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  • Was Adam born ?

    I thought you may find this discussion interesting and profitable:

    The more mature a man is the older he is. When corn gets too old, people say it is too mature.

    But Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, NO ONE can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again." So if Adam was not born, he could not be born again. So are you saying that Adam could not enter the Kingdom of God. Jesus speaks with perfection. What Jesus said is TRUE is every case, there is no exception, or it would not be totally true. What Jesus said can never ONCE fail. EVERY man must be born again. Therefore Adam must have been born, so that he could be born again. Jesus is just and full of mercy. Certainly we know that Adam could enter the Kingdom. So Adam had to be born, so that he could be born again. Find me in scripture where it says Adam was not born ! It is NOT there. You are assuming, that is not faith. We are to believe the scriptures, not the traditions of men.

    You are making assumptions that are simply not in the scriptures. The scriptures interpret the scriptures. We know that Adam was born, so that he was able to be born again, like all men are given the opportunity to make peace with God.

    Adam was never perfect. That is another false assumption made by many. Only God is perfect. Adam was given the opportunity to be perfect, by being given the opportunity to chose to obey God. BUT HE FAILED and sinned. Perfection can not fail. For if a bridge fails it was NOT perfect. Adam was created INNOCENT, that is the ability to chose to be righteous. Please dear brother, show me the scripture that says Adam was created perfect.

    Adam was created in the IMAGE of God. I am a example of a man. But my photo is an image of a man, and not an example of a man at all. We are but an image of God, not God. He alone is perfect in all of His ways. We are all sinners worthy of eternal destruction. It is only by the perfect mercy and justice of the Lord Jesus, that we are able to be saved and be with Him forever.

    Adam failed, did he not. Perfection can not fail. Certainly God is perfect. God can not fail. Adam failed, therefore he was not perfect.


    Lou Newton

    Find the rest of the discussion here:

    https://disqus.com/home/discussion/c...ent-2101297427

  • #2
    Originally posted by Lou Newton View Post
    I thought you may find this discussion interesting and profitable:

    The more mature a man is the older he is. When corn gets too old, people say it is too mature.

    But Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, NO ONE can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again." So if Adam was not born, he could not be born again. So are you saying that Adam could not enter the Kingdom of God. Jesus speaks with perfection. What Jesus said is TRUE is every case, there is no exception, or it would not be totally true. What Jesus said can never ONCE fail. EVERY man must be born again. Therefore Adam must have been born, so that he could be born again. Jesus is just and full of mercy. Certainly we know that Adam could enter the Kingdom. So Adam had to be born, so that he could be born again. Find me in scripture where it says Adam was not born ! It is NOT there. You are assuming, that is not faith. We are to believe the scriptures, not the traditions of men.

    You are making assumptions that are simply not in the scriptures. The scriptures interpret the scriptures. We know that Adam was born, so that he was able to be born again, like all men are given the opportunity to make peace with God.

    Adam was never perfect. That is another false assumption made by many. Only God is perfect. Adam was given the opportunity to be perfect, by being given the opportunity to chose to obey God. BUT HE FAILED and sinned. Perfection can not fail. For if a bridge fails it was NOT perfect. Adam was created INNOCENT, that is the ability to chose to be righteous. Please dear brother, show me the scripture that says Adam was created perfect.

    Adam was created in the IMAGE of God. I am a example of a man. But my photo is an image of a man, and not an example of a man at all. We are but an image of God, not God. He alone is perfect in all of His ways. We are all sinners worthy of eternal destruction. It is only by the perfect mercy and justice of the Lord Jesus, that we are able to be saved and be with Him forever.

    Adam failed, did he not. Perfection can not fail. Certainly God is perfect. God can not fail. Adam failed, therefore he was not perfect.


    Lou Newton

    Find the rest of the discussion here:

    https://disqus.com/home/discussion/c...ent-2101297427
    Here is another question that is closely related:

    Why did God say that He both, CREATED Adam and MADE Adam ?

    Genesis 1
    26Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

    27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

    7
    the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Lou Newton View Post
      Here is another question that is closely related:

      Why did God say that He both, CREATED Adam and MADE Adam ?

      Genesis 1
      26Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

      27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

      7
      the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
      Facts we know about Adam:

      1 - Adam was CREATED by God

      27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

      2 - Adam was MADE by God

      26Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

      3 - Adam was the first man

      45 So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.
      46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual.
      47 The first man was of the dust of the earth,the second man from heaven.
      48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.
      49And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven.
      50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

      4 - Adam's father was God

      38
      the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God. - Notice not a begotten son, like Jesus Christ.

      5 - An attribute of God is listed here as having no father and no mother in Heb 7

      Melchizedek the Priest

      1 This Melchizedek was king of Salem and priest of God Most High. He met Abraham returning from the defeat of the kings and blessed him,
      2 and Abraham gave him a tenth of everything. First, his name means "king of righteousness"; then also, "king of Salem" means "king of peace."
      3 Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he remains a priest forever.
      4 Just think how great he was: Even the patriarch Abraham gave him a tenth of the plunder!
      5 Now the law requires the descendants of Levi who become priests to collect a tenth from the people--that is, their brothers--even though their brothers are descended from Abraham.
      6 This man, however, did not trace his descent from Levi, yet he collected a tenth from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises.
      7 And without doubt the lesser person is blessed by the greater.
      8 In the one case, the tenth is collected by men who die; but in the other case, by him who is declared to be living.
      9 One might even say that Levi, who collects the tenth, paid the tenth through Abraham,
      10 because when Melchizedek met Abraham, Levi was still in the body of his ancestor.

