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  • Why do Christians suffer ?

    "Let this encourage those of you who belong to Christ: the storm

    may be tempestuous, but it is only temporary. The clouds that

    are temporarily rolling over your head will pass, and then you will

    have fair weather, an eternal sunshine of glory. Can you not watch

    with Christ for one hour?"


    -William Gurnall
    So many "preachers" claim that Christians should not suffer, and if they do, it is because of some sin they have committed. But this is NOT what is taught by The Holy Scriptures:

    Certainly Job is revealed as a man who honored God and was a man who suffered greatly. We all know of his great sufferings.

    6 One day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them. 7 The Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”

    Satan answered the Lord, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.”
    Many claim that Satan was allowed in heaven to present himself before The Lord; but Satan had been thrown out of heaven for rebelling against The Lord. ( no sin is allowed in heaven) So Satan could not go into heaven. We know that Satan had already been thrown out because he states, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.”

    This meeting took place on the earth, not in heaven. God is omnipresent, He is on the throne in heaven, but also was on the earth and resided in the City of God, Salem. He called Himself , Melchizedek ( The King of Righteousness) and was The King of Salem (Peace). This is why Jerusalem is called the City of The Great King.

    Notice that God is the one who brings Job to Satan's attention:

    8 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job?There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.
    Now if God says Job is blameless, than Job was blameless. But all men are lairs and fall short of the glory of God. There is one, and only one, way for any man to be blameless. That is to trust in God to save him and not trust in any of his works to save himself.

    9 “Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. 10 “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.”

    12 The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.”
    Many claim that Satan can not touch any of your possessions if you trust in God. But here we are told that Job trusts in God and we see that God told Satan, "everything he has is in your power".

    Then Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.

    13 One day when Job’s sons and daughters were feasting and drinking wine at the oldest brother’s house, 14 a messenger came to Job and said, “The oxen were plowing and the donkeys were grazing nearby, 15 and the Sabeans attacked and made off with them. They put the servants to the sword, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!”

    16 While he was still speaking, another messenger came and said, “The fire of God fell from the heavens and burned up the sheep and the servants, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!”

    17 While he was still speaking, another messenger came and said, “The Chaldeans formed three raiding parties and swept down on your camels and made off with them. They put the servants to the sword, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!”

    18 While he was still speaking, yet another messenger came and said, “Your sons and daughters were feasting and drinking wine at the oldest brother’s house, 19 when suddenly a mighty wind swept in from the desert and struck the four corners of the house. It collapsed on them and they are dead, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!”

    20 At this, Job got up and tore his robe and shaved his head. Then he fell to the ground in worship 21 and said:

    “Naked I came from my mother’s womb,
    and naked I will depart.
    The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away;
    may the name of the Lord be praised.”

    22 In all this, Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing.
    Job 2

    2 On another day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them to present himself before him.2 And the Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”

    Satan answered the Lord, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.”

    3 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason.

    4 “Skin for skin!” Satan replied. “A man will give all he has for his own life. 5 But now stretch out your hand and strike his flesh and bones, and he will surely curse you to your face.”

    6 The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, he is in your hands; but you must spare his life.”

    7So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord and afflicted Job with painful sores from the soles of his feet to the crown of his head. 8 Then Job took a piece of broken pottery and scraped himself with it as he sat among the ashes.

    9 His wife said to him, “Are you still maintaining your integrity? Curse God and die!”

    10 He replied, “You are talking like a foolish woman. Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?”

    In all this, Job did not sin in what he said.
    Many claim that Satan can not touch you if you trust in God. But here we see that Job trusted in God, BUT God told Satan, "he is in your hands".

    So we see that God had put everything that Job had in Satan's hands, and also put Job in Satan's hands.

    So we see that God did not allow Satan to bring suffering to Job because he had done something wrong. That was NOT the reason God allowed Job to suffer. For God said, And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason.

    So we see that Job trusted in God to save him and was blameless before God. Job had done nothing to cause this suffering. We also see that God incited Satan, and then gave Satan permission to bring this suffering on Job.

    This is NOT what is taught by the majority of the church that claims to serve Christ.

    Now we also know this:

    Romans 8

    28And we know that all that happens to us is working for our good if we love God and are fitting into his plans.
    So the question remains why do Christians suffer ? We will answer that in the following posts.
    Last edited by Lou Newton; September 3, 2017, 01:24 PM.

