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Why did Jesus wait to give the disciples His Holy Spirit

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  • Why did Jesus wait to give the disciples His Holy Spirit

    Lou,

    I have a question that doesn't relate directly to anything you've written on this thread. But it's a question that comes to my mind every so often, even as recently as this week. Maybe you could share some insight without derailing your thread.

    Here's my question...

    Why could the Comforter not come to the disciples except Jesus first departed and sent Him?

    Blane

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    JOHN 16
    16 These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended.

    2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
    3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.
    4 But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.
    5 But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou?
    6 But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart.

    7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

    8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
    9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
    10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
    11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
    12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
    13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
    14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
    15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
    16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.
    17 Then said some of his disciples among themselves, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me: and, Because I go to the Father?
    18 They said therefore, What is this that he saith, A little while? we cannot tell what he saith.
    19 Now Jesus knew that they were desirous to ask him, and said unto them, Do ye enquire among yourselves of that I said, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me?
    20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.
    21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.
    22 And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.
    23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
    24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.
    25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.
    26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
    27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
    28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
    29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.
    30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.
    31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?
    32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.
    33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

  • #2
    Part 1

    VERY GOOD QUESTION BLANE !!!!!!!!!!!!

    Thanks for asking. I have moved this to a new thread because I think it worthy of it's own thread. I hope you do not mind.

    1st of all I will approach this to answer those who have been taught the popular teaching of a lot of churches.

    John 16: 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
    Many have taken this scripture along with the story in Acts of the Holy Spirit coming at Pentecost and concluded that The Holy Spirit had not filled any man before Pentecost.

    THAT IS SIMPLY NOT ACCORDING TO THE HOLY SCRIPTURES - but it according to the traditions of men

    It is easy to show that it is false:

    John 20
    Jesus Appears to His Disciples
    19 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 20 After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord. 21 Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."
    If anyone thinks that Jesus could speak this and the disciples NOT receive His Holy Spirit that day, they need more help than I can give them in this thread alone. Jesus is God Almighty and He created everything that exists.

    When Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, Jesus called in a loud voice, "Lazarus, come out!". The reason Jesus called Lazarus by name is if he had not everyone in that grave yard would have rose from the dead. The universe obeys it's creator immediately. We men think everything is disobedient like us. But the whole universe obeys Jesus except for men and demons. And even men and demons obey when Jesus takes authority over them.

    When Jesus said, "let there be light", there was light. The light did not come a year later, but immediately after He spoke. So these disciples RECIEVED THE HOLY SPIRIT THAT VERY DAY.

    The Holy Scriptures say that Jesus BREATHED ON THEM AND SAID RECIEVE THE HOLY SPIRIT.

    Jesus was showing that He was, and IS the same God Almighty that BREATHED THE BREATH OF LIFE INTO ADAM.

    So someone might say, well The Holy Spirit came upon the disciples the day Jesus rose from the dead. But no one had the Holy Spirit before that day.

    THAT IS ALSO NOT ACCORDING TO THE HOLY SCRIPTURES

    see part 2

    Comment


    • #3
      Part 2

      LUKE 1
      1 Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, 2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3 Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.
      The Birth of John the Baptist Foretold
      5 In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah; his wife Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron. 6 Both of them were upright in the sight of God, observing all the Lord's commandments and regulations blamelessly. 7 But they had no children, because Elizabeth was barren; and they were both well along in years. 8 Once when Zechariah's division was on duty and he was serving as priest before God, 9 he was chosen by lot, according to the custom of the priesthood, to go into the temple of the Lord and burn incense. 10 And when the time for the burning of incense came, all the assembled worshipers were praying outside. 11 Then an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing at the right side of the altar of incense. 12 When Zechariah saw him, he was startled and was gripped with fear. 13 But the angel said to him: "Do not be afraid, Zechariah; your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you are to give him the name John. 14 He will be a joy and delight to you, and many will rejoice because of his birth, 15 for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from birth. 16 Many of the people of Israel will he bring back to the Lord their God. 17 And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous--to make ready a people prepared for the Lord." 18 Zechariah asked the angel, "How can I be sure of this? I am an old man and my wife is well along in years." 19 The angel answered, "I am Gabriel. I stand in the presence of God, and I have been sent to speak to you and to tell you this good news. 20 And now you will be silent and not able to speak until the day this happens, because you did not believe my words, which will come true at their proper time." 21 Meanwhile, the people were waiting for Zechariah and wondering why he stayed so long in the temple. 22 When he came out, he could not speak to them. They realized he had seen a vision in the temple, for he kept making signs to them but remained unable to speak. 23 When his time of service was completed, he returned home. 24 After this his wife Elizabeth became pregnant and for five months remained in seclusion. 25 "The Lord has done this for me," she said. "In these days he has shown his favor and taken away my disgrace among the people."
      The angel Gabriel clearly tells us that John would be FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT EVEN FROM BIRTH.

