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  • The Word of God

    Let us examine what The Bible says about The Word of God:
    John 1New International Version (NIV)

    The Word Became Flesh

    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

    The Revelation 19
    The Heavenly Warrior Defeats the Beast

    11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns.He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

    Why is The Lord Jesus Named The Word of God ? It is because we express our selves by our words, and Jesus is the expression, or Revelation of God Himself. God Almighty came down from heaven and was born of a woman to become a man to reveal to mankind who He is and what His Nature is.

    I pick up my Bible and it is Titled, The Bible, which means The Book. The Book is NOT God, but it is The Holy Scriptures that God inspired man to write.

    Let us look at how Jesus spoke about The Bible:

    John 5
    39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

    Why didn't Jesus call the Scriptures, the word of God ? Can we improve upon the words of Jesus ? Can we do better than Jesus did ?

    If the Scriptures have power, then why were not the Pharisees changed by that power ? If the Pharisees diligently study the word of God, why did they not recognize The Word of God when He stood before them ?

    I ask you to pray about these questions instead of reacting to them.

    If the Scriptures are The Word of God, and The Word of God certainly has power, then try this:

    Go out and find a tombstone with the name Lazarus on it, and then read these words of Jesus to that dead body in the grave:

    John 11:43
    When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!

    The words of God have no power when you speak them and that dead body will not rise from the dead.

    Now if The Holy Spirit of The Word of God had spoken to you and told you to go to that grave and He spoke those words through your lips, that dead body would rise from the dead.

    God has the power and we can not incorporate that power at our will. God does not follow man, but we are to follow Him.

    Stand in front of a tornado and speak these words:

    Mark 4:39
    He got up, rebuked the wind and said to the waves, “Quiet! Be still!” Then the wind died down and it was completely calm.

    If you spoke those words of God nothing will happen. If God spoke those words through you, the tornado will become calm.

    When a mere man speaks the words of The Bible, they are NOT The Word of God, unless God spoke those words through his lips.

    If God speaks though any mere man, then those words are the Word of God.

    Go out and purchase a telescope with a computer control and have it point to a protostar on a dark night. A protostar is a star that has not started to give light yet by hydrogen fusion.

    Now read these words to that star:

    Genesis 1
    3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light

    Unless God spoke those words through you, nothing will take place. If God spoke those words through you, the star will start to give off light.

    Men want to control God instead of God controlling them. So they call The Bible, The Word of God, so their preaching will have more authority. BUT no man can control God. No man can cause God to speak though Him. God will speak through who and when He desires.

    Please ask The Lord about these things. Confess to Him that you are blind and can not see, and ask Him to give you sight.

    Every man who claimed he could see in the NT remained blind.

    Every man who confessed he was blind in the NT was given sight by Jesus.

    Lou Newton

  • #2
    I listened to a man who said, "I preach nothing but the Word of God", as he held up the Bible. But I also heard this same man say this; "Jesus did not come to Earth to be the Messiah," He goes on to defend Israel and claims they are not guilty of rejecting the Messiah. That of course is very serious error.

    But he claims to preach The Word of God because he then appears to not be arrogant to some, but he can manipulate the words of The Holy Scriptures and claim they mean what he claims they mean.

    The "priests" of old did this same thing. They did not claim to be God, because few would believe them, for they were mere men. BUT they claimed some part of creation was God, and then claimed they represented that god. This way they could manipulate the people that followed them.

    This man on TV does the same thing ( although I do not think he is aware of what he is doing, but is deceived) He makes the Bible, The Word of God, which is making it God, and then through building error upon error leads his followers to destruction. One can read mere words to mean many different things simply by speaking them in a different way.

    I have read many passages of The Bible that I did not understand. BUT when The Holy Spirit spoke them to me I understood their meaning. Only He can bring understanding to The Holy Scriptures, and no man can do the same.

    Muhammad did the same thing. He did not claim to be God, for very few would have believed him. But he claimed Allah was God and then claimed he was Allah's prophet, or mouthpiece. BUT that is the same as making himself God. For if God only speaks through him, then he has put himself in place of God.

    God has told us to worship only Him and we are not to worship His creation. The people of old worshiped many things that God created and they went to destruction for doing so.
    Psalm 19

    For the director of music. A psalm of David.

    1The heavens declare the glory of God;
    the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
    2 Day after day they pour forth speech;
    night after night they reveal knowledge.
    3 They have no speech, they use no words;
    no sound is heard from them.
    4 Yet their voice goes out into all the earth,
    their words to the ends of the world.
    In the heavens God has pitched a tent for the sun.
    5 It is like a bridegroom coming out of his chamber,

    like a champion rejoicing to run his course.
    6 It rises at one end of the heavens
    and makes its circuit to the other;
    nothing is deprived of its warmth.

    We see that the heavens also declare the Glory of God. And in fact the Sun is a type of Christ. BUT we are not to call the sun, or anything in the heavens, The Word of God. We are not to look to the heavens for guidance. That would be witchcraft, or astrology. Although the heavens do declare the glory of God, or He speaks through the heavens, we are not to look to the heavens for guidance.

    The Holy Scriptures are The Book inspired by God. BUT we are not to look to The Book, but we are to look to The Author of The Book.

    The Book is paper and ink and has no power. It is The Author of The Book who has the power of Life over death. The Book can not save, but The Savior written about in the Book is The One and Only Savior.

    John 5
    39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

    We see that Jesus told the Pharisees, they looked to The Book. But even though they had memorized whole books of The Bible they did not even recognize The Author of The Book when He appeared before them and raised the dead.

