Death - are there different kinds of death ?

[Lou Newton]

What is death? Are there different kinds of death? When did death come to exist? Who was the first to be slain ?

Does sin bring death, or does death bring sin?

The scripture about death that is misunderstood, with this misunderstanding starting a lot of error in the church is this:

Romans 5
12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

So many have assumed that there was no death until Adam sinned. But we must consider this topic with care.

Is there more than one kind of death. Well of course there is. There is the death of the body and the death of the spirit.

WHAT DID JESUS CALL DEATH OF THE BODY ?

John 11
New International Version (NIV)

The Death of Lazarus

11 Now a man named Lazarus was sick. He was from Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha. 2 (This Mary, whose brother Lazarus now lay sick, was the same one who poured perfume on the Lord and wiped his feet with her hair.) 3 So the sisters sent word to Jesus, “Lord, the one you love is sick.”

4 When he heard this, Jesus said, “This sickness will not end in death. No, it is for God’s glory so that God’s Son may be glorified through it.” 5 Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus. 6 So when he heard that Lazarus was sick, he stayed where he was two more days, 7 and then he said to his disciples, “Let us go back to Judea.”

8 “But Rabbi,” they said, “a short while ago the Jews there tried to stone you, and yet you are going back?”

9 Jesus answered, “Are there not twelve hours of daylight? Anyone who walks in the daytime will not stumble, for they see by this world’s light. 10 It is when a person walks at night that they stumble, for they have no light.”

11 After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.”
12 His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.” 13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.

14 So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead, 15 and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.”

Jesus said Lazarus had fallen asleep. Jesus does not lie. He was making a difference between spiritual death and death of the body. Death of the body is like sleep. Death of the spirit is real death.

1 Thessalonians 4:13
[ Believers Who Have Died ] Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope.

Here we can see that death of the body is referred to as sleep.

Luke 8
Jesus Raises a Dead Girl and Heals a Sick Woman

40 Now when Jesus returned, a crowd welcomed him, for they were all expecting him. 41 Then a man named Jairus, a synagogue leader, came and fell at Jesus’ feet, pleading with him to come to his house 42 because his only daughter, a girl of about twelve, was dying.

.................................................. ..........

49 While Jesus was still speaking, someone came from the house of Jairus, the synagogue leader. “Your daughter is dead,” he said. “Don’t bother the teacher anymore.”

50 Hearing this, Jesus said to Jairus, “Don’t be afraid; just believe, and she will be healed.”

51 When he arrived at the house of Jairus, he did not let anyone go in with him except Peter, John and James, and the child’s father and mother. 52 Meanwhile, all the people were wailing and mourning for her. “Stop wailing,” Jesus said. “She is not dead but asleep.”
53 They laughed at him, knowing that she was dead. 54 But he took her by the hand and said, “My child, get up!” 55 Her spirit returned, and at once she stood up. Then Jesus told them to give her something to eat. 56 Her parents were astonished, but he ordered them not to tell anyone what had happened.

NOTICE that this girl had died in the body, because it say's, "They laughed at Him, knowing that she was dead"

If they had been wrong, the scriptures would read THINKING she was dead.

Also it says, Her spirit returned. So her spirit had left, or her body had died. We can also see that her spirit had NOT DIED, for her spirit returned to her and she stood on her feet and was fine.

This is death of the body, which God often refers to as sleep. It is not as serious as death of the spirit.

Grace to you,

Lou Newton

[Lou Newton]

Spiritual death

John 8
49 “I am not possessed by a demon,” said Jesus, “but I honor my Father and you dishonor me. 50 I am not seeking glory for myself; but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge. 51

Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never see death.”

Obviously Jesus is not speaking here of the death of the body. For many died in the body that obeyed His word.

Luke 23
40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”

42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”

43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

We can see here that the one robber was told by Jesus that he would be in paradise that very day with Jesus. So he died in the body, but not the spirit.

John 19

The Death of Jesus

28 Later, knowing that everything had now been finished, and so that Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, “I am thirsty.” 29 A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus’ lips. 30 When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

The human body of Jesus dies and was buried. But we see His Spirit left Him at that death. Of course The Holy Spirit can not die, for The Holy Spirit is Life Himself.

