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  • The Woman is Revelation 12

    Here is an article written by Thomas Ice about the woman is Revelation 12. I responded to his article years ago on another web site. My response is on post # 2 and post # 3


    The Woman in Revelation 12

    By Thomas Ice

    And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; she was with child; and she cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth. - Revelation 12:12

    Down through church history virtually all Christian interpreters of Revelation 12 have understood the symbol of the woman in labor as the church. This began to change about 200 years ago when literal hermeneutics were more rigorously applied to the Book of Revelation and Bible Prophecy in general. It took this long for some within the church to begin to overcome the stranglehold that replacement theology or supersessionism had on the church. For most of her history, when Christians read biblical passages, they automatically assumed that it was referring to them and the church. Most have thought that the church has forever replaced Israel and that Israel, as a nation, has no future. This is why a correct understanding of who the woman in Revelation 12 represents is a watershed issue for understanding Revelation as a whole.

    How to Interpret Symbols

    Revelation 12 is said by some to be the most symbolic chapter in the most symbolic book in the New Testament. That may very well be true! Even though symbols are used to tell the prophetic story of Israel, the symbols are clear when interpreted by comparing Scripture with Scripture. Arnold Fruchtenbaum rightly tells us "that every symbol in the Revelation is explained either elsewhere in the Revelation itself or somewhere else in the Bible."1 In this passage, as well as throughout the Book of Revelation, symbols represent literal, historical persons, places or things. John MacArthur says, "The literal approach to interpreting Scripture allows for normal use of symbolic language, but understands that it points to a literal reality."2 We use symbols for athletic teams. The Bears beat the Lions, 3521. It is understood that both teams had humans playing for their squads, but their team mascots are bears and lions. The same approach is used in many prophetic sections of both the Old and New Testaments where symbols are used of people and kingdoms.3 "The symbols used in this book are taken from the Scriptures themselves and thus do not allow arbitrary interpretations to be imposed upon them."4

    Why The Woman Refers to Israel

    Who does the woman of Revelation 12 symbolize? While Catholics and most replacement theologians believe that the woman in this passage is the Church, even preterists like Gary DeMar are able to realize that the biblical symbolism of Genesis 37:911 demands that Revelation 12 uses it to refer to Israel.5 However, preterist err in seeing it as a reference to Israel in the past and not including the future. How can we be sure that the woman represents Israel?

    First, the context immediately preceding chapter 12 sets the stage for our view, as well as the larger context of the entire Book of Revelation. "And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened; and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm" (Rev. 11:19). The ark of the covenant is never associated with the church but always with the nation of Israel. This gives a Jewish flavor to the context and prepares the way for God's disclosure about Israel in chapter 12.

    Second, Israel is often represented throughout the Old Testament as a woman (Isa. 26:18;47:79; 54:16; 66:78; Jer. 4:31; 31:32; Lam. 1:1; Ezek.16:32; Hosea 2:16; Micah 4:910; 5:13). John Walvoord says, "In the Old Testament, Israel frequently is presented as the wife of Jehovah, often in her character as being unfaithful to her husband. Here the godly remnant of Israel is standing true to God in the time of the great tribulation."6 This fits into the overall motif since this woman gives birth to a son.

    Third, John's reference to the sun, moon, and stars in his description of the woman relates to similar descriptions of Israel in the Old Testament (see Gen. 37: 911). In Genesis 37 the sun refers to Jacob, "who stood in the lineage to inherit the blessings of the "Abrahamic covenant."7 The moon represents Rachel, Jacob's wife and the matriarch of the 12 tribes of Israel. The 11 stars in Genesis 37 refer to the sons of Jacob (the 12th star to whom the 11 bow is Joseph, thus 12 stars) and the 12 tribes of Israel or Jacob. This is "a clear reference to the twelve tribes of Israel, not only in Joseph's dream (cf. Gen. 37:910), but also by comparison with the twelve tribes in Rev.7:58 and 21:12."8 J. Dwight Pentecost also points out other Old Testament passages "where heavenly bodies are associated with Israel's history" (see Josh. 10:1214; Jud. 10:1214; Ps.89:3537; Jer. 31:3536).9

    Fourth, it is Israel and not the church that gives birth to the male child (verse 5) within biblical imagery. Paul confirms this when writing concerning the Israelites, "from whom is the Christ according to the flesh" (Rom. 9:5). It is obvious the male child refers to Christ since Revelation 12:5 says He will rule the nations with a rod of iron (Ps. 2:9). Jesus is also said to rule with a rod of iron in Revelation 2:27 and 19:15. John 4:22 also tells us that "salvation is from the Jews," which means that redemption came through the nation of Israel in the form of their Messiah - the male child.

