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A mystery -was it important that men were able to recognize The Lord in the OT

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  • A mystery -was it important that men were able to recognize The Lord in the OT

    1 - If God threw Satan out of heaven, how did Satan then appear before God in Job's lifetime ?

    No sin is allowed into heaven. Satan is the father of lies. Certainly then Satan would not be allowed into heaven.

    If we examine the way Satan talked to God in Job, we can certainly see that Satan had already rebelled against God.

    So this conversation with God, in Job, took place after Satan was thrown out of heaven.

    Jesus calls heaven paradise. So there certainly is no sin in paradise. Yet Satan is totally sinful.

    So certainly Satan would not be allowed back into heaven after God had thrown him out. God does not change his mind, or repent.

    So how did the conversation between God and Satan take place in Job? We know The Holy Scriptures are true.
    Last edited by Lou Newton; April 22nd, 2018, 09:53 AM.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Lou Newton View Post
    1 - If God threw Satan out of heaven, how did Satan then appear before God in Job's lifetime ?

    No sin is allowed into heaven. Satan is the father of lies. Certainly then Satan would not be allowed into heaven.

    If we examine the way Satan talked to God in Job, we can certainly see that Satan had already rebelled against God.

    So this conversation with God, in Job, took place after Satan was thrown out of heaven.

    Jesus calls heaven paradise. So there certainly is no sin in paradise. Yet Satan is totally sinful.

    So certainly Satan would not be allowed back into heaven after God had thrown him out. God does not change his mind, or repent.

    So how did the conversation between God and Satan take place in Job? We know The Holy Scriptures are true.
    The only other option is God sought Satan out on earth.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by redsoxmaloney View Post

      The only other option is God sought Satan out on earth.
      Very good reasoning Tom. That is the only other option. God met Satan here on the earth.

      Can anyone post scriptures that would give evidence that God came to this earth in the OT ?

      Comment


      • #4
        Genesis 1 (NIV)

        The Beginning


        1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
        We know that heaven ( that is the 3rd heaven where God's throne is located) has always existed and the universe had a beginning. So heaven is not in this universe. So God was here in this world when He created it.

        Also notice that God created and made everything that existed in this world, He did not send angels to do it. He was personally involved.

        Genesis 2 (NIV)


        2 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.

        2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.
        Again God did all this work Himself.

        7 Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
        Notice God personally formed the man and BREATHED the breath of life into man.

        15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”
        Notice that The Lord God spoke to the man Himself. God did not send an angel to speak to Adam.

        8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the Lord God called to the man, “Where are you?”

        10 He answered, “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.”

        11 And he said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?”

        12 The man said, “The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it.”

        13 Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”

        The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”

        14 So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,

        “Cursed are you above all livestock
        and all wild animals!
        You will crawl on your belly
        and you will eat dust
        all the days of your life.
        15 And I will put enmity
        between you and the woman,
        and between your offspring and hers;
        he will crush your head,
        and you will strike his heel.”

        16To the woman he said,

        “I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
        with painful labor you will give birth to children.
        Your desire will be for your husband,
        and he will rule over you.”

        17To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’

        “Cursed is the ground because of you;
        through painful toil you will eat food from it
        all the days of your life.
        18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
        and you will eat the plants of the field.
        19 By the sweat of your brow
        you will eat your food
        until you return to the ground,
        since from it you were taken;
        for dust you are
        and to dust you will return.”
        So God set a precedent of walking with mankind and speaking to mankind personally.

        But God was here on this earth.
        Last edited by Lou Newton; April 19th, 2018, 04:08 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Genesis 4 (NIV)

          Cain and Abel

          4 Adam made love to his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain. She said, “With the help of the Lord I have brought forth a man.” 2 Later she gave birth to his brother Abel.

          Now Abel kept flocks, and Cain worked the soil. 3 In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the Lord.4 And Abel also brought an offering—fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The Lord looked with favor on Abel and his offering, 5 but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry, and his face was downcast.
          Now how did Cain and Abel know to bring sacrifices to The Lord ? They had no Bible to read. The Lord had to speak to them.