  • #2
    Here are more English Translations of Job 2:3:

    KJ21
    And the Lord said unto Satan, “Hast thou considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one who feareth God and escheweth evil? And still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst Me against him to destroy him without cause.
    ASV
    And Jehovah said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job? for there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and turneth away from evil: and he still holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
    AMP
    The Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered and reflected on My servant Job? For there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God [with reverence] and abstains from and turns away from evil [because he honors God]. And still he maintains and holds tightly to his integrity, although you incited Me against him to destroy him without cause.
    AMPC
    And the Lord said to Satan, Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who [reverently] fears God and abstains from and shuns all evil [because it is wrong]? And still he holds fast his integrity, although you moved Me against him to destroy him without cause.
    BRG
    And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
    CSB
    Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? No one else on earth is like him, a man of perfect integrity, who fears God and turns away from evil. He still retains his integrity, even though you incited me against him, to destroy him for no good reason.
    CEB
    The Lord said to the Adversary, “Have you thought about my servant Job, for there is no one like him on earth, a man who is honest, who is of absolute integrity, who reveres God and avoids evil? He still holds on to his integrity, even though you incited me to ruin him for no reason.”
    CJB
    Adonai asked the Adversary, “Did you notice my servant Iyov, that there’s no one like him on earth, a blameless and upright man who fears God and shuns evil, and that he still holds on to his integrity, even though you provoked me against him to destroy him for no reason?
    CEV
    Then the Lord asked, “What do you think of my servant Job? No one on earth is like him—he is a truly good person, who respects me and refuses to do evil. And he hasn’t changed, even though you persuaded me to destroy him for no reason.”
    DARBY
    And Jehovah said to Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God and abstaineth from evil? and still he remaineth firm in his integrity, though thou movedst me against him, to swallow him up without cause.
    DRA
    And the Lord said to Satan: Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a man simple, and upright, and fearing God, and avoiding evil, and still keeping his innocence? But thou hast moved me against him, that I should afflict him without cause.
    ERV
    Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you noticed my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him. He is a good, faithful man. He respects God and refuses to do evil. He is still faithful, even though you asked me to let you destroy, without reason, everything he has.”
    ESV
    And the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil? He still holds fast his integrity, although you incited me against him to destroy him without reason.”
    ESVUK
    And the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil? He still holds fast his integrity, although you incited me against him to destroy him without reason.”
    EXB
    Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you noticed my servant Job [1:8]? No one else on earth is like him. He is an honest and innocent man, honoring God and staying away from evil [1:1]. You ·caused [or enticed] me to ·ruin [injure] him for no good reason, but he ·continues to be without blame [or maintains his innocence].”
    GNV
    And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou not considered my servant Job, how none is like him in the earth? an upright and just man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? for yet he continueth in his uprightness, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
    GW
    The Lord asked Satan, “Have you thought about my servant Job? No one in the world is like him! He is a man of integrity: He is decent, he fears God, and he stays away from evil. And he still holds on to his principles. You’re trying to provoke me into ruining him for no reason.”
    GNT
    “Did you notice my servant Job?” the Lord asked. “There is no one on earth as faithful and good as he is. He worships me and is careful not to do anything evil. You persuaded me to let you attack him for no reason at all, but Job is still as faithful as ever.”
    HCSB
    Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job? No one else on earth is like him, a man of perfect integrity, who fears God and turns away from evil. He still retains his integrity, even though you incited Me against him, to destroy him without just cause.”
    ICB
    Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you noticed my servant Job? No one else on earth is like him. He is an honest man, innocent of any wrong. He honors God and stays away from evil. You caused me to ruin him for no good reason. But he continues to be without blame.
    ISV
    The Lord asked Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one like him on earth. The man is blameless as well as upright. He fears God and keeps away from evil. He remains firm in his integrity, even though you have been urging me to overwhelm him without cause.”
    JUB
    And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my slave Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that fears God and has departed from evil and that he still retains his perfection, although thou didst incite me against him to destroy him without cause.
    KJV
    And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
    AKJV
    And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
    LEB
    So Yahweh asked Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? Indeed, there is no one like him on the earth—a blameless man and upright and God-fearing and turning away from evil. And still he persists in his blamelessness even though you incited me against him to destroy him for nothing.”
    TLB
    “Well, have you noticed my servant Job?” the Lord asked. “He is the finest man in all the earth—a good man who fears God and turns away from all evil. And he has kept his faith in me despite the fact that you persuaded me to let you harm him without any cause.”
    MSG