    Fifth, since we're dealing with the male child of 12:5, then we should note a parallelism between Revelation 12 and Micah 5 that supports the notion that the woman in Revelation refers to Israel.

    The parallelism between Revelation 12 and Micah 5 helps to identify the woman as Israel. In Micah 5:2 is recorded the birth of the ruler. The rejection of this ruler results in the setting aside of the nation ("therefore will he give them up," Mic. 5:3). The nation will be in travail "until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth" (Mic. 5:3), that is, until the accomplishment of God's purpose. The same program is outlined in Revelation 12.10

    Sixth, a comparison of Revelation 12:79 with Daniel 12:17 confirms the identification of the woman as Israel. Gary Cohen notes:
    In Revelation 12, we see a woman being persecuted by Satan, and Michael the archangel at this time fights against Satan (vv. 79). Likewise, in Daniel 12:1 when Daniel's people are said to be in their "time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation," a time lasting 3 years (3 times - Dan 12:7), Michael "shall . . . stand up" and contend for Israel, Daniel's people. Thus both Revelation 12 and Daniel 12 show Michael contending against Satan concerning the 3 year Great Tribulation of Israel.11
    Seventh, John's reference to the woman's flight into the wilderness (verse 14) is reminiscent of Israel's past wilderness experiences. As in the Exodus Israel was carried on "eagles' wings" and protected from the Egyptians (Exod. 19:4) so also the woman will be carried to a place of protection - the "wilderness" (verse 14). Just as the nation was sustained by the manna during the wilderness wandering, so the woman is "nourished" in the wilderness. As the wilderness in Israel's past has been a place of God's protection and provision, so it will be in Israel's future. God will preserve a remnant. It should be noted that the flight of the woman to the wilderness is the same flight indicated by Jesus in Matthew 24:16 where those in Judea are warned to flee into the mountains. Those heeding Christ's warning will find protection, but the rest will perish. Of Israel God said, "I will allure her, bring her into the wilderness, and speak kindly to her" (Hos. 2:14). Revelation 12 illustrates God's faithfulness in caring for Israel even in the most difficult of times known as the great tribulation.

    Eighth, when the woman is taken to refer to Israel, it harmonizes all of the imagery throughout the rest of Revelation 12. However, if the woman refers to Mary, then when did she flee into the wilderness for 3 years? If it is a reference to the church or the people of God (including Gentiles) then when did the church give birth to Jesus or flee into the wilderness so that the Dragon made war with the rest of her offspring?

    "All this is seen in connection with Israel; for God intends, as far as this world is concerned, all power and glory to circle round Israel," notes William Kelly. "As for the church, she will have all in perfection with Christ, and in Christ; but as far as the earth is concerned, Israel will be the center. The woman is the symbol of God's purpose as bound up with Israel."12 Maranatha!

    - See more at: http://www.worldviewweekends.com/wor....iFtrfcOW.dpuf
    Last edited by Travis; September 25, 2014, 11:53 PM.

  • #2
    Is the Devil in the line of Jesus ?

    IS THE DEVIL IN THE LINE OF JESUS

    Posted On: 01/13/10 08:03:39 AM Age 66, OH

    Replacement Theology is a silly term. Any sane person can look on the map or watch the news and see that there is not only a nation of Israel, but that God has caused much attention to come to this tiny nation. Also God has always protected the children of the men who trusted and served Him. God promised Abraham that He would cause a nation to come from him. Israel is the proof that God fulfilled that promise.

    God promised Abraham two kinds of children. Children as the sands of the sea shore AND children as the stars of the sky.
    The nation of Israel are the children of the sands of the sea shore. But the seed came through the children of the stars of the sky. Tamar was not born of Israel, but she was in the line that brought forth the Man child Jesus. Rahab was from Jericho and also a prostitute, but because she trusted God to save her, she was also one to bring forth the Man child Jesus. Ruth was from Moab and the descendants of Moab were not allowed in the temple for ten generations. But the son of Ruth, David, became the King of Israel. Ruth also birthed another Son, whose name was Jesus. These woman all brought forth the man child Jesus, but none were the natural children of Abraham. These three women all have a more legitimate claim to being the woman in the heavens clothed with the sun and brought forth a man child, than the nation of Israel. How can this be true. These three women are children of Abraham. For Abraham was the father of their faith. They are his children as the stars of the sky. The seeds came through these children and not the natural children.