      We also see that Zechariah was punished for not believing a mere angel. Think of the punishment for not believing God Almighty who showed His love for all by shedding His blood on the cross.

      The Birth of Jesus Foretold
      26 In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary. 28 The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you." 29 Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30 But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God. 31 You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end." 34 "How will this be," Mary asked the angel, "since I am a virgin?" 35 The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. 36 Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be barren is in her sixth month. 37 For nothing is impossible with God." 38 "I am the Lord's servant," Mary answered. "May it be to me as you have said." Then the angel left her.
      Mary Visits Elizabeth
      39 At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea, 40 where she entered Zechariah's home and greeted Elizabeth. 41 When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 In a loud voice she exclaimed: "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43 But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. 45 Blessed is she who has believed that what the Lord has said to her will be accomplished!"
      Mary's Song
      We see here that John's mother was FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT

      1:46-53pp -- 1Sa 2:1-10
      46 And Mary said: "My soul glorifies the Lord 47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, 48 for he has been mindful of the humble state of his servant. From now on all generations will call me blessed, 49 for the Mighty One has done great things for me-- holy is his name. 50 His mercy extends to those who fear him, from generation to generation. 51 He has performed mighty deeds with his arm; he has scattered those who are proud in their inmost thoughts. 52 He has brought down rulers from their thrones but has lifted up the humble. 53 He has filled the hungry with good things but has sent the rich away empty. 54 He has helped his servant Israel, remembering to be merciful 55 to Abraham and his descendants forever, even as he said to our fathers." 56 Mary stayed with Elizabeth for about three months and then returned home.
      The Birth of John the Baptist
      57 When it was time for Elizabeth to have her baby, she gave birth to a son. 58 Her neighbors and relatives heard that the Lord had shown her great mercy, and they shared her joy. 59 On the eighth day they came to circumcise the child, and they were going to name him after his father Zechariah, 60 but his mother spoke up and said, "No! He is to be called John." 61 They said to her, "There is no one among your relatives who has that name." 62 Then they made signs to his father, to find out what he would like to name the child. 63 He asked for a writing tablet, and to everyone's astonishment he wrote, "His name is John." 64 Immediately his mouth was opened and his tongue was loosed, and he began to speak, praising God. 65 The neighbors were all filled with awe, and throughout the hill country of Judea people were talking about all these things. 66 Everyone who heard this wondered about it, asking, "What then is this child going to be?" For the Lord's hand was with him.
      Zechariah's Song
      67 His father Zechariah was filled with the Holy Spirit and prophesied: 68 "Praise be to the Lord, the God of Israel, because he has come and has redeemed his people. 69 He has raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David 70 (as he said through his holy prophets of long ago), 71 salvation from our enemies and from the hand of all who hate us-- 72 to show mercy to our fathers and to remember his holy covenant, 73 the oath he swore to our father Abraham: 74 to rescue us from the hand of our enemies, and to enable us to serve him without fear 75 in holiness and righteousness before him all our days. 76 And you, my child, will be called a prophet of the Most High; for you will go on before the Lord to prepare the way for him, 77 to give his people the knowledge of salvation through the forgiveness of their sins, 78 because of the tender mercy of our God, by which the rising sun will come to us from heaven 79 to shine on those living in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the path of peace." 80 And the child grew and became strong in spirit; and he lived in the desert until he appeared publicly to Israel.
      Now we see John's father was filled with The Holy Spirit, and John grew strong in the SPIRIT.

      God gives us this command

      Proverbs 3:27
      English Standard Version
      Do not withhold good from those to whom it is due, when it is in your power to do it.
      Would God not lead us by example. Why would he withhold His Holy Spirit from anyone that it was due.

      Now we must ask what is the requirement of God to give his Holy Spirit to someone ?

      Well that person has to be righteous. But there is but one way for anyone to be righteous. That is to confess their sin to The Lord and ask God to forgive them and then trust God to save them instead of trusting in themselves.

