Pastor – According to the New Testament is the pastor a position in the New Testament churches?

[glen smith]

Lou has raised issues with the biblical offices in the New Testament churches.
The most common church office since the Protestant Reformation is that of pastor.
Is the pastor a position in the New Testament churches?

Ephesians 4:11
And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,

In the New Testament the Greek word translated pastors is poimenas – a plural form of poimēn. It means one who tends flocks or herds, a shepherd, herdsman.

Frequency in New Testament: 18
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Eight (8) times the Greek poimēn refers to a herdsman or shepherd.
One who tends flocks, or herds, a shepherd, a herdsman as in:
Matthew 9:36; Mark 6:34; Luke 2:8, 15, 18, 20; John 10:2, 12
MOUNCE

Matthew 9:36	And when he saw the crowds, he had compassion on them, because they were distressed and dejected, like sheep without a shepherd (poimena | ποιμένα | acc sg masc).
Mark 6:34	When Jesus got out of the boat, he saw the large crowd, and had compassion on them, because they were like sheep without a shepherd (poimena | ποιμένα | acc sg masc). And he began to teach them many things.
Luke 2:8	There were shepherds (poimenes | ποιμένες | nom pl masc) in that region who were living out in the fields and keeping night-watch over their flock.
Luke 2:15	When the angels departed from them into heaven, the shepherds (poimenes | ποιμένες | nom pl masc) began to speak to one another, “Let us go across to Bethlehem and see this thing that has taken place, which the Lord has made known to us.”
Luke 2:18	And all who heard marveled about what had been told to them by the shepherds (poimenōn | ποιμένων | gen pl masc).
Luke 2:20	Then the shepherds (poimenes | ποιμένες | nom pl masc) returned, glorifying and praising God for all they had heard and seen, just as it had been told them.
John 10:2	But the one who enters by the gate is the shepherd (poimēn | ποιμήν | nom sg masc) of the sheep.
John 10:12	The hired hand, since he is not a shepherd (poimēn | ποιμήν | nom sg masc) and the sheep do not belong to him, sees a wolf coming and abandons the sheep and runs away — and the wolf attacks the flock and scatters them.

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Nine (9) times the Greek poimēn is used as a figure of speech attributing aspects of a shepherd to the Lord Jesus. In these cases a Greek lexicon will define the word with the analogous meaning rather than a literal one. Therefore, providing the meaning as superintendent or guardian.
Matthew 25:32; 26:31; Mark14:27; John 10:11, 12, 16; Hebrews 13: 20; 1 Peter 2:25
MOUNCE

Matthew 25:32	All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd (poimēn | ποιμήν | nom sg masc) separates the sheep from the goats;
Matthew 26:31	Then Jesus said to them, “You will all fall away because of me this very night. For it stands written, ‘I will strike the shepherd (poimena | ποιμένα | acc sg masc), and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.’
Mark 14:27	And Jesus said to them, “All of you will fall away, because it is written, ‘I will strike the shepherd (poimena | ποιμένα | acc sg masc), and the sheep will be scattered.’
John 10:11	“I am the good shepherd (poimēn | ποιμήν | nom sg masc); the good shepherd (poimēn | ποιμήν | nom sg masc) lays down his life for the sheep.
John 10:14	I am the good shepherd (poimēn | ποιμήν | nom sg masc). I know my own and they know me,
John 10:16	I have other sheep which are not of this fold. These too I must bring. They will listen to my voice, and there will be one flock, with one shepherd (poimēn | ποιμήν | nom sg masc).
Hebrews 13:20	And may the God of peace, who, by the blood of the eternal covenant, brought up from the dead the great shepherd (poimena | ποιμένα | acc sg masc) of the sheep, our Lord Jesus,
1 Peter 2:25	For you were like sheep, going astray, but now you have turned back to the shepherd (poimena | ποιμένα | acc sg masc) and guardian of your souls.

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One time the Greek word poimenas is translated into some English Bibles as pastors.
MOUNCE

Ephesians 4:11

And it was he who gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors (poimenas | ποιμένας | acc pl masc) and teachers,

==========================================
The following English versions use the word pastors to translate the Greek poimenas.