    Why did the Pharisees get so angry with Jesus ? Because Jesus spoke against their beliefs that they held. They claimed these beliefs came from The Holy Scriptures. But in looking to the scriptures, instead of to God, they made the scriptures their god. But ink on paper can not guide anyone to the Truth. So they were lost because they made the scriptures their god, and it can not save.

    If they had looked to God, and asked Him to guide them, when they read the Scriptures, God could have led them to The Truth.

    God inspired men to write The Bible and it is The Book that I read every day. But I have learned that I can not understand one verse of it, without His Holy Spirit guiding me to The Truth. No amount of study will bring understand, about even one verse, unless I ask The Author to give me understanding.

    I can research history, read every book about The Bible, and then spend my life reading The Holy Scriptures and still be lost. I have not memorized one book of The Bible, the Pharisees did. Yet most of them were lost and they were the very ones who insisted that Jesus be crucified.

    I believe every jot of an i ,and every cross of a T ,is from God in the original Hebrew and Greek of the Holy Scriptures. Yet that book can not save me. The Book points to The Savior and we should seek Him alone to save us.

    The Book is a meeting place where I seek The Lord Jesus. When I read it while seeking Him, He meets with me and walks with me and talks with me. It is written in that Book that The Word of God, is The Lord Jesus Christ. He alone can save.

    Lou Newton


    Comment


    • #3
      Word of God referring to the LORD Jesus
      There is 1 John 1:1 which undoubtedly refers to the Lord Jesus as the Word.

      1 John 1:1 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
      That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of Life

      I wish you could see that when believers refer to the Bible as the word of God they are not confusing this synonym or metaphor used for the Bible with the Word of God as a title for or emanation of the Lord Jesus. To speak of the Bible as the word of God is to attribute and emphasize the divine inspiration and divine authority above any works compiled by men and does not equate the Bible to be the Lord Jesus or visa versa. Anyone who makes this error would obviously be juvenile in their thinking or have diminished cognitive abilities. This is not to say there are no quacks that use the Bible as a magic wand and have some sorted view of the book having spiritual power. This is no different from those who think faith is the operative key to spiritual power where their preaching is about faith and not the Lord Jesus.

      I was in elementary school when I first remember the pastor preaching on John 1. This is when I recognized that Christians used the phrase “word of God” to refer to both the Lord Jesus and the Bible. As a juvenile I did not have the sophistication in the English language to understand how this could be, but I knew the Lord Jesus and the Bible were not the same and that the phrase had to have more than one application. It was confusing. John 1 became my favorite chapter in the Bible because of its exalted Christology. A few years latter in high school, as my knowledge of English and theology developed, any magical qualities of the Bible as a book dissipated. An appropriate understanding of the Bible’s role in the divine plan of redemption soon followed. Most helpful to my spiritual growth were the exemplary saints who used the phrase “word of the Lord” both ways – referring to Christ and to the Bible but meaning different things. Additionally, I hear some of the most respected preachers in America use the phrase both ways.

      Besides the verses you used to demonstrate that the Lord Jesus is spoken of in the Bible as the Word of God you might wish to interpret the following verses as identifying the Lord Jesus as the Word of God since for these verses several English versions capitalize the “W” in word.

      Acts 19:20 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
      20 So the Word of God grew mightily and prevailed.
      Also the AMPC, CJB, Phillips, MSG, NLV, OJB translate Word of God.

      Hebrews 4:12 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
      12 For the Word of God is living and powerful and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
      Also the AMPC, CJB, Phillips, MSG, NLV, OJB translate Word of God.

      1 Peter 1:25 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
      25 but the Word of the Lord endureth for ever.” And this is the Word which by the Gospel is preached unto you.
      Also the AMPC, CJB, NLV, TLB, MSG, OJB
      translate Word of the Lord. The AMP and NASB translate THE WORD OF THE LORD.

      1 John 2:14 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
      14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known Him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the Word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.
      Also the AMPC, CJB, NLV translate Word of God.

      Here is the complete list for the New Testament where the 21st Century King James Version (KJ21) Capitalizes the “W” in Word:

      Matthew 13: 19, 20, 21, 22, & 23; 24:35;
      Mark 2:2; 4:14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, & 33; 7:13; 16:20;
      Luke 1:2; 3:2; 5:1; 8:11. 12, 13, 15, & 21; 10:39; 11:28;
      John 1:1; 14; 2:22; 5:24; 38; 8:31, 37, 43; 10:35; 12:48; 14:24; 15:3; 17:6, 8, 14, 17;
      Acts 4:4, 29, 31, 6:2, 4 , 7; 8:4, 14, 25; 10:36, 37, 44; 11:1; 19; 24:24; 13:5, 7, 44, 46, 48, & 49; 14:25; 15:7, 35, 36, 16:6, 32; 17:11, 13; 18:11; 19:10, 20;
      Romans 9:6; 10:8, 17;
      1 Corinthians 14:36;
      2 Corinthians 2:17; 4:2; 5:19;
      Galatians 6:6;
      Ephesians 5:26; 6:17;
      Philippians 1:14; 2:16;
      Colossians 1:25;
      1 Thessalonians 1:6; 8; 4:15;
      2 Thessalonians 3:1;
      1 Timothy 4:5; 5:17;
      2 Timothy 2:9; 4:2;
      Titus 1:3, 9; 2:5;
      Hebrews 4:2, 12; 6:5; 11:3; 12:19; 13:7;
      James 1:21, 22, & 23;
      1 Peter 1:23, 25; 2:2, 8; 3:1;
      2 Peter 3:5, 7;
      1 John 1:1, 10; 2:5, 7, 14; 5:7;
      Revelation 1:2, 9; 3:8; 6:9; 19:13; 20:4;
      Last edited by glen smith; July 13, 2017, 09:09 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by glen smith View Post
        Word of God referring to the LORD Jesus
        There is 1 John 1:1 which undoubtedly refers to the Lord Jesus as the Word.