    Jesus spoke this about the pharisees who were natural children, John 8:44 You belong to YOUR FATHER, THE DEVIL, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. -

    Lou Newton - See more at: http://www.worldviewweekends.com/wor....KpodhSYB.dpuf

    PS - So if as Thomas Ice claims, the nation of Israel is the women in Rev 12, then the Pharisees would be part of that woman. But Jesus said their father was the Devil. So that would put the Devil himself in the line of the woman that brought forth Jesus. This is simply a ridiculous claim.
    Last edited by Lou Newton; September 26, 2014, 12:39 AM.

    Comment


    • #3
      Who is the Light of the world ?

      WHO IS THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD - by Lou Newton

      Posted On: 01/12/10 10:56:59 PM Age 66, OH

      Thomas, Who is the light of the world. Is it not The Lord Jesus. The sun is the natural light of the world. So the sun is the symbol of the Lord Jesus. In Genesis 1 the sun rules the day as Jesus rules the children of the day. In Josephs dream the sun is a sign of Jacob not as a nation, but it is a sign of Jacob as the father. His being the father parallels the Heavenly Father God who is light and there is no darkness in.

      The women ( in Rev 12) is clothed with the sun and the moon at her feet. The sun is Jesus Christ the light of the world. has the nation of Israel ever been clothed with Christ or is it now. The Nation of Israel did not bring Christ into the world. Christ was the seed of promise who came forth from the children of promise.

      It was only one son that the promise came through and not all sons
      . Abraham had children of the sands and children of the stars. The children of the sands were the earthly children. The children of the stars were the children who had Abraham as the father of their faith.

      It was not a woman at all in the revelation but it was a SIGN in the heavens. It was a sign that God caused in the heavens to announce the birth of our Lord. The woman was Mary and the Dragon who tried to devour the child was Herod. Does the nation of Israel now birth Christ. The sign in the heavens further spoke of the children of Abraham that made him the father of their faith and they would birth Christ. The dragon is Satan who tries to devour this child so to speak. The moon is the church and does the Nation of Israel have the church at her feet.

      There is NO REPLACEMENT OF THE NATION OF ISRAEL. THAT WOULD BE SILLY. ALL CAN SEE IT ON THE MAP AND HEAR ABOUT IT IN THE NEWS. But there has always been two Israels. One of the sands and the other of the stars. It is the one of the stars that Jesus is returning for. After all there in no one in the nation of Israel that is excluded from accepting The Lord Jesus as their Savior. Any Jew can become a child of the stars. -

      Lou Newton - See more at: http://www.worldviewweekends.com/wor....KpodhSYB.dpuf
      Last edited by Lou Newton; September 26, 2014, 12:44 AM.

      Comment


      • #4
        The Radiant Woman

        Here is the only other post that I found worth coping. This was written by George Cancilla

        The Radiant Woman

        Posted On: 01/08/10 08:19:25 PM Age 63, MO
        The radiant woman of Revelation 12 symbolizes the Church, which does not presuppose a "replacement" theology. Scripture emphasizes that the Church is one and the same in both the Old and New Testaments. And, just as there is no "replacement" theology, there is no "dual covenant" theology. The Church is composed of one chosen people in Christ: Abraham is the father of all believers, whether they be Jew or Gentile: all are God's chosen people, Israel. The church on earth may appear to be insignificant and filled with scorn and ridicule, but the Church Jesus is building is glorious from the aspect of heaven: she is clothed in the sun. George Cancilla - See more at: http://www.worldviewweekends.com/wor....KpodhSYB.dpuf
        Last edited by Lou Newton; September 25, 2014, 02:22 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Lou Newton View Post
          IS THE DEVIL IN THE LINE OF JESUS

          Posted On: 01/13/10 08:03:39 AM Age 66, OH

          Replacement Theology is a silly term. Any sane person can look on the map or watch the news and see that there is not only a nation of Israel, but that God has caused much attention to come to this tiny nation. Also God has always protected the children of the men who trusted and served Him. God promised Abraham that He would cause a nation to come from him. Israel is the proof that God fulfilled that promise.