      So it seems Adam had to be born again and it seems maybe only God has no father and no mother, or why would God list that as an attribute of Him. Why would God list an attribute that did NOT identify Him from mankind.

      Jesus could have said, every man except Adam must be born again.

      OR Jesus could have said every man must be born of the Spirit to enter the kingdom of heaven

      But Jesus said everyone must be born again to enter

      The question remains, how could Adam be born again, unless he was first born into this world ?


      Lou Newton





      Comment


      • #4
        A reply from Glen Smith

        It is well that there is distinguished between Adam as innocent and not perfect. Conceivably, Adam may have performed what would at a latter time be displeasing or even a sin. However, there was not the law to point out sin (see Galatians 3:19).1

        Does Adam have to be born of a women or some other unimaginable way to be “born again?” There is an issue about the Lord’s use of “born again.” If the reader of the Lord’s words accepts them as having a literal meaning, then this argument has weight. The question asked by Nicodemus, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” assumes a literal meaning.
        But, if “born again” is a figure of speech describing a spiritual realty similar to “new creation,”2 then, the recorded answer in John 3 that the Lord Jesus gave to Nicodemus makes sense.
        10 Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.

        The words of the Lord, “born again” are spiritual words (“heavenly things”) and their meaning is given in His answer. John 3:15 records the Lord as defining who will enter the Kingdom of God by being “born again.” It seems to me to “enter the Kingdom of God” and “whoever believes in him may have eternal life” are different ways of saying the same thing. One does not occur without the other. “Born again” is not about the first birth. If a person hears the words of the Lord, then he is alive, and the figure of speech to be “born again” is spiritually applicable.

        1 Peter 1:3 describes being born again as “born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.” In this same chapter verse 23 the Apostle Peter declares,23 “since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God.” It is clear from this chapter in 1 Peter that the new birth is being begotten of God.

        Here again “born again” is a figure of speech which does not mean that a spiritual birth is happening again, but that it happens for the first time by an act of God. One is born of the flesh, but he must be born of the spirit to see the Kingdom of God.

        I fail to see how the figure of speech “born again” provides any information about Adam since Adam’s faith could be spoken of figuratively as “born again.”


        FOOTNOTES:

        1.Galatians 3:19
        NASB
        9 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.
        PHILLIPS
        19-20 Where then lies the point of the Law? It was an addition made to underline the existence and extent of sin until the arrival of the “seed” to whom the promise referred. The Law was inaugurated in the presence of angels and by the hand of a human intermediary. The very fact that there was an intermediary is enough to show that this was not the fulfilling of the promise. For the promise of God needs neither angelic witness nor human intermediary but depends on him alone.

        2. new creation – New creation is beyond anything man could accomplish. Accordingly, the meaning must be an act of God – a Redemptive act.

        2 Corinthians 5:17
        Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

        Galatians 6:15
        For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.
        Hi Glen;

        Thank you so much for your reply. It is when we discuss these questions that The Lord reveals the truth to us all.

        Certainly I do not, like Nicodemus, think Jesus was speaking of being born again in the flesh the second time. We all know that Jesus was speaking a spiritual birth the second time. And it was not a mere figure of speech. I was literally born from death to life in my spirit. My spirit was dead, and The Holy Spirit of The Lord Jesus entered my spirit and my spirit was brought from death to life. That was a real event and literal.

        But when Jesus is referring to a second birth, he is also referring to a first birth, which is of the flesh. Certainly no one thinks Jesus was not referring to the first birth as of the flesh. And certainly every human must be born the FIRST time of the flesh ( with the exception of Adam who we are discussing this question about).

        So one can argue that Jesus is speaking of two literal events. The first birth of the flesh, which every human being has, including Jesus Christ.

        Even Jesus, who is God Almighty did NOT become human without being born of the flesh. That had to take place for Him to be human. If this was necessary for Jesus, then why not Adam. The Manhood of Jesus had a mother. The Godhood of Jesus was Mary's heavenly Father. Many people stumble over this fact and claim that Mary was the mother of God. That claim is ridiculous of course.
        For God tells us in Hebrews that God has no father or mother. That is an attribute of God. BUT the manhood of Jesus did have a mother, and His Father was of course God Almighty.

        Certainly we all know that Jesus was saying that anyone must have the second birth of the spirit to enter heaven.

        But is not Jesus also saying that a person has to have the first birth of the flesh to be able to have the second birth.

        Jesus did not have to use this example. He could have said:
        Everyone, but Adam must be born again.

        OR Everyone must be born of the spirit to enter heaven.

        But Jesus did not use either of these.

        He said everyone must be born again. To be born the second time of the spirit, one must be born the first time of the flesh.

        Certainly we all agree that EVERYONE ( except Adam ) will be both born of the flesh, and then born of the spirit to enter heaven. Even Jesus Christ had to be born of the flesh to be human.

        BUT Jesus did not make an exception for Adam.

        If you read the posts on our site I make further arguments that bring addition questions about this.


        We men speak in ways that are not perfect. But everything Jesus said was perfection.

        I find that Jesus seemed to leave an open door here that He certainly did not make by mistake. Certainly He seen the question this would raise when he said it.

        Me, I am so stupid that it took me 71 years to even see the question. But I am positive that Jesus seen this question even before he said it.

        We men take shortcuts. But God does not take shortcuts. We would have just forgiven men their sin without us coming down from heaven and being born of a woman to become a man and then shed our blood for man's sin. Jesus did not take a shortcut here. He is not only full of mercy, he is full of justice. So to forgive us, sin had to be paid for. So he was born of a woman and shed His own blood for us.

        So if the second Adam had to be born of a woman, did the first Adam have to be born of a woman ?

        And if not, why not ? - this question remains, and The Lord Jesus tells us to ask Him questions so that He can answer them for us to have a further revelation of Him.

