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What is it that Everlasting Father cannot mean in Isaiah 9:6?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Lou Newton View Post

    Glen, The Holy Spirit is capable of communicating with anyone who truly humbles themselves before Him and seeks to know The Truth. No one is able to go back in time to the days the Scriptures were written even though some claim to know what they meant by their words. A great amount of study can help a person to understand, BUT it is NOT the key to understanding the scriptures.

    I have found that the key is to confess to The Lord Jesus that one is blind and can not see. Jesus gave every person who did this sight in the days He walked the earth and this is still true today.

    So while you claim a superior position by your great study of church history and church doctrine, I do not accept that you are in a superior position at all. I am blind, deaf and lame and confess this to The Lord Jesus every day. I have seen great mysteries that I thought I would never be able to know the secret to. But in confessing this inability to The Lord, He often simply revealed the mystery to me shortly thereafter. Over the many years I have learned to know His voice after testing it many, many times.

    The Lord Jesus has also proven to me that He is who He is and that I know Him by performing many miracles and healings. I can not doubt His voice after He has proven a truth to me many times over. To do so would be sin.

    While you do respond to my posts, you do not seem to know the way a discussion should be carried on. You have posted points and I have responded to those very points and passages that you posted. But you then respond by often ignoring many of my points and passages and post a large amount of copy and paste information. My points and passages get buried in the great amount of info you post. A discussion takes place when one person makes a point and then another answers that very point.

    I do not want to talk about church history ( which is the history of men ) or church doctrine (which is the beliefs of men). I will discuss the Holy Scriptures with you IF you keep the discussion to the Holy Scriptures.

    Here is a passage I have posted many times in lately in these threads and you ignore it and do not answer it:

    Isaiah 43
    10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord,
    “and my servant whom I have chosen,
    so that you may know and believe me
    and understand that I am he.
    Before me no god was formed,
    nor will there be one after me.

    11 I, even I, am the Lord,
    and apart from me there is no savior.

    The Lord declares that Israel is His witness and also His servant who He has chosen is His Witness. ( That Servant of course being Christ)

    But The Lord goes on to say that He is that servant when He says, I am he.

    But then The Lord goes on in case we missed His point and says this:

    Before me no god was formed,
    nor will there be one after me.


    That is very clear to me because I have no prejudice of accepting church doctrine to overcome and change what the Lord clearly says.

    BUT The Lord tells the reader the THIRD time in case they still missed His point:

    1 I, even I, am the Lord,
    and apart from me there is no savior.

    You might be able to wiggle out of this passage, but I could not do so. It was this passage and many others that reveal the same thing that forced me to walk almost alone and go against the popular opinion of men and choose to believe God instead of men. I feared to do so because I knew it would bring much shunning from others. But The Lord left me no choice if I was to follow Him instead of men.

    When I did believe Him, He rewarded me by appearing to me in my living room and touched me 5 times and healed a painful issue with each touch. Many times I chose to believe Him instead of men and He would touch me or preform a miracle for me. He has healed broken bones, and a fever of 105 in an instant with His touch. So I get no credit for believing Him, because I have been fearful,and cowardly, but He has extended mercy and grace to me to cause me to follow Him. The Lord gets all the credit for being full of mercy and grace.

    So this passage also means exactly what is written:

    Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, and unto us a Son is given: and the government is upon his shoulder, and he shall call his name, Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The prince of peace.

    God is not trying to confuse us. He tells us to call no man father, and He would not then call someone Father who was not.

    But there are many passages that reveal this truth to us:

    6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

    8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

    9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father.

    This is not a play on words, Jesus is the Truth and can not be misleading. Jesus meant exactly whatHe said.

    Mark 12: 29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.

    This is no some mystical verse that no one can understand unless they study for decades about church history and know Hebrew. It means what is clearly said.

    Now there are numerous passages that may sound like they disagree with these passages. But that is ridiculous, because it is NOT which verse is true, but all are true.

    These passages can be understood by simply being aware that Jesus is both fully The One and Only God Almighty AND fully a man.