    One day when the angels came to report to God, Satan also showed up. God singled out Satan, saying, “And what have you been up to?” Satan answered God, “Oh, going here and there, checking things out.” Then God said to Satan, “Have you noticed my friend Job? There’s no one quite like him, is there—honest and true to his word, totally devoted to God and hating evil? He still has a firm grip on his integrity! You tried to trick me into destroying him, but it didn’t work.”
    MEV
    The Lord said to the Adversary, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and an upright man, who fears God and avoids evil? He still holds fast his integrity, although you moved Me against him, to destroy him without cause.”
    NOG
    Yahweh asked Satan, “Have you thought about my servant Job? No one in the world is like him! He is a man of integrity: He is decent, he fears Elohim, and he stays away from evil. And he still holds on to his principles. You’re trying to provoke me into ruining him for no reason.”
    NABRE
    The Lord said to the satan, “Have you noticed my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him, blameless and upright, fearing God and avoiding evil. He still holds fast to his innocence although you incited me against him to ruin him for nothing.”
    NASB
    The Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man fearing God and turning away from evil. And he still holds fast his integrity, although you incited Me against him to ruin him without cause.”
    NCV
    Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you noticed my servant Job? No one else on earth is like him. He is an honest and innocent man, honoring God and staying away from evil. You caused me to ruin him for no good reason, but he continues to be without blame.”
    NET
    Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a pure and upright man, one who fears God and turns away from evil. And he still holds firmly to his integrity, so that you stirred me up to destroy him without reason.”
    NIRV
    Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you thought about my servant Job? There isn’t anyone on earth like him. He is honest. He does what is right. He has respect for God and avoids evil. You tried to turn me against him. You wanted me to destroy him without any reason. But he still continues to be faithful.”
    NIV
    Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason.”
    NIVUK
    Then the Lord said to Satan, ‘Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason.’
    NKJV
    Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil? And still he holds fast to his integrity, although you incited Me against him, to destroy him without cause.”
    NLV
    The Lord said to Satan, “Have you thought about My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth. He is without blame, a man who is right and good. He fears God and turns away from sin. He still holds to his good ways, even when I allowed you to go against him, and to destroy him for no reason.”
    NLT
    Then the Lord asked Satan, “Have you noticed my servant Job? He is the finest man in all the earth. He is blameless—a man of complete integrity. He fears God and stays away from evil. And he has maintained his integrity, even though you urged me to harm him without cause.”
    NRSV
    The Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man who fears God and turns away from evil. He still persists in his integrity, although you incited me against him, to destroy him for no reason.”
    NRSVA
    The Lord said to Satan, ‘Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man who fears God and turns away from evil. He still persists in his integrity, although you incited me against him, to destroy him for no reason.’
    NRSVACE
    The Lord said to Satan, ‘Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man who fears God and turns away from evil. He still persists in his integrity, although you incited me against him, to destroy him for no reason.’
    NRSVCE
    The Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man who fears God and turns away from evil. He still persists in his integrity, although you incited me against him, to destroy him for no reason.”
    OJB
    And Hashem said unto Hasatan, Hast thou considered in your meditation Avdi (My Servant) Iyov, that there is none like him in ha’aretz, ish tam and yashar, yire Elohim, and shunning rah? And still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou inciteth Me against him, to ruin him for no reason.
    RSV
    And the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil? He still holds fast his integrity, although you moved me against him, to destroy him without cause.”
    RSVCE
    And the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil? He still holds fast his integrity, although you moved me against him, to destroy him without cause.”
    TLV
    Then Adonai said to the satan, “Have you noticed My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and spurns evil. And he still holds firmly to his integrity, though you incited Me against him to ruin him without any reason.”
    VOICE
    Eternal One: Well, have you looked into the man, Job, My servant? He is unlike any other person on the whole earth—a very good man—his character spotless, his integrity unquestioned. In fact, he so believes in Me that he seeks, in all things, to honor Me and deliberately avoids evil in all of his affairs. And I have found him to be unswervingly committed, despite the fact that you provoked Me to wreck him for no particular reason, to take away My protection and his prosperity.
    WEB
    Yahweh said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? For there is no one like him in the earth, a blameless and an upright man, one who fears God, and turns away from evil. He still maintains his integrity, although you incited me against him, to ruin him without cause.”
    WYC
    And the Lord said to Satan, Whether thou hast not considered my servant Job, that none in [the] earth is like him; he is a simple man, and rightful, and dreading God, and going away from evil, and yet holding innocence? But thou hast moved me against him, that I should torment him in vain/that thou vex him in vain. (And the Lord said to Satan, Hast thou seen my servant Job? there is one on earth like him; he is without guile, and upright, and feareth God/and revereth God, and goeth away from evil, and remaineth innocent. But thou hast moved me against him, that I should torment him without cause/that thou should vex him for no reason.)
    YLT
    And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary, `Hast thou set thy heart unto My servant Job because there is none like him in the land, a man perfect and upright, fearing God and turning aside from evil? and still he is keeping hold on his integrity, and thou dost move Me against him to swallow him up for nought!'

