Introducing the Divine Council Worldview

[Baruch]

If you're new to the topic of the Divine Council, then you can get Dr. Michael Heiser's 30-minute crash course
Divine Council Intro.

Once you have the who and why of the Divine Council, next is an excellent study by Dr. Heiser that ties the book of Acts soundly to the tower of Babel incident. I found this extremely fascinating.

Introducing the Divine Council Worldview

The videos are from the "start here" section of Dr. Heiser's NakedBible podcast web site, and are his recommended prep studies for listening to the NakedBible podcast episodes.

If you like the podcasts there is also a RSS feed on his general site http://drmsh.com/ on which he announces new episodes.

[Lou Newton]

If you're new to the topic of the Divine Council, then you can get Dr. Michael Heiser's 30-minute crash course here.

Once you have the who and why of the Divine Counsel, next is an excellent study by Dr. Heiser that ties the book of Acts soundly to the tower of Babel incident. I found this extremely fascinating.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_5M9mpnthQ

The videos are from the "start here" section of Dr. Heiser's NakedBible podcast web site, and are his recommended prep studies for listening to the NakedBible podcast episodes.

If you like the podcasts there is also a RSS feed on his general site http://drmsh.com/ on which he announces new episodes.

Thanks Barry,

I don't have to watch right now, but will do so later today.

Lou

[Baruch]

I'm curious if anybody watched these two videos. I think you all would really dig 'em. This is in my opinion a faith-building revelation of God's sovereignty, foreknowledge, and absolute brilliance.

[Lou Newton]

I'm curious if anybody watched these two videos. I think you all would really dig 'em. This is in my opinion a faith-building revelation of God's sovereignty, foreknowledge, and absolute brilliance.

I watched the video Barry. I did not know there were two videos to watch.................Lou

[Baruch]

I watched the video Barry. I did not know there were two videos to watch.................Lou

Sorry. Maybe my markup was too subtle, where I put "here" above was the first link.

This video is the intro to the divine counsel, aka the Tower of Babel event and some other passages. Understanding this is essential to seeing the significance of the second one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKPid4i4SmI

And this is the follow-up, tying the book of Acts to the Tower of Babel incident.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_5M9mpnthQ

[Lou Newton]

Sorry. Maybe my markup was too subtle, where I put "here" above was the first link.

This video is the intro to the divine counsel, aka the Tower of Babel event and some other passages. Understanding this is essential to seeing the significance of the second one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKPid4i4SmI

And this is the follow-up, tying the book of Acts to the Tower of Babel incident.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_5M9mpnthQ

Thanks Barry,

I watched the other video and found it interesting.

I might disagree on one point of his. That is about angels. I question if angels are under, or even different from the other spirit world beings.

I think the term , angel, simply means a being of the spirit world. I also think all of these terms could just be said to be beings of the spirit world, which is one of his main points in the video.

For we have fallen angels, or demons.

We have angels that serve The Lord Jesus.

And we have The Angel of The Lord Himself, who is The Lord Jesus as the passage about the burning bush so clearly shows.

[Travis]

Thanks Barry,

I watched the first one. I mostly already agreed with Heiser on the topic, but it was a good review of what he believes. I will try to watch the second one later.

At the end of the first video I did notice that Heiser does not like the idea of God's sovereign foreknowledge. He uses an example of King David to prove that God does not know everything that is going to happen ahead of time. There are more important topics for sure, and I don't claim to have it all figured out, but I think Heiser may be dismissing something just because he can't seem to reconcile it with his own mind. I guess that at the core of that topic is really another one, in that it would seem to me that the scriptures clearly demonstrate both election, and free will. To emphasize one and not the other is to do injustice to what is written. I guess I just think it is a bad idea to dismiss something just because it doesn't make sense to us, when the scriptures clearly teach it. Don't get me wrong, I'm not writing Heiser off by any means, I like him very much. He is way smarter than I am. But it would seem to me that he is just as capable of covering over things he doesn't like as those whom he has clearly pointed out do so in other areas.