KJ21
And He gave some to be apostles, and some prophets, and some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,
ASV
And he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
AMP
And [His gifts to the church were varied and] He Himself appointed some as apostles [special messengers, representatives], some as prophets [who speak a new message from God to the people], some as evangelists [who spread the good news of salvation], and some as pastors and teachers [to shepherd and guide and instruct],
AMPC
And His gifts were [varied; He Himself appointed and gave men to us] some to be apostles (special messengers), some prophets (inspired preachers and expounders), some evangelists (preachers of the Gospel, traveling missionaries), some pastors (shepherds of His flock) and teachers.
BRG
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
CSB
And he himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers,
CEB
He gave some apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers.
CEV
Christ chose some of us to be apostles, prophets, missionaries, pastors, and teachers,
DRA
And he gave some apostles, and some prophets, and other some evangelists, and other some pastors and doctors,
EHV
He himself gave the apostles, as well as the prophets, as well as the evangelists, as well as the pastors and teachers,
EXB
And ·Christ gave gifts to people—he made some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to go and tell the Good News, and some to have the work of caring for and teaching God’s people [^Lhe himself gave apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors/shepherds, and teachers].
GNV
He therefore gave some to be Apostles, and some Prophets, and some Evangelists, and some Pastors, and Teachers,
GW
He also gave apostles, prophets, missionaries, as well as pastors and teachers as gifts to his church.
GNT
It was he who “gave gifts to people”; he appointed some to be apostles, others to be prophets, others to be evangelists, others to be pastors and teachers.
HCSB
And He personally gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers,
ISV
And it is he who gifted some to be apostles, others to be prophets, others to be evangelists, and still others to be pastors and teachers,
JUB
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers,
KJV
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
AKJV
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
LEB
And he himself gave some as apostles and some as prophets and some as evangelists and some as pastors and teachers
MSG
But that doesn’t mean you should all look and speak and act the same. Out of the generosity of Christ, each of us is given his own gift. The text for this is, He climbed the high mountain, He captured the enemy and seized the booty, He handed it all out in gifts to the people. Is it not true that the One who climbed up also climbed down, down to the valley of earth? And the One who climbed down is the One who climbed back up, up to highest heaven. He handed out gifts above and below, filled heaven with his gifts, filled earth with his gifts. He handed out gifts of apostle, prophet, evangelist, and pastor-teacher to train Christ’s followers in skilled servant work, working within Christ’s body, the church, until we’re all moving rhythmically and easily with each other, efficient and graceful in response to God’s Son, fully mature adults, fully developed within and without, fully alive like Christ.
MEV
He gave some to be apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers,
MOUNCE
And it was he who gave the apostles, the · prophets, the · evangelists, the · pastors and teachers,
NOG
He also gave apostles, prophets, missionaries, as well as pastors and teachers as gifts to his church.
NABRE
And he gave some as apostles, others as prophets, others as evangelists, others as pastors and teachers,
NASB
And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,
NET
It was he who gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,
NIRV
So Christ himself gave the gift of the apostles to the church. He gave the prophets and those who preach the good news. And he also gave the pastors and teachers as a gift to the church.
NIV
So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers,
NIVUK
So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers,
NKJV
And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,
NLT
Now these are the gifts Christ gave to the church: the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, and the pastors and teachers.
NLV
Christ gave gifts to men. He gave to some the gift to be missionaries, some to be preachers, others to be preachers who go from town to town. He gave others the gift to be church leaders and teachers.
NRSV
The gifts he gave were that some would be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers,
NRSVA
The gifts he gave were that some would be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers,
NRSVACE
The gifts he gave were that some would be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers,
NRSVCE
The gifts he gave were that some would be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers,
NTE
So these were the gifts that he gave. Some were to be apostles, others prophets, others evangelists, and others pastors and teachers.
TPT
And he has appointed some with grace to be apostles, and some with grace to be prophets, and some with grace to be evangelists, and some with grace to be pastors, and some with grace to be teachers.
RSV
And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers,
RSVCE
And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers,
VOICE
It was the risen One who handed down to us such gifted leaders—some emissaries, some prophets, some evangelists, as well as some pastor-teachers—
WE
The gifts he gave are these: some are to be apostles; some prophets; some evangelists; some pastors and teachers.
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The following English version use the word preachers to translate the Greek poimenas.