      Genesis 5
      21 When Enoch had lived 65 years, he became the father of Methuselah. 22 And after he became the father of Methuselah, Enoch walked with God 300 years and had other sons and daughters. 23 Altogether, Enoch lived 365 years. 24 Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.
      Hebrews 11:5 NIV
      By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.
      Enoch pleased God and no one can please God except by faith. So Enoch was righteous and trusted God to save him.

      So tell me why would God withhold His Holy Spirit from Enoch.

      Someone might argue that no one could be righteous before Jesus shed His blood for us.

      But we are told Noah was righteous and many other men of the OT were righteous. No one can be righteous except by the blood of Jesus.

      Were we born too late to be covered with his blood. If the blood of Jesus can reach into the future why can it not reach into the past. God lives in eternity, he is not bound by time. That is why he could say this:

      Revelation 13
      8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world
      If the men of the OT preached for 120 years and built arks to obey God, wrote the Holy Scriptures, and God preformed many miracles as they spoke, if they did all this without His Holy Spirit, we are mighty guilty if we have done less with His Holy Spirit.

      Tell me, how could Elijah go up on that mountain and speak and bring down fire from heaven without the Holy Spirit. How would he have known what to say except The Holy Spirit speak through him.

      2 Peter 1
      . 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
      Grace to you
      Lou Newton

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Blane View Post
        Lou,

        I have a question that doesn't relate directly to anything you've written on this thread. But it's a question that comes to my mind every so often, even as recently as this week. Maybe you could share some insight without derailing your thread.

        Here's my question...

        Why could the Comforter not come to the disciples except Jesus first departed and sent Him?

        Blane

        ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


        JOHN 16
        16 These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended.

        2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
        3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.
        4 But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.
        5 But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou?
        6 But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart.

        7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

        8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
        9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
        10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
        11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
        12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
        13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
        14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
        15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
        16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.
        17 Then said some of his disciples among themselves, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me: and, Because I go to the Father?
        18 They said therefore, What is this that he saith, A little while? we cannot tell what he saith.
        19 Now Jesus knew that they were desirous to ask him, and said unto them, Do ye enquire among yourselves of that I said, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me?
        20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.
        21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.
        22 And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.
        23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
        24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.
        25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.
        26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
        27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
        28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
        29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.
        30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.
        31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?
        32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.
        33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
        Now to start to answer Blane's question, let me ask you a question.

        If Jesus lived in the flesh at your house and you went around with Him everyday, would you pray and seek His Holy Spirit, OR would you simply ask Him in the flesh ?

        Also remember that Jesus had limitations as a man in the flesh. He was fully God, but He was also fully man. In the flesh he could not be everywhere at once. He could not be with Peter in Jerusalem and also be with Paul in Rome at the same time.

        But His Holy Spirit could be with every Christian and no one would be left out.

        Lou Newton

        Comment


        • #5
          Blane,

          Thank you for asking this question. I realized I had an unspoken curiosity about it, too.

          Lou,

          Thank you for these words. You've given much to ponder. The following just came to me (I admit I wrestled for it, too--I might be a little shaky, so I welcome any correction).

          In the natural:

          God had prepared a way for His people: Moses, a Christ figure, freed the Israelites from bondage and led them out of captivity (really, God did, through Moses). The people passed between the parted waters, God with them (His angel: a pillar of cloud by day, a pillar of fire by night). This is taught as a shadow for baptism of water and Spirit. This also reminds me of the confirming of a covenant where, like the "cutting of a covenant", a bullock is sectioned and both parties pass between the halves, from one side, across and out the other to create a new beginning that is binding to both parties.

          In the wilderness, Christ was the rock that brought the water to His people. He fed them, covered them (renewed their garments), in every way sustained them, and during which period they were tried and purified to prepare them to possess the promised land. In that era the Spirit of God was with them. He dwelt in the temple constructed in the natural (the ark of the covenant), and serviced by an ordained priest class with great reverence and care to maintain the people's relationship with God.

          Jesus was Emmanuel (imanu=with us, El=God). Indeed, while He was with us men could seek Him face to face. But the natural ordinances were still in place.

          During Jesus' ministry He fulfilled many prophecies. He confirmed God's covenant--that He cut with Abraham--by His sacrifice on the cross, and He passed through death...

          Into the spiritual:

          ...and out the other side to new Life.

          Jesus prepared the way for His people: Himself. Christ sent His Spirit to dwell in the vessel of His people, freeing them from bondage and leading them out of captivity. His people enter into a new covenant with Him and pass, by the quickening of the Spirit, from death to new Life. The person's body is made, by God, into the dwelling place of God's Spirit, a temple of the Lord, and the new man is ordained a priest in His order; and great reverence and care are taken to maintain the new man's relationship with God.