        1 John 1:1 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
        That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of Life

        I wish you could see that when believers refer to the Bible as the word of God they are not confusing this synonym or metaphor used for the Bible with the Word of God as a title for or emanation of the Lord Jesus. To speak of the Bible as the word of God is to attribute and emphasize the divine inspiration and divine authority above any works compiled by men and does not equate the Bible to be the Lord Jesus or visa versa. Anyone who makes this error would obviously be juvenile in their thinking or have diminished cognitive abilities. This is not to say there are no quacks that use the Bible as a magic wand and have some sorted view of the book having spiritual power. This is no different from those who think faith is the operative key to spiritual power where their preaching is about faith and not the Lord Jesus.

        I was in elementary school when I first remember the pastor preaching on John 1. This is when I recognized that Christians used the phrase “word of God” to refer to both the Lord Jesus and the Bible. As a juvenile I did not have the sophistication in the English language to understand how this could be, but I knew the Lord Jesus and the Bible were not the same and that the phrase had to have more than one application. It was confusing. John 1 became my favorite chapter in the Bible because of its exalted Christology. A few years latter in high school, as my knowledge of English and theology developed, any magical qualities of the Bible as a book dissipated. An appropriate understanding of the Bible’s role in the divine plan of redemption soon followed. Most helpful to my spiritual growth were the exemplary saints who used the phrase “word of the Lord” both ways – referring to Christ and to the Bible but meaning different things. Additionally, I hear some of the most respected preachers in America use the phrase both ways.

        Besides the verses you used to demonstrate that the Lord Jesus is spoken of in the Bible as the Word of God you might wish to interpret the following verses as identifying the Lord Jesus as the Word of God since for these verses several English versions capitalize the “W” in word.

        Acts 19:20 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
        20 So the Word of God grew mightily and prevailed.
        Also the AMPC, CJB, Phillips, MSG, NLV, OJB translate Word of God.

        Hebrews 4:12 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
        12 For the Word of God is living and powerful and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
        Also the AMPC, CJB, Phillips, MSG, NLV, OJB translate Word of God.

        1 Peter 1:25 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
        25 but the Word of the Lord endureth for ever.” And this is the Word which by the Gospel is preached unto you.
        Also the AMPC, CJB, NLV, TLB, MSG, OJB
        translate Word of the Lord. The AMP and NASB translate THE WORD OF THE LORD.

        1 John 2:14 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
        14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known Him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the Word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.
        Also the AMPC, CJB, NLV translate Word of God.

        Here is the complete list for the New Testament where the 21st Century King James Version (KJ21) Capitalizes the “W” in Word:

        Matthew 13: 19, 20, 21, 22, & 23; 24:35;
        Mark 2:2; 4:14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, & 33; 7:13; 16:20;
        Luke 1:2; 3:2; 5:1; 8:11. 12, 13, 15, & 21; 10:39; 11:28;
        John 1:1; 14; 2:22; 5:24; 38; 8:31, 37, 43; 10:35; 12:48; 14:24; 15:3; 17:6, 8, 14, 17;
        Acts 4:4, 29, 31, 6:2, 4 , 7; 8:4, 14, 25; 10:36, 37, 44; 11:1; 19; 24:24; 13:5, 7, 44, 46, 48, & 49; 14:25; 15:7, 35, 36, 16:6, 32; 17:11, 13; 18:11; 19:10, 20;
        Romans 9:6; 10:8, 17;
        1 Corinthians 14:36;
        2 Corinthians 2:17; 4:2; 5:19;
        Galatians 6:6;
        Ephesians 5:26; 6:17;
        Philippians 1:14; 2:16;
        Colossians 1:25;
        1 Thessalonians 1:6; 8; 4:15;
        2 Thessalonians 3:1;
        1 Timothy 4:5; 5:17;
        2 Timothy 2:9; 4:2;
        Titus 1:3, 9; 2:5;
        Hebrews 4:2, 12; 6:5; 11:3; 12:19; 13:7;
        James 1:21, 22, & 23;
        1 Peter 1:23, 25; 2:2, 8; 3:1;
        2 Peter 3:5, 7;
        1 John 1:1, 10; 2:5, 7, 14; 5:7;
        Revelation 1:2, 9; 3:8; 6:9; 19:13; 20:4;
        Hi Glen,

        Of course many do not think The Bible is God, because they call it The Word of God. But many others do imply that the Holy Scriptures do have power in themselves. Incorrect terminologies lead to incorrect beliefs and behavior in many cases. Jesus called it The Holy Scriptures, how can we do better than His example ?

        I am of course aware of these passages. BUT they do NOT refer to a mere man speaking them as he sees fit with his voice infliction. These words have no power in themselves. Sounds have no power to give life etc.

        These passages are referring to The Word of God that comes from The Holy Spirit of God, NOT when some mere man speaks them of his own accord. When The Holy Spirit speaks through a man, or to a man, that is The Word of God.

