the Holy Spirit” as the primary operandi that defines faith and practice rather than the Bible allows for subjectivity and maybe demon talk deception.
                          Even if we walk in the Spirit, faith must be held to the revealed standard.
                          Last edited by glen smith; April 7, 2017, 02:13 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by glen smith View Post
                            Lou, your examples of being without a Bible does not consider the familiarity you currently have with scripture. The situation would be completely different for anyone without a biblical background. However, I seem to recall your experience of what you interpreted as being saved but not knowing it was the Lord Jesus who saved you? My objections do not attend to your actual practice of using the Bible but in what you have said.

                            Some of our differences may be in what we are assuming “follow” means in a spiritual sense. You seem to use “follow the Holy Spirit” in much the same way some use hearing the LORD in prayer. In this sense “follow” is about any situation that might be relevant – from feeling that a particular action should be avoided to following a vision or the voice of the LORD. This idea of following the Holy Ghost has already been said to be the kind of Holy Ghost guidance, the guidance in our situation, is what the LORD desires for every believer. A straightforward biblical example of this idea of “following” is in Acts 16:6 where the Apostle Paul said, “. . . having been forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia.” The Apostle Paul found Holy Ghost guidance in his situation – don’t go east.

                            I am assuming a different idea of “follow “ because of the abusive use by the many “evangelist” or “teachers” who use such terms to support erroneous interpretations and doctrines. Their claims are such as:
                            “the Holy Spirit revealed this to me”
                            “I was shown this by the Holy Spirit”
                            “this is the teaching I received from the Holy Spirit”

                            These deceptions are not just used by those bartering with prayer cloths, answered prayers, famine relief, and wealth, but by those of a less fantastic approach. These charlatans also use “follow” in the sense of Acts 16:6.

                            Demon talk

                            I suspect you know what I now address. Let me just use the phrase “demon talk” for the other side without any further theological explanation. How can we know the difference between the guidance of the Holy Ghost and demon talk?

                            Unless demon talk is blatantly evil it might be indistinguishable from the Holy Spirit. Of course, that is how demon talk camouflages its intent. I know of demon talk advising everything from picking a previously named playing card when all the cards are face down and selected by someone else, to separating the face down cards into red and black suits, to revealing secrets, to predicting the immediate future. Demon talk can advise the listener of many things that otherwise could not be known. Just as with the Holy Spirit, the more one practices listening the more efficient becomes the communication.

                            Satan uses the methods and initially uses even the message of the Holy Spirit to gain acceptance. Demon talk does not begin by telling the listener to kill someone or themselves, but these are the final messages. From my experiences the thoughts of the sociopath follow the impressions given by demon talk. This is why the sociopath is the best deceiver in society.

                            How can we know the difference between the guidance of the Holy Ghost and demon talk?
                            1. If it conflicts with the Bible
                            2. If it is not following the Lord Jesus.
                            3. If the message has no kingdom of God purpose.
                            4. If it presents a temptation.

                            I suspect demon talk is readily available to everyone, and those without the Holy Ghost are constantly deceived by demon talk. Residing “in Christ” is our shield of protection.

                            Placing the “following of the Holy Spirit” as the primary operandi that defines faith and practice rather than the Bible allows for subjectivity and maybe demon talk deception.
                            Even if we walk in the Spirit, faith must be held to the revealed standard.
                            Thanks for the kind reply Glen.

                            But would you be so kind as to quote and answer these questions that I have addressed to you. I thank you in advance for your kind reply dear friend.

                            I am just trying to better understand your position so I can pray and consider it better.

                            BUT I do not see how anyone who reads The Book can say that The Book directs us to follow The Book. Please, dear friend, post a scripture where the Book tells us to follow The Book. I have posted verses where The Book tells us to follow The Holy Spirit.

                            14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. - The Book does not state that those who follow The Book are the children of God. - Please address this verse. - quote and address this verse. Please post one verse that tells us different. Of course The Book does not contradict itself anywhere as many claim.
                            Do you agree that The Book is part of His creation ?
                            So my question is this. Do you believe that if I was stranded on a strange island and had no Bible, that The Lord could still speak to me and lead me ?

                            Does God lead people today without directly using The Book ? Or are you saying that God only speaks to us through His Book ?
                            BTW, Glen your last post brought out a lot of good points, I just want to make sure I am understanding you correctly.
                            Last edited by Lou Newton; April 8, 2017, 12:40 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by RoyDavid
                              Lou, why can you not relent? Must you continue until you have vanquished your brother? What does that have to do with the bretheren dwelling in harmony? Is there not enough division in the Body of Christ already? What has Glen said that you could possibly disagree with? It is sound, basic and fundamental. Plus, you know Glen. He has shared articles and his viewpoints many times, which have revealed a devout brother that cares. His point that a man can get carried away following the "spirit" is valid..and one that you would do well to submit to. "All the ways of a man are pure in his own eyes" is a fact of life for all of us with our feet still on the earth..including you. I have made it simple for you Lou. All you have to do is say "Amen, Thank-you Glen for helping me."
                              It is good to hear from you Roy.

                              But maybe we all need to be more humble.

                              When Barry, the Administrator of this site tried to give you a very gentle admonishment that we should not attack persons on this site, but instead make your argument on the issue instead, you told him thanks for his concern, but you did not need his advise. BTW, Barry is close to your age and should have been shown more respect.

                              This post of yours is out of order. We do not attack one another on this site. We try not to attack the messenger, but we attack the message.

                              I have sure made no attack on my dear friend and brother Glen. We are trying to state each others position, so we can understand one another better. Glen and I have done that for over 12 years and we are still friends and still brothers. We have not come to agreement on everything but we have come to learn much from one another, and we continue to do so.

                              If anyone is offended by our discussion, they do not have to read it. You are welcome to read anything posted here, and not required to read any of it.

                              BUT no one is welcome to bring personalities into the public forum. Children read these posts and their parents do not want them to read posts that attack fellow Christians.

                              The Holy Scriptures clearly tell us if a brother has offended you to go to him in PRIVATE and discuss it with him.

                              You do not even claim to be offended, but claim that someone else is offended. That is an insult to that brother. Certainly he can email me at any time and let me know if he is offended.

                              Your post, and my answer should have not appeared on our forum. But since your post had already appeared and may have been read by many, I posted this response so everyone will know the rules and hopefully follow them in the future.

                              Your friend, Lou

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