          There is a wilderness that followers of Christ travel, for the rest of our lives, preparing us to possess the promised land. In our journey, the Holy Spirit sees to our needs, making intercession in the spirit because we know not what to pray, and gives us direct access to the Father and the Son in heaven: Emmanuel in the spiritual.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Baruch View Post
            Blane,

            Thank you for asking this question. I realized I had an unspoken curiosity about it, too.

            Lou,

            Thank you for these words. You've given much to ponder. The following just came to me (I admit I wrestled for it, too--I might be a little shaky, so I welcome any correction).

            In the natural:

            God had prepared a way for His people: Moses, a Christ figure, freed the Israelites from bondage and led them out of captivity (really, God did, through Moses). The people passed between the parted waters, God with them (His angel: a pillar of cloud by day, a pillar of fire by night). This is taught as a shadow for baptism of water and Spirit. This also reminds me of the confirming of a covenant where, like the "cutting of a covenant", a bullock is sectioned and both parties pass between the halves, from one side, across and out the other to create a new beginning that is binding to both parties.

            In the wilderness, Christ was the rock that brought the water to His people. He fed them, covered them (renewed their garments), in every way sustained them, and during which period they were tried and purified to prepare them to possess the promised land. In that era the Spirit of God was with them. He dwelt in the temple constructed in the natural (the ark of the covenant), and serviced by an ordained priest class with great reverence and care to maintain the people's relationship with God.

            Jesus was Emmanuel (imanu=with us, El=God). Indeed, while He was with us men could seek Him face to face. But the natural ordinances were still in place.

            During Jesus' ministry He fulfilled many prophecies. He confirmed God's covenant--that He cut with Abraham--by His sacrifice on the cross, and He passed through death...

            Into the spiritual:

            ...and out the other side to new Life.

            Jesus prepared the way for His people: Himself. Christ sent His Spirit to dwell in the vessel of His people, freeing them from bondage and leading them out of captivity. His people enter into a new covenant with Him and pass, by the quickening of the Spirit, from death to new Life. The person's body is made, by God, into the dwelling place of God's Spirit, a temple of the Lord, and the new man is ordained a priest in His order; and great reverence and care are taken to maintain the new man's relationship with God.

            There is a wilderness that followers of Christ travel, for the rest of our lives, preparing us to possess the promised land. In our journey, the Holy Spirit sees to our needs, making intercession in the spirit because we know not what to pray, and gives us direct access to the Father and the Son in heaven: Emmanuel in the spiritual.
            Thanks for this comment Baruch.

            I see nothing to disagree with. Good stuff.

            But we should also be aware that The Holy Spirit was always available to anyone who humbled themselves before God and confessed their sin and asked Him to save then from their sin.

            Jesus breathed the breath of life into Adam. This was the Spirit. Jesus is LIFE. No man can have life in the spirit without The Holy Spirit.

            Abraham is the father of our faith. So we are to have the same faith as he had. So Abraham had to have the Holy Spirit, for there is no other way to be saved.

            We are forgiven by being covered by the blood of Jesus. But it is the infilling of His Holy Spirit that saves us. For our spirit must be born again, or baptized in His Holy Spirit to be saved.

            Lou

            Comment


            • #7
              Why did Jesus wait to give His Holy Spirit to the disciples ?

              So why did Jesus wait to give His Holy Spirit to the disciples ?

              If we study the disciples, we can see they were a bunch of pretty fleshly men before Jesus gave them His Holy Spirit in the Upper Room on the day He rose from the dead. But after this day, they were a truly changed group of people.

              We are men of flesh and we seek to sustain the flesh. We go by what we see with our eyes, and hear with our ears. When Jesus was born of a woman and became a man of flesh, men then could see Him with their eyes and hear Him with their ears. Of course Adam could see God who walked in the garden with him. Abraham also could see God when He came to visit him. But God had not become flesh yet in order to shed his blood for us. So we can see that God can also manifest Himself before He became a man. But Abraham lived in Ur and Melchizedek lived in Salem, so God spoke to Abraham by His Holy Spirit, for Abraham had sought God's Spirit.

              When Jesus Christ walked in a body of flesh, men could ask Him whatever they pleased. The disciples had no reason to seek His Holy Spirit, for they had Christ who was flesh.

              But we have to seek to find. We are promised to find what we seek. We have to seek the Spirit to find the Spirit.