          God promised Abraham two kinds of children. Children as the sands of the sea shore AND children as the stars of the sky.
          The nation of Israel are the children of the sands of the sea shore. But the seed came through the children of the stars of the sky. Tamar was not born of Israel, but she was in the line that brought forth the Man child Jesus. Rahab was from Jericho and also a prostitute, but because she trusted God to save her, she was also one to bring forth the Man child Jesus. Ruth was from Moab and the descendants of Moab were not allowed in the temple for ten generations. But the son of Ruth, David, became the King of Israel. Ruth also birthed another Son, whose name was Jesus. These woman all brought forth the man child Jesus, but none were the natural children of Abraham. These three women all have a more legitimate claim to being the woman in the heavens clothed with the sun and brought forth a man child, than the nation of Israel. How can this be true. These three women are children of Abraham. For Abraham was the father of their faith. They are his children as the stars of the sky. The seeds came through these children and not the natural children.

          Jesus spoke this about the pharisees who were natural children, John 8:44 You belong to YOUR FATHER, THE DEVIL, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. -

          Lou Newton

          PS - So if as Thomas Ice claims, the nation of Israel is the women in Rev 12, then the Pharisees would be part of that woman. But Jesus said their father was the Devil. So that would put the Devil himself in the line of the woman that brought forth Jesus. This is simply a ridiculous claim.
          Hi Lou,

          This makes sense when I read it. There are two types of offspring which come forth from Abraham, those which are as the sands of the sea shore, and those that are as the stars of sky. It doesn't get much more simple than that.
          Daniel 12:3
          And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

          I've always thought the term replacement theology was kind of funny, and more and more I think that the ideas surrounding it are kind of odd as well.

          Grace to you,

          Travis

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Travis View Post
            Hi Lou,

            This makes sense when I read it. There are two types of offspring which come forth from Abraham, those which are as the sands of the sea shore, and those that are as the stars of sky. It doesn't get much more simple than that.
            Daniel 12:3
            And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

            I've always thought the term replacement theology was kind of funny, and more and more I think that the ideas surrounding it are kind of odd as well.

            Grace to you,

            Travis
            Thanks for the kind reply Travis. I agree that this is a very simple truth, But those how have already made their mind up, can not see this simple truth.

            There are two groups of people in the world, those that trust Jesus to save them , and those that do not. This has always been true and always will be true.

            Lou

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Lou Newton View Post
              It was not a woman at all in the revelation but it was a SIGN in the heavens. It was a sign that God caused in the heavens to announce the birth of our Lord. The woman was Mary and the Dragon who tried to devour the child was Herod. Does the nation of Israel now birth Christ. The sign in the heavens further spoke of the children of Abraham that made him the father of their faith and they would birth Christ. The dragon is Satan who tries to devour this child so to speak. The moon is the church and does the Nation of Israel have the church at her feet.
              Lou,

              So, this sign points to the past in the woman Mary who gave birth to our Savior. But also, it is the children of Abraham (those who have faith) who are the ones who gave birth to the Christ as well in another sense.

              One question though, what is the crown of 12 stars on her head?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Travis View Post
                Lou,

                So, this sign points to the past in the woman Mary who gave birth to our Savior. But also, it is the children of Abraham (those who have faith) who are the ones who gave birth to the Christ as well in another sense.

                One question though, what is the crown of 12 stars on her head?
                Hi Travis,

                Mary was born through those whom had trusted Jesus to save them ( or had the same faith that Abraham had) so the woman is much more than just Mary, it is The Body of Christ. She is clothed ( covered ) with the Sun. The Sun is Jesus. She is covered by His blood. We all birth Christ in others by pointing others to Christ.

                The Woman and the Dragon
                1 A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.
                The Father The Son, and The Holy Spirit are the three ways that God appears to us.

                The Ox, The Lion, The Man, The Eagle are the four ways God works.

                3 + 4 = 7 Spirits of God

                But the Father works all four ways - that is 4

                The Son works all four ways - that is 4 more

                The Holy Spirit also works in all four ways - that is four more

                That totals to 12 - or 3 x 4 = 12

                That is why there are 12 tribes of Israel and Jesus had 12 disciples

                Those are the 12 stars on her head
                Last edited by Lou Newton; September 26, 2014, 04:43 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Lou Newton View Post
                  Hi Travis,

                  Mary was born through those whom had trusted Jesus to save them ( or had the same faith that Abraham had) so the woman is much more than just Mary, it is The Body of Christ. She is clothed ( covered ) with the Sun. The Sun is Jesus. She is covered by His blood. We all birth Christ in others by pointing others to Christ.
                  Matthew 12:50
                  For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.