    As a man Jesus is lower than the angels, as God Almighty He is the Creator of everything that exists, the First and The Last, The Lord of all lords, The Name that is above all names.

    Please respond to this passage that I have posted many times:

    Isaiah 43
    10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord,
    “and my servant whom I have chosen,
    so that you may know and believe me
    and understand that I am he.
    Before me no god was formed,
    nor will there be one after me.

    11 I, even I, am the Lord,
    and apart from me there is no savior.
    Your comments are received with consideration.

    You also asked for a response to Isaiah 43:10-11.

    Glen Comments on Isaiah 43:10-11
    Israel is the witnesses and the chosen servant of YHWH.
    Israel is chosen so that they can know and believe in YHWH.
    Israel is chosen so that they can understand that YHWH did this thing to them.
    Israel will understand to faces of YHWH not formed and after YHWH not become.
    Apart from YHWH there is none saving.

    A number of Old Testament Messianic prophecies are understood as a secondary revelation to the referenced history of the passage. Because some of the historical application does not apply to the Messiah, such passages may use only scattered parts from the passages as referencing the messiah. The passage must be quoted in the New Testament if the passage is to be verified as a Messianic prophecy. Even then, it is often the LXX which is quoted because the allegorical nature of the LXX is required to reveal the Messianic aspect of the passage.

    If I have not previously communicated with you about a passage, not commenting on a passage is usually because I do not see that the passage is a usable support for your position.
    Last edited by glen smith; March 7th, 2018, 02:19 AM.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by glen smith View Post

      Your comments are received with consideration.

      You also asked for a response to Isaiah 43:10-11.

      Glen Comments on Isaiah 43:10-11
      Israel is the witnesses and the chosen servant of YHWH.
      Israel is chosen so that they can know and believe in YHWH.
      Israel is chosen so that they can understand that YHWH did this thing to them.
      Israel will understand to faces of YHWH not formed and after YHWH not become.
      Apart from YHWH there is none saving.

      A number of Old Testament Messianic prophecies are understood as a secondary revelation to the referenced history of the passage. Because some of the historical application does not apply to the Messiah, such passages may use only scattered parts from the passages as referencing the messiah. The passage must be quoted in the New Testament if the passage is to be verified as a Messianic prophecy. Even then, it is often the LXX which is quoted because the allegorical nature of the LXX is required to reveal the Messianic aspect of the passage.

      If I have not previously communicated with you about a passage, not commenting on a passage is usually because I do not see that the passage is a usable support for your position.
      Glen,

      Isaiah 43
      10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord,
      “and my servant whom I have chosen,
      so that you may know and believe me
      and understand that I am he.
      Before me no god was formed,
      nor will there be one after me.

      11 I, even I, am the Lord,
      and apart from me there is no savior.

      The Lord mentions Israel as one witness, but the law of God requires two witnesses. The servant God has chosen can not be Israel because God goes on to say, I am he. God is that chosen servant, which is the Christ.

      But the rest of the passge supports this position:

      Before me no god was formed,
      nor will there be one after me.

      There are not three God's but God is the One and Only God as he clearly says here.


      11 I, even I, am the Lord,
      and apart from me there is no savior.

      But how could God be any clearer than this. He is the One and Only Savior.

      Comment


      • #33
        Sorry, to me you reason from your predetermined doctrine rather than from scripture.

        Comment


        • #34
          Glen wrote:
          Sorry, to me you reason from your predetermined doctrine rather than from scripture.
          Glen my position could not be predetermined, for I assumed the Trinity position was correct when I was first saved. It was the Holy Scriptures that changed my position when I read them. After much prayer I was able to accept what they clearly stated over the doctrine and traditions of men.

          Glen you continue to claim that when Jesus said God is One, that One does not mean one, and it was not the number one; but I can post numerous passages where God says there is one God and One Man, Christ. And it was that man who gave His life for our ransom.

          Strongs says that ONE used in those passages is the number one.



          1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
          1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
          1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
          1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.