Blessings,

Travis

[Baruch]

Thanks Barry,

I watched the other video and found it interesting.

I might disagree on one point of his. That is about angels. I question if angels are under, or even different from the other spirit world beings.

I think the term , angel, simply means a being of the spirit world. I also think all of these terms could just be said to be beings of the spirit world, which is one of his main points in the video.

For we have fallen angels, or demons.

We have angels that serve The Lord Jesus.

And we have The Angel of The Lord Himself, who is The Lord Jesus as the passage about the burning bush so clearly shows.

Thanks for the comment, Lou.

It could be that celestial beings are "the same" in the same way humans are the same: as a kind, as Paul states, with (my speculation) individual features. We are not told in the scriptures we have today, but I find it interesting to explore.

Heiser is careful not to exalt his observations to the level of doctrine. Anything not breathed by God is open to conjecture, and care is certainly needed: it would equally be doctrinal to claim it's not so in the absence of evidence.

What I really appreciate about Heiser's work is that he pries at the difficult parts of the Bible, putting them in the cultural context of the time that he can reconstruct by reading cultural texts from that time so that they make sense: in other words, "here is how a Jew in that day would interpret this". Truly, I am prone to misunderstanding numerous passages when I derive their meaning in my own cultural context. Heavenly things are timeless, languages and cultures are entirely subject to time.

The main topic of the #2 video is really what I intend to draw attention to and enjoy some discussion. Heiser's premise is that a major chunk of the book of Acts is a detailed and systematic reclamation of the scattering done at the tower of Babel. When I see it explained, it seems clear that Luke didn't convey this by accident or construct it with his intellect. The Holy Spirit surely purposed it. That would make this another divine signature that strengthens the veracity of scripture, one of the many hidden treasures waiting to be found in God's word. It amazes me, and I just had to share it.

Thanks Barry,

I watched the first one. I mostly already agreed with Heiser on the topic, but it was a good review of what he believes. I will try to watch the second one later.

At the end of the first video I did notice that Heiser does not like the idea of God's sovereign foreknowledge. He uses an example of King David to prove that God does not know everything that is going to happen ahead of time. There are more important topics for sure, and I don't claim to have it all figured out, but I think Heiser may be dismissing something just because he can't seem to reconcile it with his own mind. I guess that at the core of that topic is really another one, in that it would seem to me that the scriptures clearly demonstrate both election, and free will. To emphasize one and not the other is to do injustice to what is written. I guess I just think it is a bad idea to dismiss something just because it doesn't make sense to us, when the scriptures clearly teach it. Don't get me wrong, I'm not writing Heiser off by any means, I like him very much. He is way smarter than I am. But it would seem to me that he is just as capable of covering over things he doesn't like as those whom he has clearly pointed out do so in other areas.

Blessings,

Travis

Thanks, Travis.

I didn't recall experiencing any cognitive dissonance, so I listened to that part again. I understand why now. The passage Heiser discusses demonstrates two facts foreknown by God. But neither of them happened, because He shared the foreknowledge with David who then took evasive action. Obviously this evasive action was blessed by God, for David would not have been able to resist God's will. Compare to Saul's demise, when he sought ungodly foreknowledge of his future and final battle.

It seems to me another possibility is a subtlety of language. The questions "will Saul come down" and "will the men of Keilah surrender me" may carry the meaning "is it their will to do so?" David's decision to flee is then based on his understanding of what would happen if he did not heed the warning from God. God knew David would evade.