        Certainly no mere man can speak these words written in the Holy Scriptures and cause any miracle at his own will. I would think you agree with this.

        Also I hear what you are saying about knowing the difference between Jesus and The Bible.

        But here are several things to consider:

        Would you call The Bible, Jesus. - Jesus is The Word of God. I think Jesus is deserving of His on unique Name, don't you ?

        Would you call The Bible , our Savior. Or would you call the Bible, Emanuel ( God with us )

        If the Holy Spirit speaks through the lips of a mere man, that is The Word of God.

        But when a mere man claims to be speaking The Word of God, when he is simply reading the words of The Bible of his own accord, that is NOT The Word of God.

        Proof of this is the fact that man men read the words written in The Holy Scriptures, and there is no result. But The Word of God, when spoken by God will never return void.

        If The Holy Spirit was really speaking through most of our church leaders, then there would be a result that men would be led to Christ. But instead the church of our nation is in fallen state.

        Comment


        • #5
          I have attended too many churches to count in Ohio, Pa, Illinois, Mississippi, and Florida. But I have also corresponded with many hundreds, and maybe even thousands, of professing Christians from most of the states of the Union. One thing I have observed in these 41 years is that many people look to The Bible for guidance, instead of looking to The Holy Spirit of The Author.

          I have seen many quote a verse and claim that they should follow that verse. BUT the Bible itself tells us that there is time for everything:
          Ecclesiastes 3 New International Version (NIV)

          A Time for Everything

          3 There is a time for everything,
          and a season for every activity under the heavens:

          2 a time to be born and a time to die,
          a time to plant and a time to uproot,
          3 a time to kill and a time to heal,
          a time to tear down and a time to build,
          4 a time to weep and a time to laugh,
          a time to mourn and a time to dance,
          5 a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
          a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing,
          6 a time to search and a time to give up,
          a time to keep and a time to throw away,
          7 a time to tear and a time to mend,
          a time to be silent and a time to speak,
          8 a time to love and a time to hate,
          a time for war and a time for peace.

          So no man can know if he should kill or heal in any circumstance.

          No man knows what to tell a discouraged friend. No man knows what will cause a certain man to repent and turn to Jesus. ONLY The Holy Spirit knows these things. Of course if we read the Holy Scriptures daily, then The Holy Spirit can speak to us more surely.

          I have even had many tell me that guidance from the Holy Spirit can not be depended on. They will tell me how they " followed" The Holy Spirit and went wrong. Of course they were not following The Holy Spirit, but only assumed they were doing so. The Holy Spirit was not wrong, they were wrong. These people claimed that The Bible was our only sure guide. This is very serious error.

          Jesus sent His Holy Spirit to us for a reason. We need His Holy Spirit to be saved. No man can be saved without being born again by the Holy Spirit entering into him.

          Certainly The Creator is far above His creation. The Bible is part of His creation.

          Comment


          • #6
            Glen wrote:

            Acts 19:20 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
            20 So the Word of God grew mightily and prevailed.
            Also the AMPC, CJB, Phillips, MSG, NLV, OJB translate Word of God.

            Hebrews 4:12 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
            12 For the Word of God is living and powerful and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
            Also the AMPC, CJB, Phillips, MSG, NLV, OJB translate Word of God.

            'NOTE from Lou - certainly no one would claim that The Bible can discern the thoughts and intentions of anyone's heart. But The Holy Spirit of The Lord Jesus ( The Word of God) can do so.

            1 Peter 1:25 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
            25 but the Word of the Lord endureth for ever.” And this is the Word which by the Gospel is preached unto you.
            Also the AMPC, CJB, NLV, TLB, MSG, OJB
            translate Word of the Lord. The AMP and NASB translate THE WORD OF THE LORD.

            1 John 2:14 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
            14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known Him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the Word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.
            Also the AMPC, CJB, NLV translate Word of God.

            NOTE form Lou: The Holy Spirit of Jesus ( The Word of God) certainly does abide in those who are born again.

            Here is the complete list for the New Testament where the 21st Century King James Version (KJ21) Capitalizes the “W” in Word:

            Matthew 13: 19, 20, 21, 22, & 23; 24:35;
            Mark 2:2; 4:14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, & 33; 7:13; 16:20;
            Luke 1:2; 3:2; 5:1; 8:11. 12, 13, 15, & 21; 10:39; 11:28;
            John 1:1; 14; 2:22; 5:24; 38; 8:31, 37, 43; 10:35; 12:48; 14:24; 15:3; 17:6, 8, 14, 17;
            Acts 4:4, 29, 31, 6:2, 4 , 7; 8:4, 14, 25; 10:36, 37, 44; 11:1; 19; 24:24; 13:5, 7, 44, 46, 48, & 49; 14:25; 15:7, 35, 36, 16:6, 32; 17:11, 13; 18:11; 19:10, 20;
            Romans 9:6; 10:8, 17;
            1 Corinthians 14:36;
            2 Corinthians 2:17; 4:2; 5:19;
            Galatians 6:6;
            Ephesians 5:26; 6:17;
            Philippians 1:14; 2:16;
            Colossians 1:25;
            1 Thessalonians 1:6; 8; 4:15;
            2 Thessalonians 3:1;
            1 Timothy 4:5; 5:17;
            2 Timothy 2:9; 4:2;
            Titus 1:3, 9; 2:5;
            Hebrews 4:2, 12; 6:5; 11:3; 12:19; 13:7;
            James 1:21, 22, & 23;
            1 Peter 1:23, 25; 2:2, 8; 3:1;
            2 Peter 3:5, 7;
            1 John 1:1, 10; 2:5, 7, 14; 5:7;
            Revelation 1:2, 9; 3:8; 6:9; 19:13; 20:4;
            These passages give strong evidence to the case I am making. The Bible certainly is NOT being referenced to here, for it did not exist at the time these letters were written. They are all speaking of The Word of God that The Holy Spirit of The Lord Jesus speaks to those He is calling to follow Him.