          6Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”

          8 Now Cain said to his brother Abel, “Let’s go out to the field.” While they were in the field, Cain attacked his brother Abel and killed him.

          9Then the Lord said to Cain, “Where is your brother Abel?”

          “I don’t know,” he replied. “Am I my brother’s keeper?”

          10 The Lord said, “What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood cries out to me from the ground. 11 Now you are under a curse and driven from the ground, which opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand. 12 When you work the ground, it will no longer yield its crops for you. You will be a restless wanderer on the earth.”

          13 Cain said to the Lord, “My punishment is more than I can bear.14 Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.”

          15But the Lord said to him, “Not so; anyone who kills Cain will suffer vengeance seven times over.” Then the Lord put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him. 16 So Cain went out from the Lord’s presence and lived in the land of Nod, east of Eden.
          So we see that The Lord spoke to Cain. The Lord was on the earth speaking to His people.

          17 Cain made love to his wife, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Enoch. Cain was then building a city, and he named it after his sonEnoch. 18 To Enoch was born Irad, and Irad was the father of Mehujael, and Mehujael was the father of Methushael, and Methushael was the father of Lamech.

          19 Lamech married two women, one named Adah and the other Zillah.20 Adah gave birth to Jabal; he was the father of those who live in tents and raise livestock. 21 His brother’s name was Jubal; he was the father of all who play stringed instruments and pipes. 22 Zillah also had a son, Tubal-Cain, who forged all kinds of tools out of bronze and iron. Tubal-Cain’s sister was Naamah.

          23 Lamech said to his wives,

          “Adah and Zillah, listen to me;
          wives of Lamech, hear my words.
          I have killed a man for wounding me,
          a young man for injuring me.
          24 If Cain is avenged seven times,
          then Lamech seventy-seven times.”

          25 Adam made love to his wife again, and she gave birth to a son and named him Seth, saying, “God has granted me another child in place of Abel, since Cain killed him.” 26 Seth also had a son, and he named him Enosh.

          At that time people began to call on the name of the Lord.

          Comment


          • #6
            Genesis 5 YLT

            21
            And Enoch liveth five and sixty years, and begetteth Methuselah.

            22 And Enoch walketh habitually with God after his begetting Methuselah three hundred years, and begetteth sons and daughters.

            23 And all the days of Enoch are three hundred and sixty and five years.

            24 And Enoch walketh habitually with God, and he is not, for God hath taken him.
            We have reason to believe that walketh with God, means Enoch physically walked with God, because Adam, Eve, Cain and Abel all walked and talked with God physically.

            Comment


            • #7
              8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord. Noah and the Flood


              9 This is the account of Noah and his family.

              Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God. 10 Noah had three sons: Shem, Ham and Japheth.
              There is only one way to be blameless to The Lord, and that is to trust Him to save you. Noah walked with God. Does this mean in the physical, or in the Spirit ? If, in the Spirit ,than Noah must have been alive in the Spirit, and had to be born again in the Spirit. If ,in the natural, then God had to walk with Noah on the earth.

              11 Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence.12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. 13 So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth. 14 So make yourself an ark of cypress wood; make rooms in it and coat it with pitch inside and out. 15 This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be three hundred cubits long, fifty cubits wide and thirty cubits high.16 Make a roof for it, leaving below the roof an opening one cubit high all around. Put a door in the side of the ark and make lower, middle and upper decks. 17 I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish. 18 But I will establish my covenant with you, and you will enter the ark—you and your sons and your wife and your sons’ wives with you. 19 You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you.20 Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive.21 You are to take every kind of food that is to be eaten and store it away as food for you and for them.”

              22 Noah did everything just as God commanded him.
              This is a very long and detailed command. Could you hear this kind of command in the spirit and then work for 120 years to obey it. Could you be that sure that it was from God ? Of course God can give a man faith and also speak in a way that you are sure it was Him.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Lou Newton View Post

                Very good reasoning Tom. That is the only other option. God met Satan here on the earth.

