Is Jesus a different person than God The Father

[Lou Newton]

Is Jesus a different person than God The Father, or is Jesus and the Father the same person ?

The nature of God is important for us to know Him and who He really is. After all Jesus said this about knowing Him:

Matthew 7 NIV
True and False Disciples

²¹ “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. ²² Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ ²³ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Hebrews 8 NIV

“The days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
⁹ It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.
¹⁰ This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
¹¹ No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
¹²For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”

Knowing The Lord is very important.

[Lou Newton]

Zechariah 12 New International Version (NIV)

Jerusalem’s Enemies to Be Destroyed


12 A prophecy: The word of the Lord concerning Israel.

The Lord, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the human spirit within a person, declares: ² “I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. ³ On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. ⁴ On that day I will strike every horse with panic and its rider with madness,” declares the Lord. “I will keep a watchful eye over Judah, but I will blind all the horses of the nations. ⁵ Then the clans of Judah will say in their hearts, ‘The people of Jerusalem are strong, because the Lord Almighty is their God.’

⁶ “On that day I will make the clans of Judah like a firepot in a woodpile, like a flaming torch among sheaves. They will consume all the surrounding peoples right and left, but Jerusalem will remain intact in her place.

⁷ “The Lord will save the dwellings of Judah first, so that the honor of the house of David and of Jerusalem’s inhabitants may not be greater than that of Judah. ⁸ On that day the Lord will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the Lord going before them. ⁹ On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem.

Mourning for the One They Pierced


¹⁰ “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. ¹¹ On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be as great as the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. ¹² The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, ¹³ the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, ¹⁴ and all the rest of the clans and their wives.

Note: So we see that the Lord of the OT, who is The Father, says He is the one they will pierce. So God our Father is the One that was pierced on the cross. Does that not reveal that God the Father is the one who came down from heaven and was born of a woman to become a man and shed the blood of His human body for our sins ?

[Lou Newton]

I received this email from Glen:

Glen B Smith
To:Lou Newton

Mar 19 at 3:28 PM

Hello brother Lou,

Do not think that there is no disagreement with your In Depth Studies forum post back on November 29, 2018.

Your topic:

Is Jesus a different person than God The Father, or is Jesus and the Father the same person?

Zechariah 12:10 New International Version (NIV)
¹⁰ “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

Your conclusion:

Note: So, we see that the Lord of the OT, who is The Father, says He is the one they will pierce. So, God our Father is the One that was pierced on the cross. Does that not reveal that God the Father is the one who came down from heaven and was born of a woman to become a man and shed the blood of His human body for our sins?

------------

My reply is that you might be correct if there were no other scriptures revealing something other than your conclusion. And you might be correct if Zechariah 12:10 stopped after the word pierced, but it doesn’t.

First, there are a number of passages in the Old Testament where the context has a prophet speaking in the first person (using the pronoun I) but the meaning is attributed to the Messiah in the New Testament. Likewise, there are other passages where the references alternate between YHWH and the Messiah.

Second, in Zechariah 12:10 the speaker YHWH is recorded as saying there is mourning for HIM who is “the one they have pierced.” Since YHWH is speaking the pronoun ought to be ME rather than HIM if your conclusion is correct about this passage. If your conclusion is correct, the part of Zechariah 12:10 following the word pierced should read “and they will mourn for ME (not him) as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for ME (not him) as one grieves for a firstborn son.

NOTE FROM LOU: Your comment does nothing to change the fact that God is the one speaking in this passage and He says "they will look upon ME the one they have pierced".

The prophets lacked understanding about all they recorded. This is just one example why they did not see the Messiah correctly. I strongly doubt that Prophet Zachariah actually believed it was possible for YHWH to be pierced. Furthermore, as the recorder of the words of YHWH rather than the composer of quote claimed to be that of YHWH, the Prophet Zachariah must have been confused about YHWH changing from referring to Himself with the pronouns “I” and “Me” to the use of “him.”