              Like I had asked before, if Jesus lived in your house in a body you could see and hear and touch, why would you seek Him in the Spirit. You would simply go ask Him whatever you wanted to know. You would seek Him in your flesh instead of seeking His Holy Spirit.

              7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
              Jesus was born of a woman for the purpose of dying for our sin. So after He shed His blood on the cross, He returned to heaven. This was GOOD for the disciples because this would cause them to seek His Holy Spirit instead of seeking Him in the flesh. Jesus is simply telling His disciples what he is going to do before he does it, so they can remember what he said and seek Him in the Spirit after He dies and is buried in the tomb.

              Now God is SPIRIT. The spirit realm is eternal, the flesh realm will pass away. So the spiritual realm is superior to the natural.

              For example:

              Jesus Christ who was flesh, had limitations of the flesh. His Body of flesh could not be with Peter in Jerusalem and also be with Paul in Rome.

              Jesus could be close in position to a another man's body of flesh, but He could not live inside of that man. His Holy Spirit could be much closer by living inside of that man's spirit. This is necessary to take place for that man to have eternal life. For God can only give REAL LIFE ( or eternal life) by giving His Holy Spirit to a man.

              The Holy Spirit of The Lord Jesus can be with every Christian on this planet. He is with us every second of every day. The Holy Spirit can be with me in Salem and you in Timbuktu.

              7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
              So these words are totally true in every way.

              Lou Newton
              Last edited by Lou Newton; October 9, 2014, 11:13 AM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Hi Lou,

                Excellent explanations, as usual, and thank you for the comment.

                I wouldn't be surprised if I am overthinking this. When God was with us, in the flesh, there were presumably many men who were not within camel range and/or could not get away from work to go be close to Him. Presumably some of these same men sought God in the spirit, and were walking with His spirit as men did in the Old Testament--in fact, it was technically still the era of the Old Testament.

                It begs the question in my mind: while God was with us, as Jesus, was His spirit not available to men as it had been?

                Or was Jesus' statement, "It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you," of special significance to the apostles who were to step out into the great commission, and *they* needed to seek His spirit for this purpose; which was an obstacle while He was a manifest in the flesh with them?

                And other stuff you think relevant.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Baruch View Post
                  Hi Lou,

                  Excellent explanations, as usual, and thank you for the comment.

                  I wouldn't be surprised if I am overthinking this. When God was with us, in the flesh, there were presumably many men who were not within camel range and/or could not get away from work to go be close to Him. Presumably some of these same men sought God in the spirit, and were walking with His spirit as men did in the Old Testament--in fact, it was technically still the era of the Old Testament.

                  It begs the question in my mind: while God was with us, as Jesus, was His spirit not available to men as it had been?

                  Or was Jesus' statement, "It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you," of special significance to the apostles who were to step out into the great commission, and *they* needed to seek His spirit for this purpose; which was an obstacle while He was a manifest in the flesh with them?

                  And other stuff you think relevant.
                  Hi Baruch,

                  Thank you for your very kind reply and questions.

                  God never changes and he always follows his own laws.

                  I see no reason that anyone could not receive His Holy Spirit at any time they sought Him in the spirit.

                  The only reason that I can see that the disciples did not receive The Holy Spirit before Jesus died and rose again is the reasons I have given, plus this one:

                  It may have been impossible for them to sorrow over their sin while they were with the Truth and The Life. How does one sorrow over the blind given sight, the deaf given hearing, the mute given speech, the lame made to walk, and the dead raised to life. Add to this the fact that the words coming from the mouth of Jesus were life and truth and who could sorrow.

                  Matthew 9:15
                  Jesus answered, “How can the guests of the bridegroom mourn while he is with them? The time will come when the bridegroom will be taken from them; then they will fast.
                  BUT when Jesus was arrested, beaten, and crucified they certainly did sorrow. In this sorrow they found the fellowship of His sufferings. In this sorrow they confessed their sin and received forgiveness. When Jesus appeared to them in the Upper Room they were born again by receiving His Holy Spirit.

                  Every conversion is a personal experience and different. Look at the thief on the cross with Jesus. He was born again while on that cross that same day. We know this because Jesus said:

                  John 3:3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."
                  Luke 23:40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”

                  42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”

                  43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
                  We see that the criminal was told he would be with Jesus in heaven that very day.

                  This proves the criminal was born again.

                  We also know that the body of Jesus was buried in the tomb that day. For the criminal to be with Jesus that very day, Jesus had to be God Almighty who was certainly in heaven that day and every day.

                  Lou Newton

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Lou
                    Hi Baruch,

                    Thank you for your very kind reply and questions.