    Comment


    • #3
      When I was under pressure to quit or be fired from my 3rd straight job, I was greatly questioned God on why was all this stuff happening to me. Over time, 2 really important ideas came to me. The 1st was a prayer that I prayed to God just after trusting him to save me. I said to make me great in the spiritual. Hard times are God's gym, only a different kind of gym. The next was the friendship I still have from a co-worker that is still there. He has spoken some of the kindest words to me that any person has said to me. And I have tried to help him with what God has shared with me in his hardships. If we end up being eternal friends from that happening to me, isn't that worth the price? In the natural, we realize that the right amount of suffering and hardship brings strength and stamina. So also, we shouldn't be concerned with our trials as much as we are. I am reminded of the time John the Baptist was in prison, and he asked Jesus if it was really him, or should we look for another? And Jesus calls him great in the kingdom of heaven. So we just need to hope in Jesus that anything we face now is temporal compared to the time with him.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by redsoxmaloney View Post
        When I was under pressure to quit or be fired from my 3rd straight job, I was greatly questioned God on why was all this stuff happening to me. Over time, 2 really important ideas came to me. The 1st was a prayer that I prayed to God just after trusting him to save me. I said to make me great in the spiritual. Hard times are God's gym, only a different kind of gym. The next was the friendship I still have from a co-worker that is still there. He has spoken some of the kindest words to me that any person has said to me. And I have tried to help him with what God has shared with me in his hardships. If we end up being eternal friends from that happening to me, isn't that worth the price? In the natural, we realize that the right amount of suffering and hardship brings strength and stamina. So also, we shouldn't be concerned with our trials as much as we are. I am reminded of the time John the Baptist was in prison, and he asked Jesus if it was really him, or should we look for another? And Jesus calls him great in the kingdom of heaven. So we just need to hope in Jesus that anything we face now is temporal compared to the time with him.
        Very outstanding comment Tom, thanks.

        Comment


        • #5
          Many claim that Satan was allowed in heaven to present himself before The Lord; but Satan had been thrown out of heaven for rebelling against The Lord. ( no sin is allowed in heaven) So Satan could not go into heaven. We know that Satan had already been thrown out because he states, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.”

          This meeting took place on the earth, not in heaven. God is omnipresent, He is on the throne in heaven, but also was on the earth and resided in the City of God, Salem. He called Himself , Melchizedek ( The King of Righteousness) and was The King of Salem (Peace). This is why Jerusalem is called the City of The Great King.
          Now some will claim that Melchizedek is not God. BUT there is One and Only One King of Righteousness and Only One who is King of Peace.

          But let us ask ourselves these questions:

          Who is the only being who has no father or mother ?

          Who is the only being who has no beginning and no end ?

          Who is the only being who has the power of indestructible life ?

          One and Only One Being has these qualities and that is G
          od Almighty.

          Now let's see what the Holy Spirit said about Melchizedek in Hebrews 7:

          Hebrews 7 New International Version (NIV)

          Melchizedek the Priest


          7 This Melchizedek was king of Salem and priest of God Most High. He met Abraham returning from the defeat of the kings and blessed him,2 and Abraham gave him a tenth of everything. First, the name Melchizedek means “king of righteousness”; then also, “king of Salem” means “king of peace.” 3 Without father or mother, without genealogy,without beginning of days or end of life, resembling the Son of God, he remains a priest forever.

          4 Just think how great he was: Even the patriarch Abraham gave him a tenth of the plunder! 5 Now the law requires the descendants of Levi who become priests to collect a tenth from the people—that is, from their fellow Israelites—even though they also are descended from Abraham.6 This man, however, did not trace his descent from Levi, yet he collected a tenth from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises. 7 And without doubt the lesser is blessed by the greater. 8 In the one case, the tenth is collected by people who die; but in the other case, by him who is declared to be living. 9 One might even say that Levi, who collects the tenth, paid the tenth through Abraham, 10 because when Melchizedek met Abraham, Levi was still in the body of his ancestor.

          Jesus Like Melchizedek


          11 If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood—and indeed the law given to the people established that priesthood—why was there still need for another priest to come, one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron? 12 For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also. 13 He of whom these things are said belonged to a different tribe, and no one from that tribe has ever served at the altar. 14 For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah,and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests. 15 And what we have said is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears, 16 one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life.17 For it is declared:

          “You are a priest forever,
          in the order of Melchizedek.”


          18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

          20 And it was not without an oath! Others became priests without any oath, 21 but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him:

          “The Lord has sworn
          and will not change his mind:
          ‘You are a priest forever.’”

          22 Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantor of a better covenant.