PHILLIPS
His “gifts to men” were varied. Some he made his messengers, some prophets, some preachers of the Gospel; to some he gave the power to guide and teach his people. His gifts were made that Christians might be properly equipped for their service, that the whole body might be built up until the time comes when, in the unity of the common faith and common knowledge of the Son of God, we arrive at real maturity—that measure of development which is meant by the “fullness of Christ”.
==========================================
The following English versions use the phrase “"the work of caring for"” to translate the Greek poimenas.

ERV
And that same Christ gave these gifts to people: He made some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to go and tell the Good News, and some to care for and teach God’s people.
ICB
And Christ gave gifts to men—he made some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to go and tell the Good News, and some to have the work of caring for and teaching God’s people.
NCV
And Christ gave gifts to people—he made some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to go and tell the Good News, and some to have the work of caring for and teaching God’s people.
==========================================
The following English versions use the word shepherds to translate the Greek poimenas.
CJB
Furthermore, he gave some people as emissaries, some as prophets, some as proclaimers of the Good News, and some as shepherds and teachers.
DARBY
and *he* has given some apostles, and some prophets, and some evangelists, and some shepherds and teachers,
DLNT
And He Himself gave some as apostles, and others as prophets, and others as evangelists, and others as shepherds and teachers,
ESV
And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers,
ESVUK
And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers,
TLB
Some of us have been given special ability as apostles; to others he has given the gift of being able to preach well; some have special ability in winning people to Christ, helping them to trust him as their Savior; still others have a gift for caring for God’s people as a shepherd does his sheep, leading and teaching them in the ways of God.
NMB
And the very same made some apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some shepherds, and some teachers,
TLV
He Himself gave some to be emissaries, some as prophets, some as proclaimers of the Good News, and some as shepherds and teachers—
WEB
He gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, shepherds and teachers;
WYC
And he gave some apostles, some prophets, others evangelists, others shepherds and teachers,
YLT
and He gave some [as] apostles, and some [as] prophets, and some [as] proclaimers of good news, and some [as] shepherds and teachers,
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The question: According to the New Testament is the pastor a position in the New Testament churches?

[Lou Newton]

Glen it is obvious to anyone who has read the NT that God calls some men to the ministry of pastor. BUT it is also obvious to me that not one man in the NT took the title of pastor upon himself. Paul was certainly called to the ministry of a pastor. BUT Paul never once addressed himself as Pastor Paul, not once.

Not only Paul, but not one other leader called of God, took a title upon himself.

God certainly gives some men the gift of healing. God has given that gift to me. I have prayed for people who were told they would die within the hour, and God healed them and they left the hospital that same day. Countless people have been healed by Jesus as I prayed for them. I could feel the healing power flow out of me, and into them. So could they feel this power flow out of me and into them.

BUT I would never call myself Healer Lou. It would not be the truth, but a lie. For I can not heal. I can not heal a mild cold, let alone total kidney failure. I have no control over who is healed, or when, or of what.

For I did not control the power. The power came from The Holy Spirit who was living inside of me. Certainly no move of God starts with men as Peter tells us.

I can only obey The Lord Jesus. If Jesus tells me to pray for a person to be healed, and I obey, every single person was healed that He told me to pray for.

God also calls some men to the ministry of pastor. I am called to that ministry. But it would be lie to call myself Pastor Lou Newton. I can not lead anyone out of danger. I can not protect anyone from Satan. I can not guide anyone. To call myself Pastor of men, would be a lie. My calling is to point men to Christ and tell them to make Him their Pastor instead of me.

If I do not want people to make me their Pastor; and I want them to make Jesus their Pastor; why would I put the title Pastor before my name ?

I am a man. But it would be ridiculous to call myself Man Lou Newton. For every man is also a man. Why would I take a title to point this out to everyone. Titles are simply taken by men to put themselves above others.

What is the difference between the RCC priest calling himself, Father John; and the reformed leader calling himself Pastor John.

We have one Father and that is God. We have one Shepard and that is also God.

[Baruch]

Jesus and Peter
Joh 21:15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.
Joh 21:16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
Joh 21:17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
Joh 21:18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.
Joh 21:19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.

This is a marvelous passage. I think I've written about this before. I heard a good sermon on it long ago. But I'll stay on topic.

Jesus here restores Peter, after his devastating renunciation of Jesus on that dreadful night, and appoints him to...

Feed my lambs. (In the Greek, feed / pasture my little lambs.)

Feed my sheep. (In the Greek, tend, as a shepherd, my sheep / fold. Supervise, rule.)