            When these letters were gathered and put into a book, it was titled ( by inspiration from God) The Bible, or The Book, NOT The Word of God.

            I got on my knees tonight before bed and confessed to The Lord that I was certainly blind and not able to see. I asked Him to show me my error if I was wrong in this. I awoke at 3 AM dreaming these thoughts that I posted here.
            Last edited by Lou Newton; July 14, 2017, 03:33 AM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Lou Newton View Post

              These passages are referring to The Word of God that comes from The Holy Spirit of God, NOT when some mere man speaks them of his own accord. When The Holy Spirit speaks through a man, or to a man, that is The Word of God.
              To my understanding, word in these verses,
              Acts 19:20
              Hebrews 4:12
              1 Peter 1:25
              1 John 2:1,
              refer not to the spoken word but refer to the Lord Jesus.

              I do not doubt that in your circle of experience there exists a lot of confusion and miss use.
              In their short history these people have fed upon their own inbred thoughts while rejecting a better counsel.

              I thought you might be encouraged by when the KJ21 capitalizes the "w" in word. From my perspective the translators have determined that capitalizing the "w" in word is because it is a reference to the Lord Jesus.
              Last edited by glen smith; July 14, 2017, 03:45 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by glen smith View Post

                To my understanding, word in these verses,
                Acts 19:20
                Hebrews 4:12
                1 Peter 1:25
                1 John 2:1,
                refer not to the spoken word but refer to the Lord Jesus.

                I do not doubt that in your circle of experience there exists a lot of confusion and miss use.
                In their short history these people have fed upon their own inbred thoughts while rejecting a better counsel.

                I thought you might be encouraged by when the KJ21 capitalizes the "w" in word. From my perspective the translators have determined that capitalizing the "w" in word is because it is a reference to the Lord Jesus.
                Hi Glen, I agree that those verses are speaking of The Lord Jesus. I also agree that the , in The Holy Scriptures, Word of God always refers to The Lord Jesus.

                BTW, my circle of experience in churches is very broad. While I was first exposed to those who called themselves "Charismatic", many of those people knew The Lord and were very pious people. What the movement became is something else. I have also seen people fall on the floor and bark like dogs years later and it was very sorrowful.

                I have been in Episcopal, Roman Catholic, Methodist, Church of Christ, Quaker, Reorganized Later Day Saints, Lutheran, Pentecostal, Holiness, and too many more to name. The place I felt the most hostility toward me was, by far, The RC church.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I have a concern. Maybe you can address it, Lou.

                  If we don't hold the scriptures as our authority how can we know we're hearing from the Holy Spirit?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Baruch View Post
                    I have a concern. Maybe you can address it, Lou.

                    If we don't hold the scriptures as our authority how can we know we're hearing from the Holy Spirit?
                    That is a very good question Barry, and I am glad you asked it.

                    A person can use the Holy Scriptures as his guide and still be wrong. You can take almost any verse and find many different interpretations of it. For instance; look at the different opinions of water baptism, eating pork, how to observe the Sabbath etc.

                    The Author is far superior to His creation. He created the universe and raised the dead, the Scriptures can do neither. Certainly the Holy Scriptures did not shed any blood for us, The Lord Jesus did. We are blind and deaf and even worse sinful. BUT if we trust in Him, He is able to make us hear. The Lord did this for the very men who wrote the Scriptures. David writes, "he makes me lie down beside still water". David lying down beside still water did not depend on David finding still water, or being willing to lie down beside it. Paul writes that we do NOT have to be willing to do the will of God ( we are sinners who want our own way) BUT we do have to be willing for The Lord to make us willing to do His will.

                    I have often seen learned men argue over what the author of some classic meant in his writing. These arguments could be settled if that author was still alive. The Author of The Bible is still alive.

                    The Bible is The Book and every dot of an i, and every cross of a T is from God Almighty. It is the greatest book ever written, but it is still a Book, and not God, or The Lord Jesus, who is The One and Only Word of God. No one or nothing else deserves to have His Title. He alone is Worthy of it.

                    If our salvation depended on us in any way, we would all be lost forever. Jesus is The Savior, we are the saved. We only need to give our life to Him and then be willing for Him to save us His way.

                    Jesus proved He is willing to save us by dying on the cross.

                    Jesus proved He is able to save us by raising Himself from the dead.

                    There is this other important point:

                    I have little difficulty hearing His voice when I am not involved, or have no desire in the issue. But when I am involved, I have trouble discerning His voice from others. I will simply ask Him to confirm what He told me and He often will use The Holy Scriptures to confirm it.

                    BUT His voice will never disagree with The Holy Scriptures; after all He is The Author of them.

                    If I look to The Book, I am following part of His creation and it certainly has less authority than The Author who wrote it. The Book can not act, speak, guide, or correct. It would all depend on my interpretation of the Book. It would depend on me, for The Book can not correct my wrong actions. Proof of that is look at the churches that claim to follow The Book. They disagree on many issues, even how to be saved.