          23 Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore he is able to save completelythose who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

          26 Such a high priest truly meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. 27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men in all their weakness; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.
          So we see that The Holy Scriptures state that Melchizedek has all of these qualities and so He has to be God Almighty.

          But it also states that Jesus is like Melchizedek and so Jesus is God Almighty.

          So if Melchizedek and Jesus are both of the same rank and are both a Priest forever, they are One and the same.
          Last edited by Lou Newton; September 10, 2017, 12:45 AM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Let us examine this statement I quoted:

            "Let this encourage those of you who belong to Christ: the storm

            may be tempestuous, but it is only temporary. The clouds that

            are temporarily rolling over your head will pass, and then you will

            have fair weather, an eternal sunshine of glory. Can you not watch

            with Christ for one hour?"


            -William Gurnall
            The crowds were so large that Jesus had to get into a boat along the shore when He was preforming miracles. Thousands followed to see miracles or to get free food.

            But even his 11 disciples fell asleep in the garden of Gethsemane.

            Gethsemane


            36 Then Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to them, “Sit here while I go over there and pray.” 37 He took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee along with him, and he began to be sorrowful and troubled. 38 Then he said to them, “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me.

            39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”

            40 Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. “Couldn’t you men keep watch with me for one hour?” he asked Peter. 41“Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

            42 He went away a second time and prayed, “My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done.”

            43 When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. 44 So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing.

            45 Then he returned to the disciples and said to them, “Are you still sleeping and resting? Look, the hour has come, and the Son of Man is delivered into the hands of sinners. 46 Rise! Let us go! Here comes my betrayer!”
            So here Jesus tells us a good reason to watch and pray with Him in His trials. It is so we will not fall into temptation ourselves.

            Peter fell asleep instead of watching and praying with Jesus and he fell into temptation and denied that he even even knew Jesus.

            The only way to walk in righteousness is to walk with Jesus. But walking with Jesus means going where He went and doing what He did.

            Seeing Jesus preform miracles through us is really great, but picking up our cross and following Him is not so pleasant.

            Can we watch and pray with Him for one hour. That hour will be short and we will live with Him forever in eternity.

            When we see the sufferings of Jesus it causes us to love Him and want to follow Him. We have to watch and pray WITH JESUS, so see His sufferings.

            Again, seeing the sufferings of Jesus causes us to love Him. Loving Him causes us to want to obey Him.

            That means alone time in the garden of Gethsemane with Jesus.

            But there are many more reasons we suffer.
            Last edited by Lou Newton; September 3, 2017, 03:42 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              It's so completely obvious that melchizedek is Christ, it's actually quite funny to have someone claim he's someone else. There's not a logical, cohesive argument one could make to say he's not Yahweh.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by redsoxmaloney View Post
                It's so completely obvious that melchizedek is Christ, it's actually quite funny to have someone claim he's someone else. There's not a logical, cohesive argument one could make to say he's not Yahweh.
                I agree Tom, people have to choose if they are going to believe tradition or believe The Holy Scriptures.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Hebrews 5

                  5 In the same way, Christ did not take on himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him,

                  “You are my Son;
                  today I have become your Father.”

                  6 And he says in another place,

                  “You are a priest forever,
                  in the order of Melchizedek.”

                  7During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. 8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him 10 and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.
                  The Manhood of Jesus ( Jesus was fully a man but Jesus was also fully God) did not want to face the shame of the cross, but He submitted to the will of God and surrendered to the cross.

                  It was through this suffering that Jesus learned to obey God. If Jesus learned obedience by suffering how can we hope to learn to obey God without suffering.

                  For one to think they can learn to obey God without suffering is to think they are greater than Christ.

                  Jesus had to be made perfect before He was able to pay for our sins. BUT Jesus had to be made perfect as the above passage says before He was perfect. If Jesus had not learned to obey God and surrender to the cross by His suffering in Gethsemane, He could not have paid for our sins with His blood.

                  NOTICE than even the manhood of Jesus was not born perfect, but had to be made perfect by learning to obey God by suffering.

                  If even Jesus had to learn obedience by suffering, and we have to be conformed to his image to enter heaven, then we have to learn to obey God by suffering too.

                  1 Peter 4

                  Suffering for Being a Christian


                  12 Dear friends, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal that has come on you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you.13 But rejoice inasmuch as you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed. 14 If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. 15 If you suffer, it should not be as a murderer or thief or any other kind of criminal, or even as a meddler.16 However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name. 17For it is time for judgment to begin with God’s household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 And,

                  “If it is hard for the righteous to be saved,
                  what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?”