          1Ti 2:3 ForG1063 thisG5124 is goodG2570 andG2532 acceptableG587 in the sightG1799 of GodG2316 ourG2257 Saviour;G4990
          1Ti 2:4 WhoG3739 willG2309 have allG3956 menG444 to be saved,G4982 andG2532 to comeG2064 untoG1519 the knowledgeG1922 of the truth.G225
          1Ti 2:5 ForG1063 there is oneG1520 God,G2316 andG2532 oneG1520 mediatorG3316 between GodG2316 andG2532 men,G444 the manG444 ChristG5547 Jesus;G2424
          1Ti 2:6 Who gaveG1325 himselfG1438 a ransomG487 forG5228 all,G3956 to be testifiedG3142 in dueG2398 time.G2540

          G1520

          εἷς
          heis
          hice
          (Including the neuter [etc.] ἕν hen); a primary numeral; one: - a (-n, -ny, certain), + abundantly, man, one (another), only, other, some. See also G1527, G3367, G3391, G3762.
          Total KJV occurrences: 272
          Last edited by Lou Newton; March 9th, 2018, 09:28 AM.

          Comment


          • #35
            Glen wrote:
            Sorry, to me you reason from your predetermined doctrine rather than from scripture.
            Originally posted by Lou Newton View Post
            Glen wrote:

            Glen my position could not be predetermined, for I assumed the Trinity position was correct when I was first saved. It was the Holy Scriptures that changed my position when I read them. After much prayer I was able to accept what they clearly stated over the doctrine and traditions of men.

            Glen you continue to claim that when Jesus said God is One, that One does not mean one, and it was not the number one; but I can post numerous passages where God says there is one God and One Man, Christ. And it was that man who gave His life for our ransom.

            Strongs says that ONE used in those passages is the number one.



            1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
            1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
            1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
            1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.



            1Ti 2:3 ForG1063 thisG5124 is goodG2570 andG2532 acceptableG587 in the sightG1799 of GodG2316 ourG2257 Saviour;G4990
            1Ti 2:4 WhoG3739 willG2309 have allG3956 menG444 to be saved,G4982 andG2532 to comeG2064 untoG1519 the knowledgeG1922 of the truth.G225
            1Ti 2:5 ForG1063 there is oneG1520 God,G2316 andG2532 oneG1520 mediatorG3316 between GodG2316 andG2532 men,G444 the manG444 ChristG5547 Jesus;G2424
            1Ti 2:6 Who gaveG1325 himselfG1438 a ransomG487 forG5228 all,G3956 to be testifiedG3142 in dueG2398 time.G2540

            G1520

            εἷς
            heis
            hice
            (Including the neuter [etc.] ἕν hen); a primary numeral; one: - a (-n, -ny, certain), + abundantly, man, one (another), only, other, some. See also G1527, G3367, G3391, G3762.
            Total KJV occurrences: 272

            Comment


            • #36
              Glen writes:
              He is the only God of Israel is a better understanding of what the ancient Hebrew means.
              Glen you claim that when Jesus said the most important command of God was that The Lord your God is one; Jesus did not mean the number ONE, but meant that God is the ONLY God of Israel.

              Now first of all, I have already pointed out that the word ONLY is an adverb having to do with ONE. For God to be the ONLY God of Israel, there can only be ONE God. Not two or three.

              But I have also posted a passage along with the Strongs that shows that God says there is but ONE ( meaning the number one) God.

              Here are a few more:
              Joshua 22:22
              “The Mighty One, God, the Lord! The Mighty One, God, the Lord! He knows! And let Israel know! If this has been in rebellion or disobedience to the Lord, do not spare us this day.
              Psalm 50:1
              [ Psalm 50 ] [ A psalm of Asaph. ] The Mighty One, God, the Lord, speaks and summons the earth from the rising of the sun to where it sets.
              Malachi 2:10
              [ Breaking Covenant Through Divorce ] Do we not all have one Father? Did not one God create us? Why do we profane the covenant of our ancestors by being unfaithful to one another?
              Malachi 2:15
              Has not the one God made you? You belong to him in body and spirit. And what does the one God seek? Godly offspring. So be on your guard, and do not be unfaithful to the wife of your youth.
              Romans 3:30
              since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.
              1 Corinthians 8:6
              yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
              Ephesians 4:6
              one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
              1 Timothy 2:5
              For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,
              James 2:19
              You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