So let us look at this scripture again:

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

I have sinned every day of my life, but it did not bring death in the body to me. Sin brings spiritual death. The only way to escape this spiritual death, is to trust Jesus to save you. For His death, and blood has paid for our sin. So I am spared spiritual death.

BUT SAINTS STILL DIE IN THE BODY. - trusting in the blood of Jesus does not keep me from death in the body. But it does save me from death in the spirit.

Did Noah die in the body. How about Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob did their bodies not die.

Matthew 22
29 Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 31 But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”

So we see that Jesus says that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are still alive. Their bodies died, but their spirit still lives.

So sin entered the world through one man, Adam. And SPIRITUAL death entered through his sin. Then SPIRITAL DEATH CAME TO ALL, BECAUSE ALL SIN.

SO SIN BRINGS ABOUT SPIRITUAL DEATH - NOT DEATH IN THE BODY

Of course one can sin and then die in the body because of that sin. A murderer is condemned to death for his sin. But so are those who are accused falsely sometimes. But sin always brings about spiritual death, unless one is confessing their sin and trusting Jesus to save them.

Grace to you,

Lou Newton

[Lou Newton]

Adam's sin - Adam's death

Let us look at the life, sin and death of Adam:

First we must consider that The Lord Jesus created this whole universe for Adam. God then made light and warmth for Adam with the sun. After that God made air for him to breath and land for him to live on. God then made the earth produce plants and animals for Adam to eat and have pleasure watching. Finally God made a garden with everything Adam needed, including a wife, Eve.

Genesis 2
15 And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

God told Adam that the day he ate of that tree he would surely die.

Now I ask you this question. Does God speak to us in our language, or a foreign language that we can not understand. Well our language of course.

If God told Adam he would surely DIE the day he ate of the that one tree; how would Adam know what God was speaking about if he had never seen any kind of death before.

HOW COULD ADAM FEAR DEATH IF HE HAD NEVER SEEN DEATH

But remember this scripture:

Hebrews 2:14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. 16 For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham’s descendants. 17 For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. 18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

Mankind ( including Adam) was held in slavery by their FEAR OF DEATH. What is that slavery they were held in ? The slavery to sin is what they were slaves to.

1 Cor 15:55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”

56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

It is our fear of death that causes us to sin. For the sting of death is sin.

So for Adam to fear death, he had to have seen death take place before he sinned.

THE CAUSE OF SIN IS OUR FEAR OF DEATH

SO THE SOURCE OF SIN IS OUR FEAR OF DEATH

THE SOURCE MUST COME BEFORE THE OUTCOME

SO THE FEAR OF DEATH HAD TO BECOME BEFORE SIN

SO DEATH HAD TO COME BEFORE SIN

THE QUESTION IS WHAT KIND OF DEATH CAME BEFORE SIN

AND WHAT KIND OF DEATH CAME FROM SIN

Genesis 3
King James Version (KJV)

3 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

We see here that Eve feared death so much that she made the command of God more strick than God said. For Eve said they would die if they even TOUCHED THE TREE. God had not said that. Then Satan goes on to tell Eve that she will not die for eating of the tree. Eve's distortion of what God said allowed Satan to distort it even further. The question arises; if Eve had quoted God correctly, would she have been protected from deception from Satan.

BUT WHAT ALL THIS TALK ABOUT DEATH - IF DEATH HAD NEVER TOOK PLACE YET.

But look at the temptation of Satan. He plants the idea that God is an Oger that does not allow them to eat of any tree. Which was a big lie, for they were allowed to eat of any tree except the one.

But Eve tried to make it look as she was defending God by saying they could eat of any tree except the one. BUT she then agreed with Satan, that God was an Oger that would kill them for even touching (bumping into) the forbidden tree. Anyone could do that by accident. But you could only eat of it by a willful act of disobedience.

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

So Satan jumps on the Oger bandwagon and adds to it. God is an Oger that is trying to keep good from Adam and Eve. Satan is trying to convince Eve that God does not want them to be wise like He is. Satan just walked through the door that Eve opened for him. Keep the door closed and the enemy can not get to us. Eve should have agreed with God and disagreed with Satan. Instead she pretended to agree with God, when really she was agreeing with Satan.