                  19 So then, those who suffer according to God’s will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good.
                  Last edited by Lou Newton; September 3, 2017, 09:36 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Lou Newton View Post
                    Jesus had to be made perfect before He was able to pay for our sins. BUT Jesus had to be made perfect as the above passage says before He was perfect. If Jesus had not learned to obey God and surrender to the cross by His suffering in Gethsemane, He could not have paid for our sins with His blood.

                    NOTICE than even the manhood of Jesus was not born perfect, but had to be made perfect by learning to obey God by suffering.

                    If even Jesus had to learn obedience by suffering, and we have to be conformed to his image to enter heaven, then we have to learn to obey God by suffering too.
                    The word translated as "perfect" seems often misunderstood. I suggest modern culture brings its flavor to the word, at least it did in my mind until I investigated it. Jesus was born spotless, according to the law, and He remained so until His sacrifice. In that sense He was already perfect, as we commonly use the word. If He had to be made perfect, in that sense, then we might think He was imperfect; and this may convey to our minds some fault or blemish or lack.

                    being made perfect,G5048
                    τελειόω: teleioō: tel-i-o'-o
                    From G5046; to complete, that is, (literally) accomplish, or (figuratively) consummate (in character): - consecrate, finish, fulfil, (make) perfect.

                    Also translated elsewhere as: made perfect, perfected, consecrated, finished, fulfilled.

                    Does this make you think of another angle?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Lou Newton View Post

                      No some will claim that Melchizedek is not God. BUT there is One and Only One King of Righteousness and Only One who is King of Peace.

                      But let us ask ourselves these questions:

                      Who is the only being who has no father or mother ?

                      Who is the only being who has no beginning and no end ?

                      Who is the only being who has the power of indestructible life ?

                      One and Only One Being has these qualities and that is G
                      od Almighty.

                      No let's see what the Holy Spirit said about Melchizedek in Hebrews 7:



                      So we see that The Holy Scriptures state that Melchizedek has all of these qualities and so He has to be God Almighty.

                      But it also states that Jesus is like Melchizedek and so Jesus is God Almighty.

                      So if Melchizedek and Jesus are both of the same rank and are both a Priest forever, they are One and the same.
                      -------------------------------------------------------
                      Is there some reason to introduce Melchizedek into this topic
                      “Why do Christians Suffer?”
                      What am I missing?

                      Melchizedek was addressed under Word Studies back in early June 2017.
                      Might it be more beneficial to post comments about Melchizedek there?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        A variety of English words are used for “sufferings” in the English New Testament versions.
                        Some are: affliction(s), anguish, distress, hard times, humiliation, persecution(s), suffering(s), temptation(s), testing(s), time of trouble(s), trail(s), tribulation(s), trouble(s). The English word “endurance” is used in connection with suffering as well as faith. (James 1:2)
                        --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        Some use Romans 5:12 (NLT) to explain the origination of sufferings as the fault of Adam.
                        12 When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam’s sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned.

                        --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        The Apostle James addresses suffering.
                        From the NLT
                        James 1
                        2 Dear brothers and sisters, when troubles (trails – Greek peirasmos) of any kind come your way, consider it an opportunity for great joy. 3 For you know that when your faith is tested, your endurance has a chance to grow. 4 So let it grow, for when your endurance is fully developed, you will be perfect and complete, needing nothing.
                        5 If you need wisdom, ask our generous God, and he will give it to you. He will not rebuke you for asking. 6 But when you ask him, be sure that your faith is in God alone. Do not waver, for a person with divided loyalty is as unsettled as a wave of the sea that is blown and tossed by the wind. 7 Such people should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. 8 Their loyalty is divided between God and the world, and they are unstable in everything they do.
                        9 Believers who are poor have something to boast about, for God has honored them. 10 And those who are rich should boast that God has humbled (humiliation – Greek tapeinosis) them. They will fade away like a little flower in the field. 11 The hot sun rises and the grass withers; the little flower droops and falls, and its beauty fades away. In the same way, the rich will fade away with all of their achievements.
                        12 God blesses those who patiently endure testing (testing – Greek peirasmos) and temptation (temptation is not in the Minority Greek text). Afterward they will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him. 13 And remember, when you are being tempted, do not say, “God is tempting me.” God is never tempted to do wrong, and he never tempts anyone else. 14 Temptation (tempted – Greek peirazo) comes from our own desires, which entice us and drag us away. 15 These desires give birth to sinful actions. And when sin is allowed to grow, it gives birth to death.
                        16 So don’t be misled, my dear brothers and sisters. 17 Whatever is good and perfect is a gift coming down to us from God our Father, who created all the lights in the heavens (literally – father of lights). He never changes or casts a shifting shadow. 18 He chose to give birth to us by giving us his true word. And we, out of all creation, became his prized possession.