              Jas 2:19 ThouG4771 believestG4100 thatG3754 there isG2076 oneG1520 God;G2316 thou doestG4160 well:G2573 theG3588 devilsG1140 alsoG2532 believe,G4100 andG2532 tremble.G5425
              Strong
              G1520

              εἷς
              heis
              hice
              (Including the neuter [etc.] ἕν hen); a primary numeral; one: - a (-n, -ny, certain), + abundantly, man, one (another), only, other, some. See also G1527, G3367, G3391, G3762.
              Total KJV occurrences: 272
              Will you now admit that you were in error about this. That when God says He is one, He is referring to the number one.

              This would bring up this question: Why does God ( who is perfect and complete in everything He says and does) say there is ONE God and not that God is Triune ?

              Is God confused, or trying to confuse us, or are many men confused ?

              Have mere men been able to add to what God said and improve on the words of God by coming up with the word Triune.

              Comment


              • #37
                Lou,
                I believe that there is one God and no more. But I don't think it's 3 but many different representations that make up the One living God of creation. I don't think we can restrict Him to anything or a finite number. He is the ruler of all things and He can do anything He wants yet He is very kind and generous with us. We may only know that which He allows us to know. It's an old subject but we know as much as He reveals to us.
                It's not what we know, but what we don't know. Blessings...... Steve
                ​​​​​​

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Steve Hollander View Post
                  Lou,
                  I believe that there is one God and no more. But I don't think it's 3 but many different representations that make up the One living God of creation. I don't think we can restrict Him to anything or a finite number. He is the ruler of all things and He can do anything He wants yet He is very kind and generous with us. We may only know that which He allows us to know. It's an old subject but we know as much as He reveals to us.
                  It's not what we know, but what we don't know. Blessings...... Steve
                  ​​​​​​
                  Hi Steve, Thanks for your reply.

                  I agree that there is one God as the scriptures state. You are correct He has many Names, ( that stand for His many natures). But we can believe what God tells us in the Holy Scriptures and whatever He reveals to us, Himself.

                  I have never had The Lord back down from even one thing that He has revealed to me. He often reveals more depth about that subject as times goes on, but the new revelations never make the earlier ones wrong, only more depth.

                  BUT I have often taken His revelations further and found myself wrong later. What I mean by that is, if God told me that, then He must also mean this, but found my assumptions to be wrong later. But the original revelation has never once been wrong. It always stands the test of time.

                  We can say that God has said there are seven spirits of God. Those seven spirits are not seven persons, but seven different natures of God. He appears as The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit, but He is the same person, or the same One God. The other four spirits are the 4 different natures of the ways God works. That is the Lion, The Ox, The Man and The Eagle. As The Lion He is the King and Warrior who comes to save. As the Ox He is the Servant of man. As The Eagle, He is The Almighty who is high above us and can see us, but we can not comprehend Him. As the The Man He is God who came down from heaven to be born of a virgin to show us how to live, reveal the nature of God to us, and shed His blood for our sins.

                  I like you do not find this hard to understand. I am only a puny human, and I am a son, a brother, and a father . I am not three different persons, but one person and all of me is in each one of these three.

                  But you are correct that God has many many Names ( natures ) and He lists many of these in His Holy Scriptures. I do not think anyone can put a limit on those Names. In fact when Jesus returns He will have a New Name that no one but Him knows at this time. Think of that, a whole new nature that not one of us even has a clue about.

                  I hope you are doing well.
                  Last edited by Lou Newton; March 11th, 2018, 09:22 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    The Lord did not inspire the Holy Scriptures to be written in language that only the super educated could understand.

                    It is true that the Holy Scriptures have been translated into English and other languages. But God is still God, and able to guide the thoughts of translators as well; the same way He says He is able to guide the thoughts of Kings like He guides the course of rivers.

                    While it is true that no one can truly understand the Holy Scriptures without the help of His Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is capable of causing anyone who seeks the truth to have the truth revealed to them. In fact this is a promise from The Lord:

                    Jer 29

                    13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. 14 I will be found by you,” declares the Lord, “and will bring you back from captivity.