        So the question remains.
        While we know that Adam had to have a spiritual birth to enter heaven.

        Was Adam born of the flesh like all of us the first time.

        Just because this looks impossible to us mere men, does not mean that it is impossible for God.


        NOTHING is too difficult for The Lord Jesus.

        Lou Newton
        Last edited by Lou Newton; April 15th, 2016, 09:48 AM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Hi Lou,

          Interesting topic. Who was Adam's mother or how was he born first in the flesh?

          I read that he was made out of the dust and "formed" if that can be considered to be born of the dust or the earth.

          Not sure but interested in the answer.

          The Lord refers to the womb of the morning so each day is "born" anew every morning.

          What do you think? ..... Steve

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Steve Hollander View Post
            Hi Lou,

            Interesting topic. Who was Adam's mother or how was he born first in the flesh?

            I read that he was made out of the dust and "formed" if that can be considered to be born of the dust or the earth.

            Not sure but interested in the answer.

            The Lord refers to the womb of the morning so each day is "born" anew every morning.

            What do you think? ..... Steve
            That's a cool observation, Steve. It kind of eases towards my pondering.

            If Adam was one man, and he was made from the dust then was he born of the womb of the dust?

            When Jesus said in Joh 3:3: Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

            He was certainly speaking of procreation, and of spiritual spiritual rebirth using the metaphor of natural birth. Indeed, since we know that reality is spirit and the natural is shadow, then we can conclude that spiritual birth is the true birth and that natural birth is God's way of revealing His truth to naturally-minded man.

            In the same way, it's been proposed recently by a few scholars, Genesis 1-2 is a metaphor. (We can still say it is God's truth, because metaphor is a likeness, true to form. Lou has pointed this out succinctly, starting with Gen 1:1.) The metaphor in Gen 1-2 deals with the Israelites coming out of Egypt, where they had spent 40 generations and been stewing in Egyptian paganism. It is to God's glory that they still knew Him at all.

            The proposition is that Gen 1-2 is a corrective creation theology. The Israelites' creation theology was badly tainted by Egyptian creation myth, and Yahweh is pointing out where they are wrong and what is truth. The literary clues are lost in translation, which makes it impossible for us to recognize this; but scholars with the right background (Egyptian creation theology) and expertise (ancient near eastern languages) have recognized it and can point out to us the close similarity to the myth and the literary devices common to the era.

            I bring this perspective up because if Jesus speaks in metaphor to Nicodemus, we can expect Him to do so in other places. And it seems Gen 1-2 is one of those places.

            Back to Adam. Was he born of the womb of the dust? This is the obvious sense of the text, just as "let the land bring forth plants" is the obvious sense of the text, and invites us to think deeper about it. This conveys to me that Adam (the word for "man" and "mankind" in Hebrew, is surely no coincidence) was formed by God of natural stuff. We can assume natural processes because God established the physical laws, and He is not a law breaker. We can assume divine power, because God blesses His creation, speaking light into darkness. We can assume true life, the Word, because God breathed it into him.

            Question: at this point did Adam need to be reborn?

            After Adam sinned and suffered spiritual death he definitely needed to be reborn. There is no life, no true life, without the rebirth by grace through faith.

            When Adam fell it was the result of a choice. Israel was given a similar choice in Deu 11:26:

            Deu 11:26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse; 27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day: 28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

            And under the New Covenant man is given the choice.

            So it seems to me that Adam--whether metaphor or a real, singular first man in a literal garden--was born. I think that is all I can say about him with regards to this topic. As a man born, he would have been eligible for rebirth as Jesus spoke of it to Nicodemus.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Lou Newton View Post
              I thought you may find this discussion interesting and profitable:

              The more mature a man is the older he is. When corn gets too old, people say it is too mature.

              But Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, NO ONE can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again." So if Adam was not born, he could not be born again. So are you saying that Adam could not enter the Kingdom of God. Jesus speaks with perfection. What Jesus said is TRUE is every case, there is no exception, or it would not be totally true. What Jesus said can never ONCE fail. EVERY man must be born again. Therefore Adam must have been born, so that he could be born again. Jesus is just and full of mercy. Certainly we know that Adam could enter the Kingdom. So Adam had to be born, so that he could be born again. Find me in scripture where it says Adam was not born ! It is NOT there. You are assuming, that is not faith. We are to believe the scriptures, not the traditions of men.

              You are making assumptions that are simply not in the scriptures. The scriptures interpret the scriptures. We know that Adam was born, so that he was able to be born again, like all men are given the opportunity to make peace with God.

              Adam was never perfect. That is another false assumption made by many. Only God is perfect. Adam was given the opportunity to be perfect, by being given the opportunity to chose to obey God. BUT HE FAILED and sinned. Perfection can not fail. For if a bridge fails it was NOT perfect. Adam was created INNOCENT, that is the ability to chose to be righteous. Please dear brother, show me the scripture that says Adam was created perfect.

              Adam was created in the IMAGE of God. I am a example of a man. But my photo is an image of a man, and not an example of a man at all. We are but an image of God, not God. He alone is perfect in all of His ways. We are all sinners worthy of eternal destruction. It is only by the perfect mercy and justice of the Lord Jesus, that we are able to be saved and be with Him forever.

              Adam failed, did he not. Perfection can not fail. Certainly God is perfect. God can not fail. Adam failed, therefore he was not perfect.


              Lou Newton

              Find the rest of the discussion here:

              https://disqus.com/home/discussion/c...ent-2101297427
              Hi, Lou. I agree with the spirit of this post. But can we generally can say Adam was not "perfect"? The word can mean a number of things, and was used so in the Hebrew and in English. It can mean mature, complete, without blemish, sincere, upright. Was Adam in some sense any of these? Perhaps. (Greek is more particular and hard to map.)