                    There is not one place in The Book where we are told to trust in The Book.

                    It is written many places in The Book to trust in God.

                    Abraham was the father of our faith. Or he was an example of a Christian. He did not have The Book. But The Lord did call him from Ur and told him to leave everything and travel to Salem, the City of The Lord. There Abraham walked and talked with God.

                    We are to walk and talk with God like Abraham did. The Lord is not looking for people that will follow His laws ( for no man can) , He is looking for people who want to be with Him and then trust Him to save them. If we follow The Lord Jesus, He will never lead us astray. This is why we all need to come to know Him. Jesus says, "my sheep will know my voice and follow Me". Notice Jesus did not say, my sheep will read my Book and follow it.

                    Those that can not recognize The Lord can not follow Him. The Pharisees did not recognize the very God they claimed to worship even though they diligently studied the Scriptures. BUT a poor blind man born without eyes, fell at His feet and worshiped The Lord Jesus. Obviously the blind man could not read and the poor were not rich enough to possess a Book. BUT we today can read, and we all can possess a Bible, so we will be held accountable if we do not read it daily.

                    In fact no one can remove you from His hand, if you have given your life to Him. He can be trusted to be willing and able to save you and cause you to follow Him.

                    Jude Doxology

                    24 To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— 25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

                    Thanks again Barry for asking this question. If you have any more, please ask them.
                    Last edited by Lou Newton; July 15, 2017, 11:05 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Baruch View Post
                      I have a concern. Maybe you can address it, Lou.

                      If we don't hold the scriptures as our authority how can we know we're hearing from the Holy Spirit?
                      I am surprised you are not well versed in Lou’s answer since he has said these same things during my short time on the forum – maybe several times. In our correspondence he has made these same points time and again. Baruch, your post asked Lou to address the issue you raised, therefore, I am not addressing this issue – just the thought that how could you be unaware of his position? Was your question to provide an opportunity for Lou to post these ideas again?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I'm sorry, Lou. Your long answer didn't appease my concern. I was hoping for something more succinct, and I thought my question pointed directly to the answer. Scripture is our common authority.

                        Spirits whisper to men all the time. They give experiences. They manifest wonders. Many are deceived by them. How do we know when they are deceived?

                        Because we know what the Book says, or what God said in His book if you prefer that. By reading the Book we get to know its Author personally, and more intimately over time. The newborn in Christ needs milk, and then meat, to grow to maturity. I would not want to go to a church where the preacher based his messages on anything but what's in the Book, because it's all true, and it's all about Christ.

                        Everyone is not the same. Abraham's walk does not automatically project our walk. This is a logical fallacy. Neither do the apostles' walks, or your walk. We are given diverse gifts, and measures of faith and light.

                        The one thing that we all have that agrees with the Holy Spirit is the Scriptures.

                        The apostle Paul spoke the word to the Bereans, and I expect he demonstrated power. Did they simply say okay, it sounds good to my reason? It agrees with my spirit? You have power, it must be God? No. They received the word eagerly and searched the Scriptures to see if the things were so; and God commended them for their diligence. The things Paul said were surely of the Holy Spirit, yet they trusted the Book for its intended purpose, as a witness of the truth.

                        I get what you're saying. We're not to idolize the Book. It is not a tome of magical incantations at our fingertips: we're not to consume it for unholy desires. I just found your post more than a bit confusing as it seemed to wander from that main thread, and I hoped we could condense and order it.

                        People who don't know the Bible are misled every day. I think this is far more common.

                        For those who do stay immersed in the Scriptures, we need to seek balance (aka the whole counsel of God) and not tend towards any one of worldliness, unbelief, or legalism.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Baruch View Post
                          I'm sorry, Lou. Your long answer didn't appease my concern. I was hoping for something more succinct, and I thought my question pointed directly to the answer. Scripture is our common authority.

                          Spirits whisper to men all the time. They give experiences. They manifest wonders. Many are deceived by them. How do we know when they are deceived?

                          Because we know what the Book says, or what God said in His book if you prefer that. By reading the Book we get to know its Author personally, and more intimately over time. The newborn in Christ needs milk, and then meat, to grow to maturity. I would not want to go to a church where the preacher based his messages on anything but what's in the Book, because it's all true, and it's all about Christ.

                          Everyone is not the same. Abraham's walk does not automatically project our walk. This is a logical fallacy. Neither do the apostles' walks, or your walk. We are given diverse gifts, and measures of faith and light.

                          The one thing that we all have that agrees with the Holy Spirit is the Scriptures.

                          The apostle Paul spoke the word to the Bereans, and I expect he demonstrated power. Did they simply say okay, it sounds good to my reason? It agrees with my spirit? You have power, it must be God? No. They received the word eagerly and searched the Scriptures to see if the things were so; and God commended them for their diligence. The things Paul said were surely of the Holy Spirit, yet they trusted the Book for its intended purpose, as a witness of the truth.

                          I get what you're saying. We're not to idolize the Book. It is not a tome of magical incantations at our fingertips: we're not to consume it for unholy desires. I just found your post more than a bit confusing as it seemed to wander from that main thread, and I hoped we could condense and order it.

                          People who don't know the Bible are misled every day. I think this is far more common.

                          For those who do stay immersed in the Scriptures, we need to seek balance (aka the whole counsel of God) and not tend towards any one of worldliness, unbelief, or legalism.
                          Hi Barry,

                          1st of all, let me say I did not write this post to direct it toward any member of our group. Redsoxmaloney asked me to write an article about this subject and post it on facebook, and this was it.