                  Originally posted by Lou Newton View Post
                  The Father The Son, and The Holy Spirit are the three ways that God appears to us.

                  The Ox, The Lion, The Man, The Eagle are the four ways God works.

                  3 + 4 = 7 Spirits of God

                  But the Father works all four ways - that is 4

                  The Son works all four ways - that is 4 more

                  The Holy Spirit also works in all four ways - that is four more

                  That totals to 12 - or 3 x 4 = 12

                  That is why there are 12 tribes of Israel and Jesus had 12 disciples

                  Those are the 12 stars on her head
                  Glad I asked

                  The crown on her head then is a gift, a free gift. "He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Travis View Post
                    Matthew 12:50
                    For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.




                    Glad I asked

                    The crown on her head then is a gift, a free gift. "He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?"
                    Amen and amen Travis. Thanks so much for adding the scriptures.

                    Lou

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Lou,

                      Thanks for starting this thread. I greatly appreciated your two responses to Thomas Ice. Your insight regarding the Woman in Rev 12 is yet another confirmation to me that the modern teachings that comprise Dispensationalism are weak theories and doctrines of men, at best.

                      Blane

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Blane View Post
                        Lou,

                        Thanks for starting this thread. I greatly appreciated your two responses to Thomas Ice. Your insight regarding the Woman in Rev 12 is yet another confirmation to me that the modern teachings that comprise Dispensationalism are weak theories and doctrines of men, at best.

                        Blane
                        Thanks Blane,

                        Confusion comes from dividing people into the two groups of Israel and the Church.

                        Obviously everyone does not belong to one of those two groups. Gentile atheists and false Christians do not belong to either group.

                        Everyone is either of the group that trusts Jesus to save them, or the group that does not trust Jesus to save them.

                        You can not name anyone that is not in one group or the other of the above.

                        More proof comes from this fact: Abraham had many children. But not all of his children were part of Israel, or children of the promise. Only Isaac was the child of promise. Ishmael was Abraham's son, and his descendants became enemies of Israel.

                        Isaac had TWO sons but only Jacob wrestled with God and was named Israel by God. ( Israel means one who has power with God) Esau's descendants became an enemy of God and worshipper of idols.

                        But all of these children are either of the faith of Abraham or they are NOT of his faith.

                        The Pharisees saw Jesus raise the dead and heal the blind, yet they called him Satan, instead of trusting Him to save them. They were NOT true Israel. Their father was the Devil, as Jesus told them.

                        The woman is the true Body of Christ. All those who trust Jesus to save them. From Enoch, Methuselah, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Judah, Moses, Joshua, Samuel, David, and the prophets - to Peter, John, Paul, and all those who trust Jesus to save them.

                        After all, Paul tells us that we gentiles are grafted into the tree and we are part of true Israel. So the woman is TRUE Israel, but does not include the children of Abraham that did not trust Jesus to save them.

                        Romans 11
                        Ingrafted Branches
                        11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring! 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. 22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
                        Most of those who claim to be part of Israel AND many of those who claim to be in the church of Jesus Christ are in the same group. They trust in something other than the blood of Jesus to save them.

                        Lou Newton

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          We have not heard from so many on this thread. There must still be some questions about this. Please ask your question. You can always send me a private message about your question and I will answer it on the thread without revealing who asked it.

                          You can even say, I still don't get it. Let me know what you do understand and where we lost you.

                          It is important that everyone sees the truth of this matter to be able to understand the book.

                          Lou

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I get it. Thank you, Lou, for the elegant presentation. And Travis, for the confirming scriptures. Just wow. Simple when the explanation comes; but way too complex for the mere human brain and eye to piece together. Thanks be that we have God to show us.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Baruch View Post
                              I get it. Thank you, Lou, for the elegant presentation. And Travis, for the confirming scriptures. Just wow. Simple when the explanation comes; but way too complex for the mere human brain and eye to piece together. Thanks be that we have God to show us.
                              Thank you Baruch.............these replies encourage me to write.................Lou

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