As you point out, Heiser knows the languages way, way better than we do armed with our Strong's. As a linguist and literary scholar he is very precise with his words. It's interesting to consider this passage as evidence that God does indeed foreknow everything: every thing that will happen, and every possibility that could happen; but He doesn't violate free will, which I think is the bone most people choke on when they try to reconcile the functional aspects of predestination with free will. Without reading into his words, you should be able to get his meaning in "foreknowledge [of an outcome, by extension all outcomes] does not necessitate predestination", because out of all possible outcomes only one is reached. He isn't saying that he doesn't believe in predestination, only that in our realm we participate as free agents, even though God still brings His will to pass. In other words, when God says here "They will surrender you," we must not interpret that as a prediction that did not come true.

One could also look at this as the typical oracular query puzzle. David did not ask, "When they come, will I be given into their hands?" But I'd rather not take that path. Who can second-guess our God?

[Travis]

He isn't saying that he doesn't believe in predestination, only that in our realm we participate as free agents, even though God still brings His will to pass. In other words, when God says here "They will surrender you," we must not interpret that as a prediction that did not come true.

I have heard him argue against predestination before, so I was already familiar with his stance. He doesn't believe what I believe. Which is fine. I just think he's wrong. And, I think he is wrong because of what I was saying before, in that he doesn't understand it, so he dismisses it. Which is an incredibly easy thing to do. I could be wrong too. There are more important subjects though for sure.

Blessings!

Travis

[Lou Newton]

Thanks for the comment, Lou.

It could be that celestial beings are "the same" in the same way humans are the same: as a kind, as Paul states, with (my speculation) individual features. We are not told in the scriptures we have today, but I find it interesting to explore.

Heiser is careful not to exalt his observations to the level of doctrine. Anything not breathed by God is open to conjecture, and care is certainly needed: it would equally be doctrinal to claim it's not so in the absence of evidence.

What I really appreciate about Heiser's work is that he pries at the difficult parts of the Bible, putting them in the cultural context of the time that he can reconstruct by reading cultural texts from that time so that they make sense: in other words, "here is how a Jew in that day would interpret this". Truly, I am prone to misunderstanding numerous passages when I derive their meaning in my own cultural context. Heavenly things are timeless, languages and cultures are entirely subject to time.

The main topic of the #2 video is really what I intend to draw attention to and enjoy some discussion. Heiser's premise is that a major chunk of the book of Acts is a detailed and systematic reclamation of the scattering done at the tower of Babel. When I see it explained, it seems clear that Luke didn't convey this by accident or construct it with his intellect. The Holy Spirit surely purposed it. That would make this another divine signature that strengthens the veracity of scripture, one of the many hidden treasures waiting to be found in God's word. It amazes me, and I just had to share it.

Hi Barry,

I would submit this thought about Babel;

The scattering that took place at Babel, was not the first time God took that action.

God tells us in Genesis 1 that he GATHERED and then SEPARATED many times.

He GATHERED star dust to make the stars and their planets, and then separated that same system with a supernova.

The Beginning

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.
4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness.
5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning--the first day.
6 And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water."
7 So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so.
8 God called the expanse "sky." And there was evening, and there was morning--the second day.
9 And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so.
10 God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters he called "seas." And God saw that it was good.
11 Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so.
12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
13 And there was evening, and there was morning--the third day.
14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years,
15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so.
16 God made two great lights--the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars.
17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth,
18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good.
19 And there was evening, and there was morning--the fourth day.
20 And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky."
21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
22 God blessed them and said, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth."
23And there was evening, and there was morning--the fifth day.
24 And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so.
25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."
29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.
30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground--everything that has the breath of life in it--I give every green plant for food." And it was so.
31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning--the sixth day.


God GATHERS material to make a plant and then SCATTERS the seed over the face of the earth.

God GATHERED a family for Adam and then SCATTERED Cain away from Adam.

God gathered mankind and then SCATTERED, IN A FLOOD, the ones who chose demons; and then GATHERED Noah and his family in The Ark.

God GATHERED a family for Abraham and gave him a child of promise, but then SCATTERED Ismael from Abraham.

God gathered a family for Isaac, and then scattered the decedents of Esau, from Israel.