NOTE from Lou: The scriptures were not written by men ( the prophets, but were inspired by God)

Also, the original Hebrew text did not have punctuation, lowercase letters, spaces between words, or vowels. There were no quotation marks. Prophet Zachariah is recording YHWH but provides no indication if YHWH quotes another speaker. Using modern English, the passage might look like this where there is a quote within a quote where YHWH quotes the Messiah:

Zechariah 12:10 NIV

“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication.

‘They will look on me, the one they have pierced,’ (John 19:37)

And they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.”

This makes sense of the use of the pronoun “me” as the Messiah referring to himself and YHWH referring to the Messiah as “him.”

When the Apostle John writes the gospel, he renders this passage from Zechariah 12:10 with the pronoun “him” rather than “me.”

³⁷ And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced. (John 19:37 KJV).

This change of pronoun seems to be evidence that the inspired New Testament Apostle John might have understood Zechariah 12:10 as a quote within a quote or from your perspective that it is YHWH who is pierced. Your view is very special since no one has seen the Father who is spirit (John 4:23-24; 6:46). How does one pierce an un-seeable spirit?

---------

I do not expect to change your mind on this issue but wish to provide you with an alternative perspective so you might realize the issues with your conclusion. However, please forgive me for offending you one more time. You are hindered by your presuppositions about modern philosophical monotheism. Yes, I know you claim to have no presuppositions. Metaphorically, you are describing what you believe while looking through the key hole rather than opening the door to see the whole room – which is picking and choosing scriptures interpreted using modern philosophical monotheism rather than including the entire revelation.



References:

John 4:23-24 NIV

²³ Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. ²⁴ God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

John 6:46 NIV

NOTE FROM LOU: Ist of all Glen you broke the rules of this forum with your post, but I still posted it. Personal attacks are not allowed, we are supposed to attack the ideas presented, NOT the person who presented them.

You write:You are hindered by your presuppositions about modern philosophical monotheism. - dear brother that is a personal attack on my person, NOT the points presented. Also you are judging my heart, which only Jesus can see, let alone judge.

Please address the points presented and NOT my reasons for presenting them, as you can not possible know that. I have never studied, or even read about ,modern philosophical monotheism, so I could not possibly have a presupposition about this.


Are you saying there is more than ONE God ? Can you point to one passage that is in the ancient copies of the Scriptures where God calls Himself three persons ? You seem to be using mere human reasoning in your argument.

Yes, Jesus was BOTH God and Man. But He was not two persons. As a man born of a woman He was fully man and a little lower than the angels. As a man He spoke as man, and so lower, not only than God, but also lower than the angels.

BUT Jesus was also fully God. There is ONE God as Jesus told us and also stated this was the most important command of God. One does not equal two. Jesus was NOT two persons. He was the Only BEGOTTEN Son of God. Begotten means born of a woman. Mary was NOT the mother of God, but she was the mother of His human body only. After all He was her Father and her Creator.

Because Jesus, and God The Father, speak as the Messiah is a different person than God, then your arguments is the same one used to argue that Jesus was not God at all.

Please address this point: Jesus said He was the FIRST. Can there be more than one first ? If so, that would be the first two, NOT the first One. Who was first, God the Father, or Jesus ? There is ONE First and that is God Almighty, The Lord Jesus, who came down from heaven and was born of a woman to shed His blood for our sin.

How can you answer this problem:

2 Chronicles 7
¹⁴ if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

Is our land healed ? It is surly not healed. Then the people who are called by His Name has NOT "humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways".

So what are the wicked ways of the people who are called by His Name ?

LOOK IN THE BOOK and see that God accuses His people of Idolatry on almost every page.

Col 1
¹⁶ For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. ¹⁷ He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. ¹⁸ And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.¹⁹ For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, ²⁰ and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

God became a Man and ALL of God dwelled in that Man, Jesus.

Genesis 1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth

If Jesus created everything then He has to be The the same God that created the heavens and the earth in the beginning.