                          2nd, I do not take away any authority of The Holy Scriptures ( which I thought I made clear from the start ); I just state that the Author is above the Book and He is the One we worship.

                          I used Abraham as an example, but he was not an isolated case. Noah did not get instructions to build the ark from The Book ( he did not have a copy) But he was instructed by The Holy Spirit; and on that basis labored for 120 years while being mocked by all who were not involved in the building of the ark. The same could be said about every man in the OT. Following spirits is a way to destruction. But following the one and only Holy Spirit is a way to salvation. For God is trustworthy.

                          If following the Holy Spirit is not a trustworthy thing to do, than the Bible would not be trustworthy, for it was written by men being carried along by The Holy Spirit. If the source is not reliable, then the product is also not reliable. But the Book is reliable, so the source is also reliable.

                          2 Peter 1

                          19 We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable,and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

                          Following The Holy Spirit is a trustworthy way, IF we are trusting in Him being able to guide us and not our ability to follow Him.

                          If I have offended anyone I am truly sorry and ask their forgiveness.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by glen smith View Post
                            Word of God referring to the LORD Jesus
                            There is 1 John 1:1 which undoubtedly refers to the Lord Jesus as the Word.

                            1 John 1:1 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
                            That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of Life

                            I wish you could see that when believers refer to the Bible as the word of God they are not confusing this synonym or metaphor used for the Bible with the Word of God as a title for or emanation of the Lord Jesus. To speak of the Bible as the word of God is to attribute and emphasize the divine inspiration and divine authority above any works compiled by men and does not equate the Bible to be the Lord Jesus or visa versa. Anyone who makes this error would obviously be juvenile in their thinking or have diminished cognitive abilities. This is not to say there are no quacks that use the Bible as a magic wand and have some sorted view of the book having spiritual power. This is no different from those who think faith is the operative key to spiritual power where their preaching is about faith and not the Lord Jesus.

                            I was in elementary school when I first remember the pastor preaching on John 1. This is when I recognized that Christians used the phrase “word of God” to refer to both the Lord Jesus and the Bible. As a juvenile I did not have the sophistication in the English language to understand how this could be, but I knew the Lord Jesus and the Bible were not the same and that the phrase had to have more than one application. It was confusing. John 1 became my favorite chapter in the Bible because of its exalted Christology. A few years latter in high school, as my knowledge of English and theology developed, any magical qualities of the Bible as a book dissipated. An appropriate understanding of the Bible’s role in the divine plan of redemption soon followed. Most helpful to my spiritual growth were the exemplary saints who used the phrase “word of the Lord” both ways – referring to Christ and to the Bible but meaning different things. Additionally, I hear some of the most respected preachers in America use the phrase both ways.

                            Besides the verses you used to demonstrate that the Lord Jesus is spoken of in the Bible as the Word of God you might wish to interpret the following verses as identifying the Lord Jesus as the Word of God since for these verses several English versions capitalize the “W” in word.

                            Acts 19:20 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
                            20 So the Word of God grew mightily and prevailed.
                            Also the AMPC, CJB, Phillips, MSG, NLV, OJB translate Word of God.

                            Hebrews 4:12 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
                            12 For the Word of God is living and powerful and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
                            Also the AMPC, CJB, Phillips, MSG, NLV, OJB translate Word of God.

                            1 Peter 1:25 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
                            25 but the Word of the Lord endureth for ever.” And this is the Word which by the Gospel is preached unto you.
                            Also the AMPC, CJB, NLV, TLB, MSG, OJB
                            translate Word of the Lord. The AMP and NASB translate THE WORD OF THE LORD.

                            1 John 2:14 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
                            14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known Him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the Word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.
                            Also the AMPC, CJB, NLV translate Word of God.

                            Here is the complete list for the New Testament where the 21st Century King James Version (KJ21) Capitalizes the “W” in Word:

                            Matthew 13: 19, 20, 21, 22, & 23; 24:35;
                            Mark 2:2; 4:14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, & 33; 7:13; 16:20;
                            Luke 1:2; 3:2; 5:1; 8:11. 12, 13, 15, & 21; 10:39; 11:28;
                            John 1:1; 14; 2:22; 5:24; 38; 8:31, 37, 43; 10:35; 12:48; 14:24; 15:3; 17:6, 8, 14, 17;
                            Acts 4:4, 29, 31, 6:2, 4 , 7; 8:4, 14, 25; 10:36, 37, 44; 11:1; 19; 24:24; 13:5, 7, 44, 46, 48, & 49; 14:25; 15:7, 35, 36, 16:6, 32; 17:11, 13; 18:11; 19:10, 20;
                            Romans 9:6; 10:8, 17;
                            1 Corinthians 14:36;
                            2 Corinthians 2:17; 4:2; 5:19;
                            Galatians 6:6;
                            Ephesians 5:26; 6:17;
                            Philippians 1:14; 2:16;
                            Colossians 1:25;
                            1 Thessalonians 1:6; 8; 4:15;
                            2 Thessalonians 3:1;
                            1 Timothy 4:5; 5:17;
                            2 Timothy 2:9; 4:2;
                            Titus 1:3, 9; 2:5;
                            Hebrews 4:2, 12; 6:5; 11:3; 12:19; 13:7;
                            James 1:21, 22, & 23;
                            1 Peter 1:23, 25; 2:2, 8; 3:1;
                            2 Peter 3:5, 7;
                            1 John 1:1, 10; 2:5, 7, 14; 5:7;
                            Revelation 1:2, 9; 3:8; 6:9; 19:13; 20:4;
                            How are you Glenn! I hope all is well. We need to be very careful with any argument that starts with, "well, I know it's different," or "well, I know you asked for something else," because that's when we get into much trouble. Jesus calls the bible the scriptures, and calls himself the word of God. Can we get into trouble by That? Shouldn't that be well enough for us? Well, I know Lucifer isn't almighty, but he's pretty big, so I'll worship him, that's were Allah, and many others come from. Words and word order are mathematical formulas when translated from the original Hebrew and Greek. So just like you can't move one without changing it, calling the word of God anything but Christ is an error.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Lou Newton View Post