              That said, it helps my thoughts to frame the distinctions.

              God is incapable of failing because of who He is. He is absolutely perfect, He changes not, He is eternal. He needs nothing.

              Man is capable of failing because of who he is. He is not absolutely perfect, nor consistent, nor eternal. He needs God.

              Adam was an image, the same Hebrew word used for shadow and idol. This is a powerful representation of the vast gulf between God and man. As an image of God, Adam was perfect. But God is source of Life, and Adam is the recipient of Life.

              Scripture does not say Adam was perfect, however the word "perfect" is used quite a bit in Scripture. Even to describe lesser things: for example, in Leviticus animals to be sacrificed were to be perfect (clarified precisely as unblemished).

              And in Ezekiel the Lord said the King of Tyrus was perfect (clarified as "perfect in his ways") from the day he was created. These things that are said to be perfect are not absolutely perfect, as God is perfect.

              The sheep is corruptible flesh. The King of Tyrus is commonly thought to be the cherub who fell, Satan.

              Solomon in Ecclesiastes said: God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions. He does not use the same word, but I think the passage is relevant. God set things in order, he deemed them "very good" in Genesis, but man chose not to continue on the straight course. So we see a passage of time, in which the creature can change from perfect (in any of its meanings) to other than perfect.

              I don't mean to criticize, Lou. I only wish to address the deeper and potentially sticky implications that a general statement like "Adam was not perfect" triggered in my thoughts.

              Thank you for opening this topic.

              Comment


              • #8
                Reply from Glen

                Concerning the Greek in John 3
                To whom is the Lord Jesus speaking? Obviously, it is Nicodemus.
                Who does the Lord Jesus mean by:
                The word in verse 3 & 5 translated as €œperson,€ €œone,€ €œman,€ €œsomeone,€ or €œyou?€1 In context these words would refer to an Israelite by birth.
                Who does the Lord Jesus mean by:
                €œyou€ in verses 7, 10, 11, & 12? Obviously, it is Nicodemus2 and not the entire world.

                Person, one, man, you, someone
                The Greek word translated using these English words in verses 3 & 5 are the same in the Greek €“ (tis).1 To whom does tis apply? Tis refers to a certain person or group. The specific person or group may or may not be identifiable, but is known to exist. Who is the person or group the Lord Jesus refers? It might be Nicodemus, but if it were then €œyou€ (sy in Greek) would be used just as the Lord does when addressing Nicodemus elsewhere in Chapter 3 of John. The largest group Nicodemus could be identified with is Israel.

                The Jew believed that to be chosen of God was a condition of being born of the flesh from the linage of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob €“ an Israelite (Matthew 3:9). Because the Greek word in John 3 is tis the figure of speech €œborn again€ is designed specifically for the Jew (tis), and in this case a specific Jewish €œteacher of the law.€ Clearly the meaning of tis addresses Nicodemus or the Jew who considered their birth the significant aspect of the relationship with God. The Lord Jesus seems to be making the point that it is not enough to be born an Israelite, but you must be born spiritually. There is a lot of material in the New Testament which clearly supports that the Israel of faith are those followers of the Lord Jesus.

                The €œborn again€ words of the Lord Jesus are addressed to Nicodemus and not Adam €“ to Israelites and not the entire world population.

                Born Again are €œborn of the spirit€ and €œbelieves in Him.€

                Continuing in John 3 - those who are born again are €œborn of the spirit€ and €œbelieves in Him.€

                John 3:8 everyone born of the spirit
                John 3:16 whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.


                €œEveryone€ and €œwhoever€ are the same Greek word €“ pas.3 Contrasted with tis it helps to understand the difference. The figure of speech €œborn again€ is directed as a specific group (tis) who are relying on their birth as an Israelite while the gentile world would not be expecting their birth to establish a relationship with God. For the gentile being €œborn again€ would carry no more emphasis than €œborn of the spirit€ (John 3:8). Jews would think by birth they had been born of the spirit.

                By understanding the Greek text it becomes obvious that the €œborn again€ figure of speech distinguishes the blood line of the Israelite with that of the followers of the Lord Jesus. Accordingly €œborn again€ must not be applied to any of the ancestors of Jacob, the first of the Israelites. The words €œborn again€ simply means born of the spirit - a new creation and many more figures of speech are applicable.

                What about claiming that because the Bible does not say Adam was not born must mean Adam was born? This is a logical fallacy. The argument is made from Ignorance. One must not claim to know something based on what you don€™t know€”to prove something with nothing.

                The famous logical fallacy is the notion of the bottomless pit because the bottom has yet to have been reached. Carlsbad Caverns has such a pit known as the €œBottomless Pit.€ For sixty plus years the notion of a pit without a bottom fascinated visitors. The gullible visitor accepted this logical fallacy made from ignorance. Originally, the pit was really thought to be bottomless. When stones were tossed into it, no sound was ever heard of them striking the bottom. Later explorations revealed the truth. The bottom was deep, about 140 feet below the opening, and covered with loose soil. When the stones reached the bottom, the sound of their landing was muffled by the soft dirt. Still, visitors love to put the pit to the test. As a result, park rangers have to rappel to the bottom once a year to retrieve all the trash that's been thrown in.