                Can anyone post scriptures that would give evidence that God came to this earth in the OT ?
                I'll have to figure out how to do that here; just attach file? Copy paste? It says in judges he talked to Gideon. Did he not also talk to Samson's parents in judges? The times he talked to Abraham. He appeared in Daniel to the 3 men in the fire. I'm sure there are more.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Lou Newton View Post

                  There is only one way to be blameless to The Lord, and that is to trust Him to save you. Noah walked with God. Does this mean in the physical, or in the Spirit ? If, in the Spirit ,than Noah must have been alive in the Spirit, and had to be born again in the Spirit. If ,in the natural, then God had to walk with Noah on the earth.



                  This is a very long and detailed command. Could you hear this kind of command in the spirit and then work for 120 years to obey it. Could you be that sure that it was from God ? Of course God can give a man faith and also speak in a way that you are sure it was Him.
                  I totally missed the thought that God walked with Enoch just like with Abraham. I would say that for noah, as well as the others, he walked with him naturally and spiritually.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by redsoxmaloney View Post

                    I totally missed the thought that God walked with Enoch just like with Abraham. I would say that for noah, as well as the others, he walked with him naturally and spiritually.
                    Thanks for the reply Tom.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      The Pharisees ( the majority of them) believed The Holy Scriptures were from God. They studied them diligently ( as Jesus even said). They memorized whole books of the OT. They believed there was One and Only One God and they believed The Holy Scriptures were from Him. They also believed in the Messiah.

                      But Jesus said this about them:

                      John 8
                      42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me.43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!
                      They did not believe Jesus because He told the Truth.

                      John 5

                      36 “I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to finish—the very works that I am doing—testify that the Father has sent me. 37 And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38 nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. 39You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
                      So claiming to believe The Bible and in One God does not give one life. NOTICE they had never heard His voice or seen His form. Adam, Able, Enoch, and Noah had all heard His voice and seen His form.

                      Also we can see from what Jesus said in this passage that the claim that God only speaks through the Bible is false. For Jesus said that studying the scriptures diligently will NOT bring forth life. Jesus also mentions that the Pharisees ( who did not have God as their Father) had never heard His voice or seen His form.

                      So what does give one Life ?
                      Last edited by Lou Newton; April 23rd, 2018, 11:33 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by redsoxmaloney View Post

                        I'll have to figure out how to do that here; just attach file? Copy paste? It says in judges he talked to Gideon. Did he not also talk to Samson's parents in judges? The times he talked to Abraham. He appeared in Daniel to the 3 men in the fire. I'm sure there are more.
                        Tom, you can go to "Biblegateway" and copy and paste the passage you want to post.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by redsoxmaloney View Post

                          I totally missed the thought that God walked with Enoch just like with Abraham. I would say that for noah, as well as the others, he walked with him naturally and spiritually.
                          Many claim that no one was born again until Jesus died on the cross. BUT The Lord says this in The Revelation 13:

                          8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.
                          God exists outside of time. God created space-time in the beginning. God has always existed and has no beginning or end. So as far as man can see, Jesus died 2000 years ago. But as far as God can see, Jesus was slain from the creation of the world.

                          God's promises are eternal and will never pass away. Thy reach into the future and also into the past.

                          1 John 1

                          5This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

                          8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.
                          So God promises that if anyone walks in the light, as Jesus walked in the light, they have fellowship with Him and they are purified from all sin.

                          9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. - This promise from God is eternal and is for ALL men. Anyone who confesses their sin will be forgiven and God will purify them from sin.

                          This is how the men of the OT walked with God. They confessed their sin and even made sacrifices for their sin. The blood of bulls or sheep can not cleanse a man of sin. But the sacrifice was to prepare the heart of the sinner. When he seen that something innocent had to die for his sin, that was to bring sorrow for his sin. It was also a shadow of Jesus shedding His blood on the cross. God could see Jesus on the cross from the beginning, but men could not.