                              Hi Barry,

                              1st of all, let me say I did not write this post to direct it toward any member of our group. Redsoxmaloney asked me to write an article about this subject and post it on facebook, and this was it.

                              2nd, I do not take away any authority of The Holy Scriptures ( which I thought I made clear from the start ); I just state that the Author is above the Book and He is the One we worship.

                              I used Abraham as an example, but he was not an isolated case. Noah did not get instructions to build the ark from The Book ( he did not have a copy) But he was instructed by The Holy Spirit; and on that basis labored for 120 years while being mocked by all who were not involved in the building of the ark. The same could be said about every man in the OT. Following spirits is a way to destruction. But following the one and only Holy Spirit is a way to salvation. For God is trustworthy.

                              If following the Holy Spirit is not a trustworthy thing to do, than the Bible would not be trustworthy, for it was written by men being carried along by The Holy Spirit. If the source is not reliable, then the product is also not reliable. But the Book is reliable, so the source is also reliable.

                              2 Peter 1

                              19 We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable,and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

                              Following The Holy Spirit is a trustworthy way, IF we are trusting in Him being able to guide us and not our ability to follow Him.

                              If I have offended anyone I am truly sorry and ask their forgiveness.
                              There is nothing for me to forgive, Lou. You know I love you, brother. We are frail vessels. We wrestle with our poor ability to give expression to our own thoughts, how much more the truth. We wrestle with the Scriptures because they are of great importance and value to us, and many of the things in it are hard to comprehend. It is a great gift and blessing to us. If you'll bear with me a little longer...

                              You are right, if one does not follow Christ and worship God in spirit and in truth, the Book avails nothing except perhaps some temporal wisdom. We can easily look around and see many walking in darkness, wrongfully using the Book: cults, pundits, social engineers, the merchants and kings of the earth, enemies of God and Christ. Scripture is clear that if any do not follow Christ, they are not His. Those not born of the Spirit cannot follow Him: they eventually depart from Him. It is just a fact of observation, which can be measured by comparing it to the written word, not as a dead letter but the living Spirit. Christ's are not born of blood, or the will of our flesh, or the will of man: but of God. We are His workmanship. The Book is also His workmanship, through men.

                              I still contend that we cannot presume to walk as others have walked. It is a composition/division logical fallacy: assuming that what applies to one part applies to all. And I think Scripture does not encourage that conclusion. I'm not a Moses or a David, I daresay I'm not worthy to walk in any of their shoes or don their mantles. I am what God makes of me.

                              Here are my general observations about the times, which may be accurate or not. I always invite comment.
                              - In the beginning, God spoke and created all that there is. John 1 tells us the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
                              - In the OT "the word of YHWH" is a visitation. This was a generally understood idiom of God manifesting as a vision or audible; sometimes a man or sign or His angel, though these were not called the word because they had more naturally appropriate descriptors. It also referred to the message of the prophets. During this time God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets (Act 3:21).
                              - The law came through Moses, in part, to make known the distance between God and man, and the vast separation that sin had made. God's law describes God in words and iconography. Man cannot attain to it, only God can. If man could, he would be equal to God.
                              - Grace came by Jesus Christ, the express image of God, who came and dwelt among us. John 1 is very clear, He is that Word.
                              - God poured out His Spirit upon man in the first century to lead men into all truth, and to confirm the message of the Gospel to the ends of the earth (book of Acts). There are those that say that goal had been accomplished, and for that reason the proliferation of signs and wonders have ceased.

                              It does seem evident to me that God is still active in miraculous ways, but now that the Scriptures have been fulfilled:

                              Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

                              So we're to follow Christ, whom, by the will of God and the regeneration of the Spirit, we are made able to receive by the preaching of the Gospel. We are made a new creature in Christ, and given a share in His inheritance. The Scriptures nourish us and teach us this and many other great things, not without the Spirit but with Him. We are in a branch on the vine, Jesus Christ is the true vine.

                              In reading the Scriptures you have gathered that there are linkages, interrelationships, equivalences, distinctions, and indeed a marvelous symphony between the Word, the mouth of the prophets, the Scriptures, the Christ, the Spirit. It bears deep contemplation.

                              One has no assurance in simply following a spirit and trusting it is the Holy Spirit. (I know this is not what you meant. I think it should be clarified and emphasized, though.)

                              To anyone who is serious about finding God and once found holding onto Him, my advice would be to seek Him with all diligence, because it is His desire for us. Fill your soul with the words of His book, study them, meditate on them, look for His face in them, the unseen face of the eternal, living Spirit. Look for the evidences of Him among His people; note where you think He is, and where He obviously isn't. The great I AM: He is. Seek while He can be found.
                              Last edited by Baruch; July 16, 2017, 04:58 PM. Reason: moving/adding/subtracting some words

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