                Footnotes:

                1. The Greek tis
                Koine Greek is „ι‚ (tis) Strong: G5100 GK: G5516
                Part of speech: enclitic, indefinite pronoun,
                Definitions:
                a certain one, someone, Mt. 12:47;
                pl. some, certain, several, Lk. 8:2; Acts 9:19; 2 Pet. 3:16;
                one, a person, Mt. 12:29; Lk. 14:8; Jn. 6:50;
                combined with the name of an individual, one, Mk. 15:21;
                as it were in a manner, a kind of, Heb. 10:27; Jas. 1:18;
                any whatever, Mt. 8:28; Lk. 11:36; Rom. 8:39;
                „ι‚, somebody of consequence, Acts 5:36;
                „ι, something of consequence, Gal. 2:6; 6:3;
                „ι, anything at all, anything worth account, 1 Cor. 3:7; 10:19;
                „ι at all, Phil. 3:15; Phlm. 18

                2. The Greek sy.
                ƒύ (sy)
                Strong: G4571, G4671, G4675, G4771, G5209, G5210, G5213, G5216
                GK: G5148
                Definitions: you, gen., ƒο, dat., ƒοί, acc., ƒ�*, Mt. 1:20; 2:6
                3. The Greek pas
                Forms of the word: €‚, €ƒα, €ν
                Greek transliteration: pas
                Simplified transliteration: pas

                ‚ (pas) Strong: G3956 GK: G4246

                Frequency in New Testament: 1243

                Gloss: all, every (thing, one), whole; always

                Definition:
                all; in the sg. the whole, entire, usually when the substantive has the article, Mt. 6:29; 8:32; Acts 19:26;
                every, only with an anarthrous subst., Mt. 3:10; 4:4; pl. all, Mt. 1:17, et al. freq.;
                €άν„α, in all respects, Acts 20:35; 1Cor. 9:25; 10:33; 11:2;
                by a Hebraism, a negative with €‚ is sometimes equivalent to οδει‚ or μηδει‚, Mt. 24:22; Lk. 1:37; Acts 10:14; Rom. 3:20; 1Cor. 1:29; Eph. 4:29
                Last edited by Lou Newton; April 15th, 2016, 09:55 AM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by from Glen Smith
                  Concerning the Greek in John 3
                  To whom is the Lord Jesus speaking? Obviously, it is Nicodemus.
                  Who does the Lord Jesus mean by:
                  The word in verse 3 & 5 translated as “person,” “one,” “man,” “someone,” or “you?”1 In context these words would refer to an Israelite by birth.
                  Who does the Lord Jesus mean by:
                  “you” in verses 7, 10, 11, & 12? Obviously, it is Nicodemus2 and not the entire world.

                  Person, one, man, you, someone
                  The Greek word translated using these English words in verses 3 & 5 are the same in the Greek – (tis).1 To whom does tis apply? Tis refers to a certain person or group. The specific person or group may or may not be identifiable, but is known to exist. Who is the person or group the Lord Jesus refers? It might be Nicodemus, but if it were then “you” (sy in Greek) would be used just as the Lord does when addressing Nicodemus elsewhere in Chapter 3 of John. The largest group Nicodemus could be identified with is Israel.

                  The Jew believed that to be chosen of God was a condition of being born of the flesh from the linage of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob – an Israelite (Matthew 3:9). Because the Greek word in John 3 is tis the figure of speech “born again” is designed specifically for the Jew (tis), and in this case a specific Jewish “teacher of the law.” Clearly the meaning of tis addresses Nicodemus or the Jew who considered their birth the significant aspect of the relationship with God. The Lord Jesus seems to be making the point that it is not enough to be born an Israelite, but you must be born spiritually. There is a lot of material in the New Testament which clearly supports that the Israel of faith are those followers of the Lord Jesus.

                  The “born again” words of the Lord Jesus are addressed to Nicodemus and not Adam – to Israelites and not the entire world population.

                  Born Again are “born of the spirit” and “believes in Him.”

                  Continuing in John 3 - those who are born again are “born of the spirit” and “believes in Him.”

                  John 3:8 everyone born of the spirit
                  John 3:16 whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

                  “Everyone” and “whoever” are the same Greek word – pas.3 Contrasted with tis it helps to understand the difference. The figure of speech “born again” is directed as a specific group (tis) who are relying on their birth as an Israelite while the gentile world would not be expecting their birth to establish a relationship with God. For the gentile being “born again” would carry no more emphasis than “born of the spirit” (John 3:8). Jews would think by birth they had been born of the spirit.

                  By understanding the Greek text it becomes obvious that the “born again” figure of speech distinguishes the blood line of the Israelite with that of the followers of the Lord Jesus. Accordingly “born again” must not be applied to any of the ancestors of Jacob, the first of the Israelites. The words “born again” simply means born of the spirit - a new creation and many more figures of speech are applicable.

                  What about claiming that because the Bible does not say Adam was not born must mean Adam was born? This is a logical fallacy. The argument is made from Ignorance. One must not claim to know something based on what you don’t know—to prove something with nothing.

                  The famous logical fallacy is the notion of the bottomless pit because the bottom has yet to have been reached. Carlsbad Caverns has such a pit known as the “Bottomless Pit.” For sixty plus years the notion of a pit without a bottom fascinated visitors. The gullible visitor accepted this logical fallacy made from ignorance. Originally, the pit was really thought to be bottomless. When stones were tossed into it, no sound was ever heard of them striking the bottom. Later explorations revealed the truth. The bottom was deep, about 140 feet below the opening, and covered with loose soil. When the stones reached the bottom, the sound of their landing was muffled by the soft dirt. Still, visitors love to put the pit to the test. As a result, park rangers have to rappel to the bottom once a year to retrieve all the trash that's been thrown in.