                          Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God.
                          The only way for man to be blameless before God is to be covered with the blood of Jesus. There is no other way. Jesus made that every clear. What is impossible with man, is possible with God.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I wrote in post # 7:


                            8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord. Noah and the Flood


                            9 This is the account of Noah and his family.

                            Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God. 10Noah had three sons: Shem, Ham and Japheth.
                            There is only one way to be blameless to The Lord, and that is to trust Him to save you. Noah walked with God. Does this mean in the physical, or in the Spirit ? If, in the Spirit ,than Noah must have been alive in the Spirit, and had to be born again in the Spirit. If ,in the natural, then God had to walk with Noah on the earth.

                            11 Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence.12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. 13 So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth. 14 So make yourself an ark of cypress wood; make rooms in it and coat it with pitch inside and out. 15 This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be three hundred cubits long, fifty cubits wide and thirty cubits high.16 Make a roof for it, leaving below the roof an opening one cubit high all around. Put a door in the side of the ark and make lower, middle and upper decks. 17 I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish. 18 But I will establish my covenant with you, and you will enter the ark—you and your sons and your wife and your sons’ wives with you. 19 You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you.20 Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive.21 You are to take every kind of food that is to be eaten and store it away as food for you and for them.”

                            22 Noah did everything just as God commanded him.
                            This is a very long and detailed command. Could you hear this kind of command in the spirit and then work for 120 years to obey it. Could you be that sure that it was from God ? Of course God can give a man faith and also speak in a way that you are sure it was Him.
                            Now I ask, was it important that men, who claimed to follow God, were able to recognize Him when He appeared to them ?

                            If Noah was not able to recognize the Lord, when He appeared to him, to give Noah His commands to build the Ark, none of us would be here. Noah would not have known to build the Ark and certainly could not have been sure that it was a command from God to do so.

                            No one ever had to tell me when my earthly father appeared to me, that it was him. I KNEW MY FATHER. How can anyone obey The Lord's commands if they do not know when He appears to them, or speaks to them ?

                            Is it important that we are able to recognize The Lord when He appears ? Jesus appeared the Pharisees. Those that recognized Jesus as their Lord were saved. Those that did not recognize their Lord went to destruction. Those that did not know Him were the very ones who insisted that Pilate have Jesus crucified.

                            This is what Jesus told those who did not recognize who He was:

                            John 8
                            42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me.43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!
                            There was no preacher to tell Noah the person who appeared to him was The Lord. Noah knew The Lord and so knew Him when He appeared to him.
                            Last edited by Lou Newton; May 18th, 2018, 10:17 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Genesis 12 (NIV)

                              The Call of Abram

                              12 The Lord had said to Abram, “Go from your country, your people and your father’s household to the land I will show you.

                              2 “I will make you into a great nation,
                              and I will bless you;
                              I will make your name great,
                              and you will be a blessing.
                              3 I will bless those who bless you,
                              and whoever curses you I will curse;
                              and all peoples on earth
                              will be blessed through you.”

                              4So Abram went, as the Lord had told him; and Lot went with him. Abram was seventy-five years old when he set out from Harran. 5 He took his wife Sarai, his nephew Lot, all the possessions they had accumulated and the people they had acquired in Harran, and they set out for the land of Canaan, and they arrived there.

                              6 Abram traveled through the land as far as the site of the great tree of Moreh at Shechem. At that time the Canaanites were in the land. 7The Lord appeared to Abram and said, “To your offspring I will give this land.” So he built an altar there to the Lord, who had appeared to him.

                              8 From there he went on toward the hills east of Bethel and pitched his tent, with Bethel on the west and Ai on the east. There he built an altar to the Lord and called on the name of the Lord.
                              Now we know Abraham was saved, because:

                              Romans 10: 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for,Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
                              So Abraham recognized The Lord when he appeared to him because he knew The Lord.

                              Otherwise how would Abraham had the faith to leave everything and everyone in Ur. How would Abraham had the faith to travel so far for so ,long to get to Canaan.

                              Now the question: why did the Lord tell Abraham to leave Ur and travel to Canaan ?

                              Comment

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