Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Did Lazarus Die Twice?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Did Lazarus Die Twice?

    I recently had an interesting conversation with a Christian friend of mine. Well into the conversation he asked me if I thought that Lazarus, the man Jesus had raised from the grave, died twice. He then cited this passage of Scripture from Hebrews 9:27 - "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"

    I told him that I was really stumped about this subject. Still am.

  • #2
    Define "die".

    Comment


    • #3
      Well, New Testament Greek leaves no ambiguity, Tom. And I acknowledge my reply was a bit goofy, but also a bit serious. When someone presents a word puzzle like that, I may wonder about definitions. But we'll assume the definition of the Greek as it's used in Heb 9:27.

      Joh 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

      Heb 9:27 uses the same root word, G599.

      God appoints the times and seasons. It seems that Lazarus was appointed to something special, as are no small number of those who were raised from the dead to walk for a continued space as the living.

      Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
      Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
      Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
      Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
      Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

      Heb 9:27 is in the context of pressing the point that Jesus' priesthood and sacrifice were the heavenly pattern of the ceremonial law. Unlike the recurring sacrifices by the Levites which could not remove sin, Jesus' sacrifice was once and for all, for the sins of all; and His death was commensurate with man's: a space of life, then death followed by the judgement. Jesus was innocent but suffered the judgement of a criminal, which is what was needed to satisfy the debt of the law on our behalf, we who could by no means obey the law. Those who look for Him will see Him the second time without sin, unto salvation: including Lazarus.

      Death is referred to euphemistically as sleep elsewhere. If man dies, who can wake him but God?

      God also sent the prophet Isaiah to declare to Hezekiah that he should get his affairs in order, because he was appointed to die. Hezekiah appealed to God and was given an extension. It may not seem as radical as raising the dead. But God cannot lie: Hezekiah was appointed to die. I mention this to point out that there are to us seeming contradictions, which are not contradictory to God. Maybe someone can offer a key to deeper understanding on such matters.
      Last edited by Baruch; October 25, 2015, 11:55 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        You got my wheels turning.

        It doesn't seem to be known where the notion of "once to die, but after this the judgement" originates. Perhaps it's a tradition, or from a lost Biblical text, or directly from the Holy Spirit to the pen of the writer of Hebrews. I think we can infer its truth from the Old Testament and parts of the Mosaic law.

        Yet, not only was Lazarus raised from the dead, but so were many others raised by Jesus and his disciples. So are there recent reports of it to this day. What this says to me is that there is a higher law of the Spirit at work. We have seen this often, where a higher law supersedes the letter of any law. And what could be higher than any letter, but love, mercy, grace, dominion of light over darkness to the glory of God.

        So...what about those will not taste death, but will see our Lord coming on the clouds in His glory, who will be caught up to meet Him in the air? These will not die, but be transformed in the blink of an eye.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Baruch View Post
          You got my wheels turning.

          It doesn't seem to be known where the notion of "once to die, but after this the judgement" originates. Perhaps it's a tradition, or from a lost Biblical text, or directly from the Holy Spirit to the pen of the writer of Hebrews. I think we can infer its truth from the Old Testament and parts of the Mosaic law.

          Yet, not only was Lazarus raised from the dead, but so were many others raised by Jesus and his disciples. So are there recent reports of it to this day. What this says to me is that there is a higher law of the Spirit at work. We have seen this often, where a higher law supersedes the letter of any law. And what could be higher than any letter, but love, mercy, grace, dominion of light over darkness to the glory of God.

          So...what about those will not taste death, but will see our Lord coming on the clouds in His glory, who will be caught up to meet Him in the air? These will not die, but be transformed in the blink of an eye.

          When they are transformed, does not their flesh die. They do not taste death in the normal way, but their flesh still dies. But since they do not go to the grave, they do not taste death.

          Certainly for a man to die twice, he first has to die once.

          Lazarus certainly dies once and was raised from the dead to die a second time.

          I do not know if the scripture says that every man dies ONLY once.

          Every man who was raised from the dead, was raised only to die again. Except for Jesus, who died and then raised Himself from the dead to eternal life.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Baruch View Post
            Define "die".
            Barry - I asked myself that same thing last night. Woke up this morning with the question still buzzing in my head. I'm going to crawl out on a long and slender limb here and opine that die, death, dead, etc., refers to the complete and total cessation of all physical life functions. Having been in the medical field for 20 years I know that many doctors today debate the definition of human death. So, in the context of this particular topic, I will defer to the definition of death with how the people in the 1st century considered it. And in researching several passages of Scripture, I confess that I am becoming a bit more stumped.