                  Footnotes:

                  1. The Greek tis
                  Koine Greek is τις (tis) Strong: G5100 GK: G5516
                  Part of speech: enclitic, indefinite pronoun,
                  Definitions:
                  a certain one, someone, Mt. 12:47;
                  pl. some, certain, several, Lk. 8:2; Acts 9:19; 2 Pet. 3:16;
                  one, a person, Mt. 12:29; Lk. 14:8; Jn. 6:50;
                  combined with the name of an individual, one, Mk. 15:21;
                  as it were in a manner, a kind of, Heb. 10:27; Jas. 1:18;
                  any whatever, Mt. 8:28; Lk. 11:36; Rom. 8:39;
                  τις, somebody of consequence, Acts 5:36;
                  τι, something of consequence, Gal. 2:6; 6:3;
                  τι, anything at all, anything worth account, 1 Cor. 3:7; 10:19;
                  τι at all, Phil. 3:15; Phlm. 18

                  2. The Greek sy.
                  σύ (sy)
                  Strong: G4571, G4671, G4675, G4771, G5209, G5210, G5213, G5216
                  GK: G5148
                  Definitions: you, gen., σο, dat., σοί, acc., σ�*, Mt. 1:20; 2:6
                  3. The Greek pas
                  Forms of the word: πς, πσα, πν
                  Greek transliteration: pas
                  Simplified transliteration: pas

                  πς (pas) Strong: G3956 GK: G4246

                  Frequency in New Testament: 1243

                  Gloss: all, every (thing, one), whole; always

                  Definition:
                  all; in the sg. the whole, entire, usually when the substantive has the article, Mt. 6:29; 8:32; Acts 19:26;
                  every, only with an anarthrous subst., Mt. 3:10; 4:4; pl. all, Mt. 1:17, et al. freq.;
                  πάντα, in all respects, Acts 20:35; 1Cor. 9:25; 10:33; 11:2;
                  by a Hebraism, a negative with πς is sometimes equivalent to οδεις or μηδεις, Mt. 24:22; Lk. 1:37; Acts 10:14; Rom. 3:20; 1Cor. 1:29; Eph. 4:29
                  Thanks for the reply Glen.

                  You make some good points.

                  I do not think I used the fact that God did not say that Adam was NOT born, to be evidence that Adam was born.

                  If it was used it would prove nothing but that it was possible, but not evidence that he was born of the flesh.

                  While it is a good point you make about speaking to Nicodemus that being born of Abraham was not enough, he must also be born of the spirit; that fact it also true for everyone.

                  Many think being born a Methodist etc, will get them into heaven. No, they must be born again of the spirit.

                  But all the points you make are good things to think about.

                  Lou Newton

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Steve Hollander
                    Hi Lou,

                    Interesting topic. Who was Adam's mother or how was he born first in the flesh?

                    I read that he was made out of the dust and "formed" if that can be considered to be born of the dust or the earth.

                    Not sure but interested in the answer.

                    The Lord refers to the womb of the morning so each day is "born" anew every morning.

                    What do you think? ..... Steve
                    Originally posted by Baruch View Post
                    That's a cool observation, Steve. It kind of eases towards my pondering.

                    If Adam was one man, and he was made from the dust then was he born of the womb of the dust?

                    When Jesus said in Joh 3:3: Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

                    He was certainly speaking of procreation, and of spiritual spiritual rebirth using the metaphor of natural birth. Indeed, since we know that reality is spirit and the natural is shadow, then we can conclude that spiritual birth is the true birth and that natural birth is God's way of revealing His truth to naturally-minded man.

                    In the same way, it's been proposed recently by a few scholars, Genesis 1-2 is a metaphor. (We can still say it is God's truth, because metaphor is a likeness, true to form. Lou has pointed this out succinctly, starting with Gen 1:1.) The metaphor in Gen 1-2 deals with the Israelites coming out of Egypt, where they had spent 40 generations and been stewing in Egyptian paganism. It is to God's glory that they still knew Him at all.

                    The proposition is that Gen 1-2 is a corrective creation theology. The Israelites' creation theology was badly tainted by Egyptian creation myth, and Yahweh is pointing out where they are wrong and what is truth. The literary clues are lost in translation, which makes it impossible for us to recognize this; but scholars with the right background (Egyptian creation theology) and expertise (ancient near eastern languages) have recognized it and can point out to us the close similarity to the myth and the literary devices common to the era.

                    I bring this perspective up because if Jesus speaks in metaphor to Nicodemus, we can expect Him to do so in other places. And it seems Gen 1-2 is one of those places.

                    Back to Adam. Was he born of the womb of the dust? This is the obvious sense of the text, just as "let the land bring forth plants" is the obvious sense of the text, and invites us to think deeper about it. This conveys to me that Adam (the word for "man" and "mankind" in Hebrew, is surely no coincidence) was formed by God of natural stuff. We can assume natural processes because God established the physical laws, and He is not a law breaker. We can assume divine power, because God blesses His creation, speaking light into darkness. We can assume true life, the Word, because God breathed it into him.

                    Question: at this point did Adam need to be reborn?

                    After Adam sinned and suffered spiritual death he definitely needed to be reborn. There is no life, no true life, without the rebirth by grace through faith.

                    When Adam fell it was the result of a choice. Israel was given a similar choice in Deu 11:26:

                    Deu 11:26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse; 27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day: 28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

                    And under the New Covenant man is given the choice.

                    So it seems to me that Adam--whether metaphor or a real, singular first man in a literal garden--was born. I think that is all I can say about him with regards to this topic. As a man born, he would have been eligible for rebirth as Jesus spoke of it to Nicodemus.
                    Hi Steve and Barry,

                    Thanks so much for the reply.

                    I answered both of your posts earlier today, but I do not know what happened to them. They are gone.