Feed my sheep. (In the Greek, feed / pasture my sheep / fold.)

He didn't once say here "but remember, don't dare call yourself pastor". I do think the context makes the Matthew 23 pericope clear. It is not about titles. It is acting appropriately and honestly out of a pure heart, which is the opposite of hypocrisy; and serving the brethren, even as Jesus our Master washed His brothers' feet. The Jewish leaders were liars, and guilty of oppressing their flock and blocking the way to God. This is a grievous sin against God. They bind the people to obey Moses, but don't do so themselves.

I also think we maybe need to apply some practical sense to our use of language. Imagine walking into a church and seeking the man who is filling the role of pastor. So you say, "Where is the pastor?" And you get all manner of circumspect answers about Jesus being the only Pastor, and no man here is called pastor, etc. etc. Seems kind of silly. Or walking into a ceramics shop: No man here is called potter, God is the Master Potter. While these situations may make for an opening to glorify God, eventually you need to deal with the issue: you seek the man in order to make your request. :)

And yes, there is a danger of idolizing a man or his office or his ministry. We need to take care to maintain an appropriate humility, and not allow others to even appear to worship the station of a man.

[glen smith]

The intended question, “"Was the pastor a position in the churches in the age of New Testament?”"

Lou answered the intended question. Summarizing his post he contended there was the position of pastor and said the evidence was obvious to anyone who reads the NT. Furthermore, he states the Apostle Paul was called to the ministry of pastor.

There are two questions which arise from his answer.
What is the same and what is the difference between the position of apostle and pastor –- specifically in the cases of the Apostles Paul and Peter. Using the passage posted by Baruch in John 21 is an appropriate place to start examining the roles of the Apostle Peter.

Concerning the use of a title before ones name, Lou continues the points he made in post #5 under the topic “COULD THIS be OUR MOST CRITICAL NEED?” However, the question of this topic did not ask about the use of titles before names but about a position of ministry or service referred to as pastor in the New Testament. Lou contends Christian humans should not use titles which indicate their ministry or service before their names.

Baruch makes excellent points about the use of titles.
Lou's objection to titles might be about those who use them so as to claim a superior position in the congregation or a superior claim to a greater spirituality. In either case the base issue might be about authority and power.

The issue of claiming a superior position in the congregation or denomination deals with ecclesiastical polity (church government) and can be examined under bishops and elders. The issue of claiming a greater spirituality can be examined under prophets. The question of a pending post, "Was the bishop a position in the churches in the age of New Testament?”" is close to being ready to post.

[Lou Newton]

The intended question, “"Was the pastor a position in the churches in the age of New Testament?”"

Lou answered the intended question. Summarizing his post he contended there was the position of pastor and said the evidence was obvious to anyone who reads the NT. Furthermore, he states the Apostle Paul was called to the ministry of pastor.

There are two questions which arise from his answer.
What is the same and what is the difference between the position of apostle and pastor –- specifically in the cases of the Apostles Paul and Peter. Using the passage posted by Baruch in John 21 is an appropriate place to start examining the roles of the Apostle Peter.

Concerning the use of a title before ones name, Lou continues the points he made in post #5 under the topic “COULD THIS be OUR MOST CRITICAL NEED?” However, the question of this topic did not ask about the use of titles before names but about a position of ministry or service referred to as pastor in the New Testament. Lou contends Christian humans should not use titles which indicate their ministry or service before their names.

Baruch makes excellent points about the use of titles.
Lou's objection to titles might be about those who use them so as to claim a superior position in the congregation or a superior claim to a greater spirituality. In either case the base issue might be about authority and power.

The issue of claiming a superior position in the congregation or denomination deals with ecclesiastical polity (church government) and can be examined under bishops and elders. The issue of claiming a greater spirituality can be examined under prophets. The question of a pending post, "Was the bishop a position in the churches in the age of New Testament?”" is close to being ready to post.

Glen asks What is the same and what is the difference between the position of apostle and pastor

We can all read about Paul and certainly know that The Lord called him to the ministry of an apostle.

BUT would anyone claim that Paul did not also fulfill the ministry of a teacher. I would say he was one of the best teachers among mere men. Of course it was The Teacher, The Holy Spirit teaching us all through Paul.

Would anyone say that Paul was not one who cared for the sheep of The Lord. Certainly Paul was called to the ministry of a pastor.