6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

We see here that woman are tempted by things that look good to the eye and also the power of wisdom, because they are the weaker vessel. They desire to equal themselves to the stronger men.

But Adam was tempted by Eve. God created woman with such a beauty that men have a very hard time saying no to them.

This is why women should not be chosen as leaders. For they are more easily deceived by Satan, and then men are easily deceived by the woman leader.

7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

So we see suddenly they were both aware of good and evil. Their eyes were opened. God had told them the truth, it was the tree of knowledge of good and evil. When they did not know what evil was, they were not responsible for it. But now that they knew, they were responsible. Before they ate of the tree, they only had one law they were responsible for. That was do not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. They could eat of every other tree, including the tree of life. They chose death over life, a very poor choice. Especially considering it was death that they feared. Tell a child he can not have something, and that is the very thing that he will want.

8 And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.

9 And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

We see here that Adam had been the friend of God and walked and talked with him in the garden every day. But now Adam is afraid of God. You do not fear someone you love and you know that they love you. They hid themselves from God because they were now afraid of Him. They were afraid of God because they no longer trusted Him. So they did not trust that God wanted the best for them. Of course this is lack of love for God.

THEY HAD BOTH DIED IN THE SPIRIT. - For when Jesus lives in our spirit, we are alive to Him and He is our friend. But when we are dead in the spirit we are afraid of God and we are not His friend.

So you see God had spoken the truth. The day Adam ate of the tree he did surely die. He died in the spirit. He could no longer walk and talk with God, for he was afraid of God.

Genesis 5:3 When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth. 4 After Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters. 5 Altogether, Adam lived a total of 930 years, and then he died.

We see here that Adam ate of tree before he had children. So he was younger than 130. But he lived to be 930 before he died a death in the body.

SO ADAM DID NOT DIE A PHYSICAL DEATH THE DAY HE ATE OF THE TREE, BUT DIED HUNDREDS OF YEARS LATER

God is not a liar, so we know that Adam died the day he ate of the tree. So it had to be a spiritual death that he died that day. For God had said:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die

Romans 5:12
[ Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ ] Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

So we see that is was not natural death that first took place when Adam sinned. But it was spiritual death that first took place when Adam sinned.

There is no reason to think that there was no natural death until Adam sinned. The above scripture has been misunderstood by most of the church.

There had been no spiritual death until Adam sinned. Adam and Eve were the first to have the spirit in this natural universe, and also the first to die in the spirit. But we all sin and so we all too die in the spirit. That is why we must all be born again to have eternal life. For we are born of the water in our natural birth, but that body that is born that day will die. So our spirit must be born again to have the Holy Spirit breath the breath of Life into our spirit and bring eternal life to us.

So: THE QUESTION IS WHAT KIND OF DEATH CAME BEFORE SIN - the answer to this is natural death, or death of the flesh came before sin. Natural death came BEFORE sin.

AND WHAT KIND OF DEATH CAME FROM SIN - sin was the cause of spiritual death. So spiritual death came from sin.

Grace to you,

Lou Newton

[Travis]

Hey Lou,

I read all the parts you put together here in the thread over that last day or two. I tried to go back and read through it all again before I posted so I wouldn't overlook anything you had already said. There were two things I couldn't help but think about while reading through.

There had been no spiritual death until Adam sinned. Adam and Eve were the first to have the spirit, and also the first to die in the spirit.

Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. - Ezekiel 28:15 KJV

I don't think Satan and his angels were on the Earth, but in the heavens when this happened; but would you consider Satan's fall as spiritual death? I don't know if Adam knew about this or not (Satan did say, "you will be as gods," so maybe Eve knew what a god was?), perhaps if he and Eve had known all this they would not have been deceived by the Devil in the garden, but it would seem that spiritual death had happened before Adam and Eve's spiritual death. And as I have seen you refer to elsewhere, Christ himself was slain from the foundation of the world. This all has me thinking, especially about what you are saying about death being in existence before Adam and Eve sinned.