            Thus far -

            John 11:3-4:

            Therefore his (Lazarus') sisters sent unto him (Jesus), saying, Lord, behold, he whom thou lovest is sick.
            When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby. (parenthetical inclusions mine)

            John 11:11-14

            (Jesus said) Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
            Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
            Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
            Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. (parenthetical inclusions mine)

            John 11:17

            Then when Jesus came, he found that he (Lazarus) had lain in the grave four days already. (parenthetical inclusions mine)

            John 11:23-26

            Jesus saith unto her (Lazarus' sister Martha), Thy brother shall rise again.
            Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
            Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
            And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? (parenthetical inclusions mine)


            Okay - I am getting to a place on my limb where I'm thinking that Jesus does not see (assess) physical death in the same way that we sinful humans do.

            But - my branch may be swaying and creaking a bit.
            Last edited by Fisherman; October 26, 2015, 06:59 AM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Jesus Raises a Little Girl

              Mark 5:22-24

              And, behold, there cometh one of the rulers of the synagogue, Jairus by name; and when he saw him, he fell at his feet,
              And besought him greatly, saying, My little daughter lieth at the point of death: I pray thee, come and lay thy hands on her, that she may be healed; and she shall live.
              And Jesus went with him; and much people followed him, and thronged him.

              Mark 5:35-39

              While he yet spake, there came from the ruler of the synagogue's house certain which said, Thy daughter is dead: why troublest thou the Master any further?
              As soon as Jesus heard the word that was spoken, he saith unto the ruler of the synagogue, Be not afraid, only believe.
              And he suffered no man to follow him, save Peter, and James, and John the brother of James.
              And he cometh to the house of the ruler of the synagogue, and seeth the tumult, and them that wept and wailed greatly.
              And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.

              Mark 5:41-42

              And he took the damsel by the hand, and said unto her, Talitha cumi; which is, being interpreted, Damsel, I say unto thee, arise.
              And straightway the damsel arose, and walked; for she was of the age of twelve years. And they were astonished with a great astonishment.


              Saints Raised from the Dead After Jesus' Death

              Matthew 27:50-53

              Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
              And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
              And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
              And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

              Comment


              • #8
                Thanks, Tom and Lou. Your posts have me thinking. A few more to consider.

                2Ki 13:21 And it came to pass, as they were burying a man, that, behold, they spied a band of men; and they cast the man into the sepulchre of Elisha: and when the man was let down, and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood up on his feet.

                Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

                Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

                Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

                Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Fisherman View Post

                  Barry - I asked myself that same thing last night. Woke up this morning with the question still buzzing in my head. I'm going to crawl out on a long and slender limb here and opine that die, death, dead, etc., refers to the complete and total cessation of all physical life functions. Having been in the medical field for 20 years I know that many doctors today debate the definition of human death. So, in the context of this particular topic, I will defer to the definition of death with how the people in the 1st century considered it. And in researching several passages of Scripture, I confess that I am becoming a bit more stumped.

                  Thus far -

                  John 11:3-4:

                  Therefore his (Lazarus') sisters sent unto him (Jesus), saying, Lord, behold, he whom thou lovest is sick.
                  When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby. (parenthetical inclusions mine)

                  John 11:11-14

                  (Jesus said) Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
                  Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
                  Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
                  Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. (parenthetical inclusions mine)

                  John 11:17

                  Then when Jesus came, he found that he (Lazarus) had lain in the grave four days already. (parenthetical inclusions mine)

                  John 11:23-26

                  Jesus saith unto her (Lazarus' sister Martha), Thy brother shall rise again.
                  Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
                  Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
                  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? (parenthetical inclusions mine)


                  Okay - I am getting to a place on my limb where I'm thinking that Jesus does not see (assess) physical death in the same way that we sinful humans do.

                  But - my branch may be swaying and creaking a bit.

                  Hi Tom,

                  Jesus spoke of natural death as sleep, as you already pointed out. Jesus could not lie. He was not able to lie. Jesus is The Truth.

                  When Jesus spoke of the little girl who had died a natural death of her flesh, and said she was asleep, He was not lying and was certainly not joking. He was speaking the Truth.

                  Because we men put so much importance on the flesh, we look upon the death of the flesh as real death. But the death of the flesh is NOT real death. For the soul still lives on and if the person was born of God, so does the spirit.