God GATHERED Lot, but then when Lot left and chose Sodom, God scattered his descendants from Israel.

God GATHERED Israel and brought them to His promised land, but then scattered those who chose to worship wood and stone instead of Him.

The examples are endless. This will go one until the final SCATTERING of the children of Satan when they are swept away when Jesus returns and GATHERS His Children.

The SCATTERING came first in the Big Bang. Then the force of gravity GATHERED matter into star systems.

This cycle has to take place for life to come about.

Lou Newton

[Baruch]

I have heard him argue against predestination before, so I was already familiar with his stance. He doesn't believe what I believe. Which is fine. I just think he's wrong. And, I think he is wrong because of what I was saying before, in that he doesn't understand it, so he dismisses it. Which is an incredibly easy thing to do. I could be wrong too. There are more important subjects though for sure.

Blessings!

Travis

Hm. If you mean he doesn't believe in Calvin's predestination, I have seen him say that.

Blessings back.

[Baruch]

Hi Barry,

I would submit this thought about Babel;

The scattering that took place at Babel, was not the first time God took that action.

God tells us in Genesis 1 that he GATHERED and then SEPARATED many times.

He GATHERED star dust to make the stars and their planets, and then separated that same system with a supernova.

The Beginning

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.
4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness.
5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning--the first day.
6 And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water."
7 So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so.
8 God called the expanse "sky." And there was evening, and there was morning--the second day.
9 And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so.
10 God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters he called "seas." And God saw that it was good.
11 Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so.
12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
13 And there was evening, and there was morning--the third day.
14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years,
15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so.
16 God made two great lights--the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars.
17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth,
18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good.
19 And there was evening, and there was morning--the fourth day.
20 And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky."
21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
22 God blessed them and said, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth."
23And there was evening, and there was morning--the fifth day.
24 And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so.
25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."
29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.
30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground--everything that has the breath of life in it--I give every green plant for food." And it was so.
31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning--the sixth day.


God GATHERS material to make a plant and then SCATTERS the seed over the face of the earth.

God GATHERED a family for Adam and then SCATTERED Cain away from Adam.

God gathered mankind and then SCATTERED, IN A FLOOD, the ones who chose demons; and then GATHERED Noah and his family in The Ark.

God GATHERED a family for Abraham and gave him a child of promise, but then SCATTERED Ismael from Abraham.

God gathered a family for Isaac, and then scattered the decedents of Esau, from Israel.

God GATHERED Lot, but then when Lot left and chose Sodom, God scattered his descendants from Israel.

God GATHERED Israel and brought them to His promised land, but then scattered those who chose to worship wood and stone instead of Him.

The examples are endless. This will go one until the final SCATTERING of the children of Satan when they are swept away when Jesus returns and GATHERS His Children.

The SCATTERING came first in the Big Bang. Then the force of gravity GATHERED matter into star systems.

This cycle has to take place for life to come about.

Lou Newton

This is a great observation, Lou. I wonder if there are any more scatterings and gatherings that echo the symmetry of Babel and Acts. Certainly all these examples are not only relevant to the gospel, but shadows of the heavenly reality.

I wonder, too, if this is represented in the book of Revelation.

[Baruch]

Hm. If you mean he doesn't believe in Calvin's predestination, I have seen him say that.

Blessings back.

This strays off topic, but I think it's worth tying up the loose end.

You may have read this and watched the couple videos. Heiser discusses in detail OT and NT election, salvation, and his understanding of predestination:

http://drmsh.com/the-naked-bible/election-posts/

[Lou Newton]

This is a great observation, Lou. I wonder if there are any more scatterings and gatherings that echo the symmetry of Babel and Acts. Certainly all these examples are not only relevant to the gospel, but shadows of the heavenly reality.

I wonder, too, if this is represented in the book of Revelation.

The Bible is full of examples of God Scattering and Gathering.