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. - 2 Peter 3:8 KJV

Also, Adam sinned that same day he took and ate that fruit, and thus spiritually died, as you have stated. But, as I have come to see (I believe) Jesus do throughout the whole of the bible, which is to fulfill his own words multiple times over in different ways, the words that came from Jesus's mouth when he gave that one commandment to Adam an Eve may have multiple fulfillments as well. Adam only lived 930 years in his life, 930 obviously being less than 1,000 years. It seems that, to the Lord, 1,000 years is a "day" of sorts, a unit of time not really much different than a single 24 hour rotation of the Earth to us humans. In that sense, Adam's body also died the same "day" that he ate of the fruit of the tree as well. This might be a minor detail, but I think it is interesting to think about.

Blessings,

Travis

[Lou Newton]

WOW, very good comments

Hey Lou,

I read all the parts you put together here in the thread over that last day or two. I tried to go back and read through it all again before I posted so I wouldn't overlook anything you had already said. There were two things I couldn't help but think about while reading through.

Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. - Ezekiel 28:15 KJV

I don't think Satan and his angels were on the Earth, but in the heavens when this happened; but would you consider Satan's fall as spiritual death? I don't know if Adam knew about this or not (Satan did say, "you will be as gods," so maybe Eve knew what a god was?), perhaps if he and Eve had known all this they would not have been deceived by the Devil in the garden, but it would seem that spiritual death had happened before Adam and Eve's spiritual death. And as I have seen you refer to elsewhere, Christ himself was slain from the foundation of the world. This all has me thinking, especially about what you are saying about death being in existence before Adam and Eve sinned.

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. - 2 Peter 3:8 KJV

Also, Adam sinned that same day he took and ate that fruit, and thus spiritually died, as you have stated. But, as I have come to see (I believe) Jesus do throughout the whole of the bible, which is to fulfill his own words multiple times over in different ways, the words that came from Jesus's mouth when he gave that one commandment to Adam an Eve may have multiple fulfillments as well. Adam only lived 930 years in his life, 930 obviously being less than 1,000 years. It seems that, to the Lord, 1,000 years is a "day" of sorts, a unit of time not really much different than a single 24 hour rotation of the Earth to us humans. In that sense, Adam's body also died the same "day" that he ate of the fruit of the tree as well. This might be a minor detail, but I think it is interesting to think about.

Blessings,

Travis

WOW, Travis, very good comments.

I can see you read and really thought about what was wrote. You have asked some really good questions here. I will give others some time to think and respond before I comment on your questions.

I did not finish writing my last post until 1 AM and was too tired to edit it. But I do not think I would have caught the one thing even this morning. You will see you caused me to go back and edit my last post, to:

Adam and Eve were the first to have the spirit in this natural universe,

Obviously Adam and Eve were not before God, who is Spirit and the source of their spirit. But I should have made that very clear, and did not.

Also Adam and Eve were not before the angels, who are also spirit.

In the back of my mind I might have thought, what if no one reads this article, after all of this work. Well Travis I would have wrote it if I had known you were going to be the only one who read it. And it is obvious that you have read it with care.

Thanks.

Grace to you,

Lou Newton
Bond servant of Jesus

[Lou Newton]

Hey Lou,

Also, Adam sinned that same day he took and ate that fruit, and thus spiritually died, as you have stated. But, as I have come to see (I believe) Jesus do throughout the whole of the bible, which is to fulfill his own words multiple times over in different ways, the words that came from Jesus's mouth when he gave that one commandment to Adam an Eve may have multiple fulfillments as well. Adam only lived 930 years in his life, 930 obviously being less than 1,000 years. It seems that, to the Lord, 1,000 years is a "day" of sorts, a unit of time not really much different than a single 24 hour rotation of the Earth to us humans. In that sense, Adam's body also died the same "day" that he ate of the fruit of the tree as well. This might be a minor detail, but I think it is interesting to think about.

Blessings,

Travis

Hi Travis,

The above is a very good comment. I did not think about this myself until you pointed it out. Thanks.

Yes, what The Lord said to Adam was true in both the way Adam kept time and the way God Himself looks at time.

Adam died in the spirit that very earth day that he ate of the tree.

Adam died in the flesh within a 1000 years, or a day to The Lord.

I can also imagine that Adam would have lived much longer in the flesh if he had not died in the spirit.