                  God told Adam that when he ate of the tree, that he would die that day. He did not die in the flesh that day, for he lived in the flesh for 930 years.

                  But Adam did die in the spirit that day. Adam had walked and talked with The Lord everyday as The Lord came into the garden to visit Adam. They were friends. But when Adam stopped trusting The Lord and instead trusted Eve, he ate of the tree and died in the spirit. We know that he died in the spirit that day, because he hid from God for he was afraid of Him after he died in the spirit. I do not think Adam died from eating the fruit, but I think he died from deciding to stop trusting in God. He cut himself off from real Life by his own choice. God does not stay where He is not wanted. This was all Adam's doing, not God's. Adam had as much as said, I do not want to be friends with you anymore God, I want to be friends with Eve instead. He chose Eve over God, so God left Adam's spirit.

                  God had breathed the breath of life into Adam and in in doing that God created man. That breath of life was his Spirit, not a mere breath of air. Air alone can not give life, but the Spirit of God is LIFE. Adam had real life and was alive in the spirit. When Adam decided to cut himself off from God and cling to Eve instead, God left the spirit of Adam. Adam died that day in the spirit. That was real death. Adam died in the flesh many years later.

                  So when God speaks of the fact that there was no death until Adam sinned, He is speaking of REAL death, NOT natural death. When Adam sinned he died in the spirit, but not in the flesh.

                  Men walk in the flesh and look upon the death of the flesh as real death. They are dead in the spirit and do not consider the spirit.

                  The Lord is Spirit and we can only commune with Him in the spirit. Men who are dead in the spirit can not commune with Him. They have to be born of God and made alive in their spirit with His Spirit. Then they can commune with Him. That is REAL Life because it is eternal and never ends.

                  What men call life, or life of the flesh is not real life for it is temporary. It is NOT eternal.

                  So one could say Adam really died in the garden when he ate of the tree. It was real death. Many years later he died in the flesh and fell asleep for his soul still lived on.

                  How do we know that the soul lives on when the flesh dies. We know because Jesus said those who died in the flesh were asleep. When we sleep our soul is still conscious.

                  We also have the story of Jonah who died in the whale and still prayed while he was in the whale. He even recorded his prayer after The Lord had the whale beach itself and throw Jonah up and God raised him from the dead.

                  How do we know that Jonah was dead in the whale ? Well Jesus says this about Jonah:

                  Matthew 12 38 Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, "Teacher, we want to see a miraculous sign from you."
                  39 He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.
                  40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

                  Now we know that Jesus was dead for three days and nights in the earth, and Jesus said he would be in the earth as Jonah was in the fish. So Jonah was dead in the flesh, but his soul still prayed.


                  Also we have the book of Jonah:

                  Jonah 2 Jonah's Prayer

                  1From inside the fish Jonah prayed to the LORD his God.
                  2 He said: "In my distress I called to the LORD, and he answered me. From the depths of the grave I called for help, and you listened to my cry.
                  3 You hurled me into the deep, into the very heart of the seas, and the currents swirled about me; all your waves and breakers swept over me.
                  4 I said, 'I have been banished from your sight; yet I will look again toward your holy temple.'
                  5 The engulfing waters threatened me, the deep surrounded me; seaweed was wrapped around my head.
                  6 To the roots of the mountains I sank down; the earth beneath barred me in forever. But you brought my life up from the pit, O LORD my God.
                  7 "When my life was ebbing away, I remembered you, LORD, and my prayer rose to you, to your holy temple.
                  8 "Those who cling to worthless idols forfeit the grace that could be theirs.
                  9 But I, with a song of thanksgiving, will sacrifice to you. What I have vowed I will make good. Salvation comes from the LORD."
                  10 And the LORD commanded the fish, and it vomited Jonah onto dry land.

                  Just as Jesus dies and then He raised Himself from the dead, Jonah was dead in the fish and The Lord raised him from the dead.

                  So one could say that Jonah was asleep in the whale as he was dead in the flesh, but still alive in the soul.

                  I say all this to show that every man has to die once.

                  He either does not hang onto his life and gives His life to Jesus, and DIES to himself, OR he will certainly die an eternal death later.

                  We are all walking dead men and do not have life in the spirit. Those that give up their life to The Lord are born of God and then have eternal life. They will never die again, although they will sleep. They have already died once when they gave up their life to Jesus.

                  Those that hang onto their life will die and eternal death when their flesh falls asleep. For their spirit is dead and they do not have real life.