Is there more than one Holy Spirit ? The scriptures clearly tell us that God the Father has a Holy Spirit and the NT tells us that the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit of Christ. There is one Holy Spirit and He is the One and Only God the Father who appears to us in His Spirit instead of a body that we can see.

God appears three different ways. God the Father on the Throne, God's Holy Spirit, and God the Messiah, who was both God and Man. But as Jesus said:

Mark 12 The Greatest Commandment


²⁸ One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”

²⁹ “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.

But few believe what Jesus said and instead insist that God is three.

Please explain how anything can be both one and three. One thing can be divided into three parts. BUT then any part would not be all of the whole thing, but only part. Jesus is NOT part God, but fully God. If Jesus is one bit less than fully God, then He is not God at all. That is just "JW light" and saying that Jesus is only the son of God, but not God.

Again: Can you point to one passage that is in the ancient copies of the Scriptures where God calls Himself three persons ?

[Lou Newton]

My dear brother Glen,

Glen we have been writing to one another for many years now and you are very dear to me. So let us reason together dear friend:

Isaiah 9 GNV

⁶ For unto us a child is born, and unto us a Son is given: and the government is upon his shoulder, and he shall call his name, Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The prince of peace.

In the passage above God is the one being quoted by Isaiah. God calls the child ( who is Jesus) that will be born to us, The Everlasting Father. Everlasting means Jesus always was the Father, and always will be the Father.

Isa 9:6 ForH3588 unto us a childH3206 is born,H3205 unto us a sonH1121 is given:H5414 and the governmentH4951 shall be uponH5921 his shoulder:H7926 and his nameH8034 shall beH1961 calledH7121 Wonderful,H6382 Counsellor,H3289 The mightyH1368 God,H410 The everlastingH5703 Father,H1 The PrinceH8269 of Peace.H7965

H5703

עַד
‛ad
ad
From H5710; properly a (peremptory) terminus, that is, (by implication) duration, in the sense of perpetuity (substantially as a noun, either with or without a preposition): - eternity, ever (-lasting, -more), old, perpetually, + world without end.
Total KJV occurrences: 48

But God tells us that anything must be established by two or more witnesses. Here is another witness that God, The Father, is the One and Only Savior. We have not even left this one book yet.

Isaiah 43 (NIV)

Israel’s Only Savior


43 But now, this is what the Lord says—
he who created you, Jacob,
he who formed you, Israel:
“Do not fear, for I have redeemed you;
I have summoned you by name; you are mine.
² When you pass through the waters,
I will be with you;
and when you pass through the rivers,
they will not sweep over you.
When you walk through the fire,
you will not be burned;
the flames will not set you ablaze.
³ For I am the Lord your God,
the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;
I give Egypt for your ransom,
Cush and Seba in your stead.
⁴ Since you are precious and honored in my sight,
and because I love you,
I will give people in exchange for you,
nations in exchange for your life.
⁵ Do not be afraid, for I am with you;
I will bring your children from the east
and gather you from the west.
⁶ I will say to the north, ‘Give them up!’
and to the south, ‘Do not hold them back.’
Bring my sons from afar
and my daughters from the ends of the earth—
⁷ everyone who is called by my name,
whom I created for my glory,
whom I formed and made.”

⁸ Lead out those who have eyes but are blind,
who have ears but are deaf.
⁹ All the nations gather together
and the peoples assemble.
Which of their gods foretold this
and proclaimed to us the former things?
Let them bring in their witnesses to prove they were right,
so that others may hear and say, “It is true.”
¹⁰ “You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord,
“and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor will there be one after me.
¹¹ I, even I, am the Lord,
and apart from me there is no savior.

God makes it very clear that He is The One and Only Savior and there is no Savior except for Him. So Jesus, our Savior, has to be God our Father, because their is no Savior except for God our Father.

God is not trying to confuse us. Why did not any of the apostles speak of God in three persons?

Men have been confused by the fact that Jesus was BOTH, fully God and fully Man. When Jesus speaks as a man, He speaks as someone lower than God, and lower than the angels. But when Jesus speaks as God, He is fully God Almighty, the One and Only Righteous One.