If we examine natural history; it is evident that there was very slow progress as animals ( these creatures that many scientist call men ) that walked upright made no progress while they existed. They stayed the same as long as they existed. The evidence seems to point to the fact that they existed for millions of years. Yet they made no progress in the way they lived or used tools. Only very small progress was made when a new kind of creature seemed to appear.

But when modern man appeared not to long ago, they changed the earth at a very fast pace. I think it was the fact they were spiritual beings that made them far superior.

We look at animals that have a soul, but do not have a spirit; and they do not live long as men in general. There are exceptions.

One could argue that the longer mankind had been dead in the spirit, the further he strayed from God. The further he strayed from God the shorter his life span was.

Grace to you,

Lou Newton
Bond servant of Jesus

[Lou Newton]

Are demons alive in the spirit - who was the first to die

Hey Lou,

I read all the parts you put together here in the thread over that last day or two. I tried to go back and read through it all again before I posted so I wouldn't overlook anything you had already said. There were two things I couldn't help but think about while reading through.

Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. - Ezekiel 28:15 KJV

I don't think Satan and his angels were on the Earth, but in the heavens when this happened; but would you consider Satan's fall as spiritual death? I don't know if Adam knew about this or not (Satan did say, "you will be as gods," so maybe Eve knew what a god was?), perhaps if he and Eve had known all this they would not have been deceived by the Devil in the garden, but it would seem that spiritual death had happened before Adam and Eve's spiritual death. And as I have seen you refer to elsewhere, Christ himself was slain from the foundation of the world. This all has me thinking, especially about what you are saying about death being in existence before Adam and Eve sinned.


Blessings,

Travis

Hi Travis, Really good questions !

Ephesians 6:12Living Bible (TLB)

12 For we are not fighting against people made of flesh and blood, but against persons without bodies—the evil rulers of the unseen world, those mighty satanic beings and great evil princes of darkness who rule this world; and against huge numbers of wicked spirits in the spirit world.

Of course I was speaking of natural beings and not spiritual beings. I should have stated so.

Well we know that demons have no flesh of course because of the above scripture. They are spiritual beings. So did they die a spiritual death. Well I would say that they are headed for a spiritual death when God puts them in the lake of fire. But you have asked a good question and I do not know the answer for sure. But we can both be on the lookout for a scripture that would shed light on this.

These demons are sure not in communion with God who is life. But then again if a spirit is dead in the spirit do they even exist any longer.

I do find this ironic though:

Demons who are spiritual beings seek a body of flesh to inhabit.

Humans who are flesh and blood seek the spiritual world.

We know demons seek a body of flesh from the example given in Genesis of demons having sex with women. Also we have the example of the demons who had possessed the poor man who hit himself with stones and Jesus made the demons leave him. They begged to go into the pigs. There are many mysteries.

We also see humans seeking the spirit world in any way they think might work, that is other than surrendering to The Lord Jesus. They try Ouija boards, fortune tellers, witchcraft, and many other ways to connect with the spirit world.

Of course connecting with the spirit world, and not only that, but the Creator of the spirit world, only requires that a person approach God with humility and confess their sin and give their life to Him.

Revelation 13:7-9
King James Version (KJV)

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

This is a mystery to us of course. But it seems that The Lord Jesus was the first to be slain. For the foundations were laid before Adam was created.


Grace to you,

Lou newton
Bond servant of Jesus

[Blane]

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

This is a mystery to us of course. But it seems that The Lord Jesus was the first to be slain. For the foundations were laid before Adam was created.

Here's a thought to prayerfully consider. God is not limited by time. Time was created for mankind. From God's perspective, The Lamb was already slain when God began laying the foundation of the world. God can see all things, past, present, and future, at the same time.

Fascinating thread, Lou. Thanks for starting it.

Blane

[Lou Newton]

God is not limited by time

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.



Here's a thought to prayerfully consider. God is not limited by time. Time was created for mankind. From God's perspective, The Lamb was already slain when God began laying the foundation of the world. God can see all things, past, present, and future, at the same time.

Fascinating thread, Lou. Thanks for starting it.

Blane

Right Blane. Thanks for the very good comment.

The following helped me to understand how God could see the future as well as the past.

If one considers a globe of the world; man is limited to the line of the equator. He is stuck on the line and can not see forward or back. The globe only moves forward and so man can only go forward.