                        James 5
                        10 For examples of patience in suffering, dear brothers and sisters, look at the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord. 11 We give great honor to those who endure under suffering (under suffering is not in any Greek texts). For instance, you know about Job, a man of great endurance. You can see how the Lord was kind to him at the end, for the Lord is full of tenderness and mercy.

                        ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        The New Testament is initially and essentially divine revelation. God is telling man what He wants him to know rather than what man wants to know. This is the reason that speculating upon what the Bible might mean can never be divine revelation. There is much the Lord does not address. Is the biblical bottom line on suffering about what God wants man to understand as the cause or the why? Or, is the biblical bottom line about trusting God –- regardless of circumstances?

                        Can you watch your children be murdered before your eyes.
                        For yourself be tortured and killed - yet trust in God?
                        Afterwards, you arrive to be tormented in hell.
                        Will you still praise God for his holiness and justice?
                        Will you shout God is not unjust because He gave you what you deserved?

                        When is it that professors of faith shall recognize that whatever are their conditions, they have it better than they deserve?
                        Much, very much are the concerns of the professors about suffering! - Because there is doubt about whom God is or that He is, as well as the prideful idea that we creatures have some stature of our own.
                        Last edited by glen smith; September 4, 2017, 01:52 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by glen smith View Post
                          -------------------------------------------------------
                          Is there some reason to introduce Melchizedek into this topic
                          “Why do Christians Suffer?”
                          What am I missing?

                          Melchizedek was addressed under Word Studies back in early June 2017.
                          Might it be more beneficial to post comments about Melchizedek there?
                          I thought I made this very clear why Melchizedek came into the topic in my first post. But since it is my article, can I not write whatever I feel led to write.

                          Certainly Job is revealed as a man who honored God and was a man who suffered greatly. We all know of his great sufferings.

                          6 One day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them. 7 The Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”

                          Satan answered the Lord, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.”
                          Many claim that Satan was allowed in heaven to present himself before The Lord; but Satan had been thrown out of heaven for rebelling against The Lord. ( no sin is allowed in heaven) So Satan could not go into heaven. We know that Satan had already been thrown out because he states, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.”

                          This meeting took place on the earth, not in heaven. God is omnipresent, He is on the throne in heaven, but also was on the earth and resided in the City of God, Salem. He called Himself , Melchizedek ( The King of Righteousness) and was The King of Salem (Peace). This is why Jerusalem is called the City of The Great King.
                          Most seem to think that this meeting between God and the angels took place in heaven and Satan entered heaven. Satan was thrown out of heaven and is not permitted to enter it. Since the meeting took place on the earth, it is profitable to show that God lived on the earth as Melchizedek, The King of Righteousness, and King of Salem, and that is why Jerusalem is called the city of God.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Baruch View Post

                            The word translated as "perfect" seems often misunderstood. I suggest modern culture brings its flavor to the word, at least it did in my mind until I investigated it. Jesus was born spotless, according to the law, and He remained so until His sacrifice. In that sense He was already perfect, as we commonly use the word. If He had to be made perfect, in that sense, then we might think He was imperfect; and this may convey to our minds some fault or blemish or lack.

                            being made perfect,G5048
                            τελειόω: teleioō: tel-i-o'-o
                            From G5046; to complete, that is, (literally) accomplish, or (figuratively) consummate (in character): - consecrate, finish, fulfil, (make) perfect.

                            Also translated elsewhere as: made perfect, perfected, consecrated, finished, fulfilled.

                            Does this make you think of another angle?
                            Hi Barry. Good comment. Jesus was made perfect, but that does not mean He was guilty of any sin before He was made perfect. The Manhood of Jesus had to be proved to be perfect before God would call Him perfect. Jesus was born innocent, or not guilty of any wrong. But He had to suffer at Gethsemane and learn to obey God by this suffering before He was made perfect as the scriptures claim.

                            Evidence of this truth is in the fact that Jesus was tempted by Satan in the desert, but by that suffering in the desert He also learned to obey God and matured toward perfection. It seems Peter also tempted Jesus not to go to the cross and Jesus rebuked Peter.

                            But the worst suffering was in the garden of Gethsemane where Jesus sweat drops of blood, He was in such torment. Of course what God was asking Him to do was very difficult. But Jesus chose to do the will of God. Perfection can not fail. But Jesus had to have the real opportunity to fail, or He would not serve the purpose of God. Once Jesus chose not to fail, He was made perfect.

                            Many claim that Adam was born perfect. But perfection can not fail. Adam did fail and so was not perfect. Adam was born innocent, or not yet guilty of any wrong. But Adam was tempted by Eve and failed. So Adam was not perfect and also lost his innocence and was guilty of sin.