                  So it is appointed for every man to die once. Every man chooses how he will die. He either gives up his life to The Lord and dies to himself, and then never dies again; OR they hang onto their life and they will die an eternal death.

                  Death in the spirit is REAL death and it is eternal. Death in the flesh is not real death and it is not eternal.

                  Years ago The Lord spoke to me:

                  He showed me this vision of two rose bushes. I could only see the top of the bushes and could not see the bottoms. One bush looked dead and the other looked alive with beautiful red roses on it. The Lord asked me, which bush is alive son ? I answered I do not know. Because I can not see the roots or the branches, but I can only see the stems with dead leaves on one and what look like live roses on the other.

                  Then The Lord showed me the bottom on the bushes. The one that looked dead was planted in the ground and the stems were connected to the branches and the roots. The stems that looked alive had been cut off from their branches and roots.

                  I then said, the ones cut off look alive, but they are dead. The ones that look dead are still alive for they will bloom in their season. The roses that looked alive would soon be dead and would never look alive again. The ones that looked dead would come to life again.

                  The Lord then said, men are the same. Many that look alive are really dead, because they are cut off from The Branch, and I am that Branch. No one has Life without being in communion with me, for I am Life. Nothing has Life without my Spirit.

                  Some men look dead, but they are alive, because they are connected to the Branch. I am The Branch and everyone connected to me has eternal Life and will never die again.

                  Every man has to die once. He can give up his life to Jesus and die to himself and then live forever, never to die again; OR he can hang onto his life and then die an eternal death.

                  You can read about the two kinds of death here:

                  http://forum.lounewton.com/forum/lou...kinds-of-death

                  Lou Newton

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Henry Gruver gives testimony of his own death in an automobile accident. No one survives a wound like he had, a large puncture through the top of the head into the nasal cavity. He was dead. The paramedics pronounced him dead after trying CPR, and gave a (pretty gross and) fatal description. It is an amazing testimony. I'll see if I can find it and post it.

                    He got up and went straight to his daughter's wedding, having been revived and healed by the Lord in the presence of a number of witnesses. Henry is walking around today doing the Lord's work still.

                    Clearly the first death is not as firm as we have been led to (un)believe.

                    Yet, Hindus and Theosophists, et al, shouldn't take any of this as suggestive that man has any power over death outside of God and His Christ.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Lou Newton View Post
                      Hi Tom,

                      Jesus spoke of natural death as sleep, as you already pointed out. Jesus could not lie. He was not able to lie. Jesus is The Truth.

                      When Jesus spoke of the little girl who had died a natural death of her flesh, and said she was asleep, He was not lying and was certainly not joking. He was speaking the Truth.

                      [...]

                      http://forum.lounewton.com/forum/lou...kinds-of-death

                      Lou Newton[/FONT][/COLOR]
                      Excellent. Just wanted to say that 'cause it is, and I'm unable to continue the discussion until later.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Lou - thanks for the response. I had read your previous writing about the two kinds of death some time ago. Very good presentation. My initial post was with regard to physical death - which all humanity has to experience. Both the saved and unsaved have to go through a physical death. The Scriptures certainly mention a physical death as well a spiritual death - which you wrote about. I'm on board with that. Yet the Scriptures also seem to indicate that even after the physical death, a tangible spirit of some sort still exists.

                        1 Peter 3:18-20 says the following - For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.

                        This, at least to me, appears as if those who had physically perished in that period of time were later visited by Jesus after His death (and resurrection) and that their previously disobedient spirits were presented the Truth by Him.

                        Studying and praying on all of this.
                        Last edited by Fisherman; October 26, 2015, 11:25 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Lou - just to be clear - my initial post was with regard to physical death. I understand what you wrote concerning physical/spiritual deaths. Obviously Lazarus was a living, breathing man in the 1st century, then he became physically sick and died physically. Then he was physically resurrected by Jesus. So it stands to reason that somewhere down the road Lazarus physically died again. That was the context of my question from the initial post.
                          Last edited by Fisherman; October 26, 2015, 03:55 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I guess the initial question should be reconfigured this way - Did Lazarus and others in the Bible who physically died and were later physically raised from death, physically die again? If so, then why?
                            Last edited by Fisherman; October 26, 2015, 12:43 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
                              I guess the initial question should be reconfigured this way - Did Lazarus and others in the Bible who physically died and were later physically raised from death, physically die again? If so, then why?
                              Enjoying this thread, guys...

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X