It is in The Revelation. First of all The Revelation is about The Revelation of The Lord Jesus and NOT about only future events as many think.

The first revelation of The Lord Jesus is in Genesis 1: 1 - In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The creation declares His Glory OR REVEALS His Glory. So the CREATION of the universe was the first Revelation of The Lord Jesus. The Creation ( the universe) is very large ( we can not see the end of it and we can see parts that are now probably 93 BILLION light years away) and beyond our ability to comprehend, just as God is beyond our ability to see and understand. The creation is very old and beyond our ability to comprehend it's age. Just as God is The Ancient of days and beyond our ability to comprehend that he has no beginning and no end. The Lord Jesus reveals His plan for mankind and His plan of salvation in Genesis 1. So like every good Author, God gives us a preview of what he is going to do in Genesis 1.

The Book of The Revelation is a SUMMARY of the Bible and of of the works of God. The Lord tells the same account THREE times. Each account is told from a different perspective and to a different audience. That is why all three are different, but are of the same events. This is why most everyone is confused by the Book.

The Lord tells of His return more than once in the Book. If one reads the whole book, it is clear that Jesus does the same as he did in the days of Noah. In the days of Noah, He first scattered the children of the Devil and they were swept away with the waters of the flood. Then The Lord used the same waters to save Noah. He lifted up the Ark ( a shadow of Christ) with these waters and saved Noah from the earthquakes and flood. Yes, Noah was lifted up, BUT he was not removed from the earth. For The Lord says the righteous will never be moved as it says in Ps 112:6 For the righteous will never be moved; he will be remembered forever.

It will be the same when The Lord returns. We will be lifted up in The Ark ( Christ) while He sweeps away the unrighteous. Then we will return to the earth with Him to be with Him for 1000 years. So The Lord scatters the unrighteous and gathers His children.

Lou Newton

[Lou Newton]

The Bible is full of examples of God Scattering and Gathering.

It is in The Revelation. First of all The Revelation is about The Revelation of The Lord Jesus and NOT about only future events as many think.

The first revelation of The Lord Jesus is in Genesis 1: 1 - In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The creation declares His Glory OR REVEALS His Glory. So the CREATION of the universe was the first Revelation of The Lord Jesus. The Creation ( the universe) is very large ( we can not see the end of it and we can see parts that are now probably 93 BILLION light years away) and beyond our ability to comprehend, just as God is beyond our ability to see and understand. The creation is very old and beyond our ability to comprehend it's age. Just as God is The Ancient of days and beyond our ability to comprehend that he has no beginning and no end. The Lord Jesus reveals His plan for mankind and His plan of salvation in Genesis 1. So like every good Author, God gives us a preview of what he is going to do in Genesis 1.

The Book of The Revelation is a SUMMARY of the Bible and of of the works of God. The Lord tells the same account THREE times. Each account is told from a different perspective and to a different audience. That is why all three are different, but are of the same events. This is why most everyone is confused by the Book.

The Lord tells of His return more than once in the Book. If one reads the whole book, it is clear that Jesus does the same as he did in the days of Noah. In the days of Noah, He first scattered the children of the Devil and they were swept away with the waters of the flood. Then The Lord used the same waters to save Noah. He lifted up the Ark ( a shadow of Christ) with these waters and saved Noah from the earthquakes and flood. Yes, Noah was lifted up, BUT he was not removed from the earth. For The Lord says the righteous will never be moved as it says in Ps 112:6 For the righteous will never be moved; he will be remembered forever.

It will be the same when The Lord returns. We will be lifted up in The Ark ( Christ) while He sweeps away the unrighteous. Then we will return to the earth with Him to be with Him for 1000 years. So The Lord scatters the unrighteous and gathers His children.

Lou Newton

I am disappointed that no one was interested enough to ask, how is The Revelation divided into three parts and where.

If I get enough inquiries, I will reopen the thread on The Revelation and post this info.

Lou