                    Matthew 7

                    7 “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.

                    The key is NOT how educated a person is, but is their heart seeking the Lord.

                    The Pharisees were the most educated of the men of all Israel. But The Lord Jesus chose fishermen and tax collectors instead.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Notice how one is used in this passage. Does one mean the numerical number of one unit?
                      John 17:20-23 New International Version (NIV)
                      20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Different men have their own body, soul and spirit. Even husband and wife ( which some say are one) do not share a spirit.

                        A father and son do not share a spirit, but each has their own spirit.

                        Every person has their own spirit. The word person, has to do with personality.

                        My spirit is my very essence and we are born again by a rebirth of our spirit.

                        Romans 8

                        9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness.

                        Other passages call the Holy Spirit , the Holy Spirit of the Father.

                        If the Father and Christ have the same Holy Spirit they are the same person.

                        This is agreed on by Isaiah 9

                        6 For unto us a child is born, and unto us a Son is given: and the government is upon his shoulder, and he shall call his name, Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The prince of peace.

                        God calls the child, Jesus, The Everlasting Father because The Father came down from heaven and was born of a woman to become a man and save us from our sins.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          It is obvious you have not read the Romans commentaries by H. Wheeler Robinson or done an comprehensive study of the meaning of spirit.

                          So you will not need to make a rebuttal I will make them for you.

                          1. Glen you claim I (Lou) would do well to study the words of men to be able to understand the words of God. That is hogwash.
                          We have but one teacher and that is the Holy Spirit. Who better to teach us the meaning of His words than God Himself.

                          2. I (Lou) care not what mere men say or believe, for God tells us that all men are lairs. To preserve their doctrines and what they have taught they will claim that what they say is true and what God says is not true. The words that God says are totally true. He is The Truth and can not lie.

                          3. I (Lou) do not want to talk about church history ( which is the history of men ) or church doctrine (which is the beliefs of men). I will discuss the Holy Scriptures with you IF you keep the discussion to the Holy Scriptures.

                          4. The Lord did not inspire the Holy Scriptures to be written in language that only the super educated could understand.

                          Accordingly, anything H. Wheeler Robinson wrote, such words being the super educated words of men, must be hogwash, a lie, and part of Church history.

                          Anything Lou writes is not the super educated words of men, hogwash, a lie, or part of the history of the Church.

                          Is there anything left for me to contend?
                          Last edited by glen smith; March 13th, 2018, 10:43 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by glen smith View Post
                            It is obvious you have not read the Romans commentaries by H. Wheeler Robinson or done an comprehensive study of the meaning of spirit.

                            So you will not need to make a rebuttal I will make them for you.

                            1. Glen you claim I (Lou) would do well to study the words of men to be able to understand the words of God. That is hogwash.
                            We have but one teacher and that is the Holy Spirit. Who better to teach us the meaning of His words than God Himself.

                            2. I (Lou) care not what mere men say or believe, for God tells us that all men are lairs. To preserve their doctrines and what they have taught they will claim that what they say is true and what God says is not true. The words that God says are totally true. He is The Truth and can not lie.

                            3. I (Lou) do not want to talk about church history ( which is the history of men ) or church doctrine (which is the beliefs of men). I will discuss the Holy Scriptures with you IF you keep the discussion to the Holy Scriptures.

                            4. The Lord did not inspire the Holy Scriptures to be written in language that only the super educated could understand.

                            Accordingly, anything H. Wheeler Robinson wrote, such words being the super educated words of men, must be hogwash, a lie, and part of Church history.

                            Anything Lou writes is not the super educated words of men, hogwash, a lie, or part of the history of the Church.

                            Is there anything left for me to contend?
                            Glen, what we say means little. But I have based my whole argument on what the Holy Scriptures state. Certainly what God states in His Holy Scriptures is truth.

                            Isaiah 9

                            6 For unto us a child is born, and unto us a Son is given: and the government is upon his shoulder, and he shall call his name, Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The prince of peace.

                            Comment

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