                            Jesus was also born innocent but was tempted and did not fail ,but chose to obey God. If Jesus did not have the opportunity to be tempted and could chose to sin, then men could claim that Jesus does not understand our difficult predicament. But Jesus was tempted and does understand our difficult situation when being tempted.

                            So Jesus was born innocent, but had the real opportunity to fail and so was not yet perfect until He suffered and learned to obey God by this suffering. Once Jesus chose to obey the will of God He was perfect.

                            The temptation, torment and suffering at Gethsemane was very necessary to make Jesus perfect before He could pay for our sins.

                            Thanks again Barry, you are correct, this is very misunderstood by most.
                            Last edited by Lou Newton; September 4, 2017, 02:31 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by glen smith View Post
                              A variety of English words are used for “sufferings” in the English New Testament versions.
                              Some are: affliction(s), anguish, distress, hard times, humiliation, persecution(s), suffering(s), temptation(s), testing(s), time of trouble(s), trail(s), tribulation(s), trouble(s). The English word “endurance” is used in connection with suffering as well as faith. (James 1:2)
                              --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                              Some use Romans 5:12 (NLT) to explain the origination of sufferings as the fault of Adam.
                              12 When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam’s sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned.

                              --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                              The Apostle James addresses suffering.
                              From the NLT
                              James 1
                              2 Dear brothers and sisters, when troubles (trails – Greek peirasmos) of any kind come your way, consider it an opportunity for great joy. 3 For you know that when your faith is tested, your endurance has a chance to grow. 4 So let it grow, for when your endurance is fully developed, you will be perfect and complete, needing nothing.
                              5 If you need wisdom, ask our generous God, and he will give it to you. He will not rebuke you for asking. 6 But when you ask him, be sure that your faith is in God alone. Do not waver, for a person with divided loyalty is as unsettled as a wave of the sea that is blown and tossed by the wind. 7 Such people should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. 8 Their loyalty is divided between God and the world, and they are unstable in everything they do.
                              9 Believers who are poor have something to boast about, for God has honored them. 10 And those who are rich should boast that God has humbled (humiliation – Greek tapeinosis) them. They will fade away like a little flower in the field. 11 The hot sun rises and the grass withers; the little flower droops and falls, and its beauty fades away. In the same way, the rich will fade away with all of their achievements.
                              12 God blesses those who patiently endure testing (testing – Greek peirasmos) and temptation (temptation is not in the Minority Greek text). Afterward they will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him. 13 And remember, when you are being tempted, do not say, “God is tempting me.” God is never tempted to do wrong, and he never tempts anyone else. 14 Temptation (tempted – Greek peirazo) comes from our own desires, which entice us and drag us away. 15 These desires give birth to sinful actions. And when sin is allowed to grow, it gives birth to death.
                              16 So don’t be misled, my dear brothers and sisters. 17 Whatever is good and perfect is a gift coming down to us from God our Father, who created all the lights in the heavens (literally – father of lights). He never changes or casts a shifting shadow. 18 He chose to give birth to us by giving us his true word. And we, out of all creation, became his prized possession.

                              James 5
                              10 For examples of patience in suffering, dear brothers and sisters, look at the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord. 11 We give great honor to those who endure under suffering (under suffering is not in any Greek texts). For instance, you know about Job, a man of great endurance. You can see how the Lord was kind to him at the end, for the Lord is full of tenderness and mercy.

                              ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                              The New Testament is initially and essentially divine revelation. God is telling man what He wants him to know rather than what man wants to know. This is the reason that speculating upon what the Bible might mean can never be divine revelation. There is much the Lord does not address. Is the biblical bottom line on suffering about what God wants man to understand as the cause or the why? Or, is the biblical bottom line about trusting God –- regardless of circumstances?

                              Can you watch your children be murdered before your eyes.
                              For yourself be tortured and killed - yet trust in God?
                              Afterwards, you arrive to be tormented in hell.
                              Will you still praise God for his holiness and justice?
                              Will you shout God is not unjust because He gave you what you deserved?

                              When is it that professors of faith shall recognize that whatever are their conditions, they have it better than they deserve?
                              Much, very much are the concerns of the professors about suffering! - Because there is doubt about whom God is or that He is, as well as the prideful idea that we creatures have some stature of our own.
                              Hi Glen. Every man would fail and fall into sin if God allowed him to be tempted more than he could stand. It is only by the grace of God that any man endures suffering and is able to enter heaven. God allows us to be tempted and also allows us to suffer. But as God put LIMITS on Satan concerning Job, God puts limits on our suffering so we will not fail, IF we trust in Him to save us.

                              Comment

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