                    Certainly you are both correct, that we are all made from star dust. Stars are born and then later die. Then other stars are born from the dust of that stars death. When the star supernovas, it makes heavier elements ( necessary for life ) that the star can not make from normal burning. So the death of stars bring forth life. Stars had to die, for us to have life. Just as Jesus had to die for us to have eternal life. Just as John points out in 1 John 4; every scripture has to say that God became flesh to die for us to have life, or it is not from God.

                    If stars were not born and then die, then Genesis 1 would not say that God became flesh to die for us to have life.

                    So it seems that this is what God MADE Adam from, that is star dust.

                    But it took a third act of creation for God to create a spirit for Adam. God breathed the breath of life into Adam so Adam would be in the image of God ( a spiritual being ). For spirit is not of this natural world. If it was we would not live forever with God. Because this world will pass away.

                    Jesus is revealing that He is the God of Genesis 1 when He came into the upper room and breathed the breath of life into the disciples:

                    John 20
                    19 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!"
                    20 After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.
                    21 Again Jesus said,"Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you."
                    22 And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit.



                    It seems to me that the breath of life in Genesis was NOT a breath that gave natural life (or air ), but one that gave spiritual life ( the spirit, or real life). The third act of creation gave Adam spiritual life, but God gave Adam natural life when God MADE Adam.

                    If one studies Genesis 1 with great care, God uses the word create when He creates something out of nothing. That is, nothing of this material world. God uses the word MAKE, or LET THERE BE, when He FORMS something out of matter He already CREATED in the beginning.

                    God created the heavens and the earth IN THE BEGINNING. The heavens and the earth includes everything in this material universe. No one can name anything that it in this material universe that is not included in the heavens and the earth.

                    God has established a law that can not be broken by man. That is the matter or energy that He created in the beginning can not be destroyed or any more created. Matter can be changed to energy, and energy to matter; but none can be destroyed, or any more created since the beginning.

                    That is the most foundational law of this natural universe that God created. Man would sure break it if he could. Man did not establish this law, but God did.

                    God does not break His own laws. So He formed Adam out of matter that He created in the BEGINNING. So He MADE Adam out of star dust that was formed by the stars. But that only made Adam a natural being, and not a spiritual being. The earth is also made from this star dust. Out in the vacuum of space it actually looks like dust.

                    So God CREATED a spirit for Adam and breathed the breath of life ( the spirit) into Adam, just as Jesus breathed the spirit into the disciples.

                    So that is why God says that he both MADE Adam, and CREATED Adam. God MADE a natural body of flesh for Adam out of dust. For God would not break His own law that no more matter can be created after the beginning. Then God CREATED a spirit for Adam, because the spirit is NOT on this material universe.


                    Genesis 1
                    26Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

                    27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

                    7the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.


                    If this is not clear to anyone, please ask questions about it. It took me many years to see and understand this when God revealed it to me.

                    Now the question remains, how did God FORM or MAKE Adam out of dust. There is evidence that God left us in His creation. But many do not want to hear about it.

                    That includes me. It is like a train coming around the bend. It keeps coming and never retreats. It has been hard for me to face. For one reason I will be much persecuted for writing such things. I am ,in fact, a coward.


                    Lou Newton
                    Last edited by Lou Newton; April 15th, 2016, 10:02 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Lou Newton View Post
                      By understanding the Greek text it becomes obvious that the “born again” figure of speech distinguishes the blood line of the Israelite with that of the followers of the Lord Jesus. Accordingly “born again” must not be applied to any of the ancestors of Jacob, the first of the Israelites. The words “born again” simply means born of the spirit - a new creation and many more figures of speech are applicable.
                      Hi, Glen. Thanks for your carefully researched thoughts. They stretch my understanding in interesting ways.

                      I don't follow the logic from this paragraph's opening statement to the one I've highlighted in red. Would you elaborate a little, please?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Baruch View Post
                        Hi, Lou. I agree with the spirit of this post. But can we generally can say Adam was not "perfect"? The word can mean a number of things, and was used so in the Hebrew and in English. It can mean mature, complete, without blemish, sincere, upright. Was Adam in some sense any of these? Perhaps. (Greek is more particular and hard to map.)

                        That said, it helps my thoughts to frame the distinctions.

                        God is incapable of failing because of who He is. He is absolutely perfect, He changes not, He is eternal. He needs nothing.

                        Man is capable of failing because of who he is. He is not absolutely perfect, nor consistent, nor eternal. He needs God.

                        Adam was an image, the same Hebrew word used for shadow and idol. This is a powerful representation of the vast gulf between God and man. As an image of God, Adam was perfect. But God is source of Life, and Adam is the recipient of Life.

                        Scripture does not say Adam was perfect, however the word "perfect" is used quite a bit in Scripture. Even to describe lesser things: for example, in Leviticus animals to be sacrificed were to be perfect (clarified precisely as unblemished).

                        And in Ezekiel the Lord said the King of Tyrus was perfect (clarified as "perfect in his ways") from the day he was created. These things that are said to be perfect are not absolutely perfect, as God is perfect.

                        The sheep is corruptible flesh. The King of Tyrus is commonly thought to be the cherub who fell, Satan.

                        Solomon in Ecclesiastes said: God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions. He does not use the same word, but I think the passage is relevant. God set things in order, he deemed them "very good" in Genesis, but man chose not to continue on the straight course. So we see a passage of time, in which the creature can change from perfect (in any of its meanings) to other than perfect.

                        I don't mean to criticize, Lou. I only wish to address the deeper and potentially sticky implications that a general statement like "Adam was not perfect" triggered in my thoughts.

                        Thank you for opening this topic.
                        Thanks you for your comments Barry.