                    God never changes and he always follows his own laws.

                    I see no reason that anyone could not receive His Holy Spirit at any time they sought Him in the spirit.

                    The only reason that I can see that the disciples did not receive The Holy Spirit before Jesus died and rose again is the reasons I have given, plus this one:

                    It may have been impossible for them to sorrow over their sin while they were with the Truth and The Life. How does one sorrow over the blind given sight, the deaf given hearing, the mute given speech, the lame made to walk, and the dead raised to life. Add to this the fact that the words coming from the mouth of Jesus were life and truth and who could sorrow.

                    Matthew 9:15
                    Jesus answered, “How can the guests of the bridegroom mourn while he is with them? The time will come when the bridegroom will be taken from them; then they will fast.




                    BUT when Jesus was arrested, beaten, and crucified they certainly did sorrow. In this sorrow they found the fellowship of His sufferings. In this sorrow they confessed their sin and received forgiveness. When Jesus appeared to them in the Upper Room they were born again by receiving His Holy Spirit.

                    Every conversion is a personal experience and different. Look at the thief on the cross with Jesus. He was born again while on that cross that same day. We know this because Jesus said:


                    John 3:3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."




                    Luke 23:40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”

                    42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”

                    43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”




                    We see that the criminal was told he would be with Jesus in heaven that very day.

                    This proves the criminal was born again.

                    We also know that the body of Jesus was buried in the tomb that day. For the criminal to be with Jesus that very day, Jesus had to be God Almighty who was certainly in heaven that day and every day.

                    Lou Newton
                    Lou,

                    Thanks for starting a separate thread with my question. Better to have two good threads going, than to have an off topic question derail a good discussion.

                    Your quote above that I highlighted in blue is most thought provoking. I've heard several preachers over the years try to explain this passage, but this makes the most sense to me.

                    Blane

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Blane View Post
                      Lou,

                      Thanks for starting a separate thread with my question. Better to have two good threads going, than to have an off topic question derail a good discussion.

                      Your quote above that I highlighted in blue is most thought provoking. I've heard several preachers over the years try to explain this passage, but this makes the most sense to me.

                      Blane
                      I thought your question was such a good one, I wanted to see it get it's own thread.

                      Amen to your comment. Some go to the most convoluted explanations to preserve the doctrines that they teach. But, instead the truth is usually very simple.

                      All of these false doctrines have laid a minefield of errors that keep people from seeing the truth. Once a false assumption is made about a subject, it is very hard to see the truth, even though it is very simple.

                      Lou

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Lou Newton View Post
                        I thought your question was such a good one, I wanted to see it get it's own thread.

                        Amen to your comment. Some go to the most convoluted explanations to preserve the doctrines that they teach. But, instead the truth is usually very simple.

                        All of these false doctrines have laid a minefield of errors that keep people from seeing the truth. Once a false assumption is made about a subject, it is very hard to see the truth, even though it is very simple.

                        Lou
                        Just one more reason why hearing the voice of God is critical to understanding scripture. There are so many voices speaking in the church world. It can become overwhelming trying to discern and filter out all the doctrines of men, some of which come from world renowned theologians.

                        Blane

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Thanks brothers for this discussion.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Blane View Post
                            Just one more reason why hearing the voice of God is critical to understanding scripture. There are so many voices speaking in the church world. It can become overwhelming trying to discern and filter out all the doctrines of men, some of which come from world renowned theologians.

                            Blane
                            That is sure true. I used to post on a web site called Christian World View and it had world renowned theologians that wrote articles for it. Some of the writers had books that sold millions of copies. I would post replies that disagreed with their doctrines. At first I would get replies speaking down to me like I was a child ( even though I was old enough to be their father). But I would respond and their doctrine could not stand up to the truth. After a while they would just ignore me. But I could see that many read my posts. Some would simply not post my replies until their articles was off of the first page ( for few read it after that). I remember one writer who did this and only 200 had read his article on "Babylon has to be rebuilt before Jesus returns". But when his article went to page 2, he posted my replies. It had 3000 views in no time after that. It was obvious to me that I had more readers than he did. I went there to copy my replies after a year and it had 50,000 views.

                            My point is this: Satan and the nations rage against the truth, but God is sovereign and He will have total victory in the end.

                            Lou

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Steve Hollander View Post
                              Thanks brothers for this discussion.
                              Thanks so much for your reply Steve. You are one of the people I am writing for. It helps me more than you will ever know when you tell me you are reading them.

                              Lou

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