One would have be blind not to see that Paul certainly was called to the ministry of an evangelist.

Considering the great revelation Paul received from The Lord, Paul was certainly called to the ministry of a prophet.

[glen smith]

Lou you are identifying the Apostle Paul as an apostle, teacher, evangelist, prophet, and pastor.

The intended question asked, “What is the same and what is the difference between the position of apostle and pastor?” Now the question expands to include teacher, evangelist, and prophet. Therefore the question could be restated to include these other ministries (positions or functions).

What is the same and what is the difference between the ministries (positions/functions) of apostle, teacher, evangelist, prophet, and pastor? Missionary might as well be added.

Identified from your post are references to the following positions and my assumptions of how you would determine the ministries (position/function) of the Apostle Paul. Of course, each raises additional questions.

Pastor: The Apostle Paul cared for the sheep in person and through the epistles.
Were all the apostles care takers or pastors of the converts?
Were there pastors who were not apostles and if so, what were their ministries?

Teacher: The epistles of the Apostle Paul contain teaching.
Were all the apostles teachers?
Were there teachers who were not apostles and if so, what were their ministries?

Evangelist: From the Book of Acts much of what the Apostle Paul did was evangelism.
Were all the apostles evangelist?
Were there evangelists who were not apostles and if so, what were their ministries?

Prophet: The Apostle Paul’s prophetic vision saw the coming of Christ and the new heaven and the new earth.
Were all the apostles prophets?
Were there prophets who were not apostles and if so, what were their ministries?

Added by Glen.
Missionary: Starting with chapter 18 the Book of Acts details the Apostle Paul’'s missionary journeys.
Were all the apostles missionaries?
Were there missionaries who were not apostles and if so, what were their ministries?

However, it is only a reply comparing the functions of a pastor and apostle which was the original question and remains the issue concerning the biblical aspect for understanding the Greek word poimenas as used in Ephesians 4:11.

There is not any intent to claim the Apostle Paul did not function as a missionary, teacher, evangelist, prophet, and pastor. It is apparent that each of these was included in the ministry of the Apostle Paul.

The original question is to identify which of these ministries belong to the position of apostleship and which to the position of pastor and if any additional ministries were exclusive to one or the other.
It is from the information available in the Bible that a reply is desired.

[glen smith]

Pastor and Polity

Church government is how the decisions are made in the congregation. Theologically it is labeled polity.

Church Polity (government or leadership) may be simplified to three basic categories or types.
1. Congregationalist or democracy where decisions are made by all eligible members of the congregation.
2. Presbyterian where decisions are made by elders.
3. Episcopalian where decisions are made by bishops.

There are various hierarchies within each of these systems practiced by different denominations. In the Episcopalian system the role of pastor is titled priest who is subject to a bishop. Congregationalist and Presbyterian systems have a pastor that may or may not be the chief. Some Congregationalist systems may not have pastors as it is with the Society of Friends. Baptist polity varies between the Presbyterian model where elders are called deacons and the Congregationalist model where the congregation decides all issues.

What is common for most of these models is the office of pastor.
Is the office of pastor a New Testament position?

A distinction needs to be recognized between a pastoral ministry and the office of a pastor. Without there being any disagreement, it apparent that the ministry of pasturing or shepherding the congregation is observed in the New Testament. A shepherd herds the sheep to graze and to water. He protects the sheep from wild animals and prevents rustling. He assists in lambing and treats injury and illness. He retrieves the stray sheep. These duties of a shepherd may be assumed to be analogous to the shepherd of the congregation or to the person who is the pastor.

English has evolved the word pastor from the duties of the shepherd who tends the sheep in the pasture; therefore, pastor for a shepherd. However, in the Greek New Testament the word poimenas never makes this evolution away from the meaning of a shepherd to become a new word for an office of the church. From the simple observation of the Greek text, in every occurrence of poimenas the meaning remains shepherd. In some English translations where poimenas is translated pastor it is because of tradition rather than definition. The English word pastor does not seem to be a correct translation for poimenas and should not be considered a biblical office of the church as established in the New Testament.

On the other hand, might the position of pastor be justified from tradition? This question becomes one of polity. If the believer believes it is important to follow the New Testament model for church polity, then it should be determined what that polity is and if the position of pastor is part of that polity. However, if the believer considers tradition and practice is developed under the Holy Spirit, then it is a straight forward justification for the office of pastor.