                        It seems to me that God is saying that He put no imperfection in Satan, or any man. Satan's and man's imperfection comes from the fact that they are NOT God.

                        God did not put imperfection there, but we all put it there by being selfish. We are afraid to die, and so we hang onto our life.

                        God does not tempt anyone to sin, But God did allow us to be tempted by our own desires and Satan.

                        Romans 11:32New International Version (NIV)

                        32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

                        We are created innocent, or the opportunity to be perfect. But we all fail and sin and die.

                        Hanging onto our life brings sin, or failure to be perfect like God.

                        Luke 17:33Living Bible (TLB)

                        33 Whoever clings to his life shall lose it, and whoever loses his life shall save it.

                        The sacrifice had to be perfect example of a sheep, with no imperfection. But sheep are not perfect, or they would not die. Animals are selfish and most of their acts are for them to survive, or hang onto life. But in spite of their work to survive, they fail and die.

                        But God successfully uses the lamb as a shadow of Him sacrificing His Son to give us life.

                        But you have brought more clarity to the subject Barry.

                        Lou Newton

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Baruch View Post
                          That's a cool observation, Steve. It kind of eases towards my pondering.

                          If Adam was one man, and he was made from the dust then was he born of the womb of the dust?

                          When Jesus said in Joh 3:3: Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

                          He was certainly speaking of procreation, and of spiritual spiritual rebirth using the metaphor of natural birth. Indeed, since we know that reality is spirit and the natural is shadow, then we can conclude that spiritual birth is the true birth and that natural birth is God's way of revealing His truth to naturally-minded man.

                          In the same way, it's been proposed recently by a few scholars, Genesis 1-2 is a metaphor. (We can still say it is God's truth, because metaphor is a likeness, true to form. Lou has pointed this out succinctly, starting with Gen 1:1.) The metaphor in Gen 1-2 deals with the Israelites coming out of Egypt, where they had spent 40 generations and been stewing in Egyptian paganism. It is to God's glory that they still knew Him at all.

                          The proposition is that Gen 1-2 is a corrective creation theology. The Israelites' creation theology was badly tainted by Egyptian creation myth, and Yahweh is pointing out where they are wrong and what is truth. The literary clues are lost in translation, which makes it impossible for us to recognize this; but scholars with the right background (Egyptian creation theology) and expertise (ancient near eastern languages) have recognized it and can point out to us the close similarity to the myth and the literary devices common to the era.

                          I bring this perspective up because if Jesus speaks in metaphor to Nicodemus, we can expect Him to do so in other places. And it seems Gen 1-2 is one of those places.

                          Back to Adam. Was he born of the womb of the dust? This is the obvious sense of the text, just as "let the land bring forth plants" is the obvious sense of the text, and invites us to think deeper about it. This conveys to me that Adam (the word for "man" and "mankind" in Hebrew, is surely no coincidence) was formed by God of natural stuff. We can assume natural processes because God established the physical laws, and He is not a law breaker. We can assume divine power, because God blesses His creation, speaking light into darkness. We can assume true life, the Word, because God breathed it into him.

                          Question: at this point did Adam need to be reborn?

                          After Adam sinned and suffered spiritual death he definitely needed to be reborn. There is no life, no true life, without the rebirth by grace through faith.

                          When Adam fell it was the result of a choice. Israel was given a similar choice in Deu 11:26:

                          Deu 11:26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse; 27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day: 28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

                          And under the New Covenant man is given the choice.

                          So it seems to me that Adam--whether metaphor or a real, singular first man in a literal garden--was born. I think that is all I can say about him with regards to this topic. As a man born, he would have been eligible for rebirth as Jesus spoke of it to Nicodemus.
                          Hi Barry,

                          Thanks for the reply and I am digesting what you wrote, but I am struggling to understand it all.

                          Most of the people here are gifted with much insight. I am hopeful to be able to receive it all and understand it.

                          Lou has been most gracious to me with patiently explaining to me many times over those things I have trouble understanding.

                          I am eager to see what the answer is, but I am not seeing how he was born first naturally other than being made out of the dust.

                          Blessings ..... Steve

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Lou Newton View Post
                            Thanks you for your comments Barry.

                            It seems to me that God is saying that He put no imperfection in Satan, or any man. Satan's and man's imperfection comes from the fact that they are NOT God.

                            God did not put imperfection there, but we all put it there by being selfish. We are afraid to die, and so we hang onto our life.

                            God does not tempt anyone to sin, But God did allow us to be tempted by our own desires and Satan.

                            Romans 11:32New International Version (NIV)

                            32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

                            We are created innocent, or the opportunity to be perfect. But we all fail and sin and die.

                            Hanging onto our life brings sin, or failure to be perfect like God.

                            Luke 17:33Living Bible (TLB)

                            33 Whoever clings to his life shall lose it, and whoever loses his life shall save it.

                            The sacrifice had to be perfect example of a sheep, with no imperfection. But sheep are not perfect, or they would not die. Animals are selfish and most of their acts are for them to survive, or hang onto life. But in spite of their work to survive, they fail and die.

                            But God successfully uses the lamb as a shadow of Him sacrificing His Son to give us life.

                            But you have brought more clarity to the subject Barry.

                            Lou Newton
                            Hi Lou,

                            I still can't get how Adam was born other than being made and receiving the Holy Spirit.

                            Thanks for the topic and for explaining it ..... Steve

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Steve Hollander View Post
                              Hi Lou,

                              I still can't get how Adam was born other than being made and receiving the Holy Spirit.

                              Thanks for the topic and for explaining it ..... Steve
                              Hi Steve,

                              Thanks for the reply.

                              I will post more to further this topic and also we can talk on the phone about it.

                              Lou

                              Comment

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