But God is not on that line that goes around the globe. If God is thought to be far enough above the north pole, one can understand that He could see the whole equator. He could look at what is future ( east) to man, and at also look at the past (west) at the same moment.

So God can actually see the past like it is taking place now. He can actually see what we call the future as it is taking place now.

This may be why God can apply the blood He shed on the cross to people who lived in the past, as well as people who lived after He shed His blood.

This is also why God could know who is going to be saved and write their name in His Book of Life before they were born in our time.

Man has a hard time imagining that God can do this, for man can not. But God is simply not constrained in any way by space or time.

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

We see that before the beginning of space and time, God already existed.

Grace to you,

Lou Newton
Bond servant of Jesus

[AGTG]

This is amazing. So the Lord has been teaching me about our spirit person the last year. He has been showing me how all the metaphors for food that He used in His teachings apply spiritually to our spirit person. Ultimately, our spirit person is the bride of Christ. And like any good wife, our spirit person is obedient to Him and His Lordship.

But... There is the other side to this which relates to neglecting the needs of our spirit person, and death is the ultimate result if we do not nurture and strengthen it. I've been praying about understanding better, noticing the many references to "death" in the New Testament and how they really don't, and can't, be applied to physical death.

I noticed how John talked about how some sins lead to death:

1 John 5
16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God1 will give him life-to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.


.......................

[Lou Newton]

Some sins lead to death - some sins do not lead to death

This is amazing. So the Lord has been teaching me about our spirit person the last year. He has been showing me how all the metaphors for food that He used in His teachings apply spiritually to our spirit person. Ultimately, our spirit person is the bride of Christ. And like any good wife, our spirit person is obedient to Him and His Lordship.

But... There is the other side to this which relates to neglecting the needs of our spirit person, and death is the ultimate result if we do not nurture and strengthen it. I've been praying about understanding better, noticing the many references to "death" in the New Testament and how they really don't, and can't, be applied to physical death.

I noticed how John talked about how some sins lead to death:

1 John 5
16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God1 will give him life-to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.

Thanks for you comment AGTG,

The scripture you posted shows us that some sin leads to death, and some sin does not lead to death.

1 John 5:16-17
New International Version (NIV)

16 If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

The way much of the church has interpreted the scripture below does not agree with this:

Romans 5: 12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

For they say that Adam's sin led to the first natural death. By that reasoning all sin would lead to natural death. But here John says that some sin does not lead to any kind of death for someone who trusts Jesus to save them.

John also says that some sin does lead to death, and to not even pray for that person.

We can see that John is speaking of spiritual death here, not natural death (death of the body).

So some sin does not lead to natural death to those who are in the body of Christ. And some sin leads to spiritual death and those can not be saved from that sin.

NOW as to what is the sin that leads to death. Well that is another article and will not be addressed here. I will start another article for that.

Grace to you,
Lou Newton,
Bond servant of Jesus

[Lou Newton]

Life in the spirit - death in the spirit

Quote Originally Posted by AGTG View Post

Knowing these things, I began to ponder about what "spiritual" death can mean as I began to notice scriptures in the New Testament that referenced death, but that did not quite make sense in the context of physical death (see Lou's article on spiritual death).

If we have a spirit person that gives us life, that spirit person can die if we neglect it or chose to rebel against Father God. There is more to this, but I don't have a handle on it enough as of right now. I encourage you all to read Lou's article and consider how these ideas may correlate.

Thanks Jeff for a really good article. This is such a large and important subject that many possible articles came to mind while reading yours.

There are many mysteries of the Kingdom of God that you have mentioned. They are very important and deep ones. But we have a revealer of all mysteries, Praise His Glorious Name, The Lord Jesus.

Job 11:7
◦New International Version
“Can you fathom the mysteries of God? Can you probe the limits of the Almighty?

Well the answer to Job's question is, NO we can not.

Romans 11
3 Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
34 “Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?”
35 “Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay them?”
36 For from him and through him and for him are all things
To him be the glory forever! Amen.

We have no hope of ever understanding these mysteries on our own. NONE. The man who thinks he is able, is on a fool's errand.

Daniel 2 Then Daniel praised the God of heaven, 20 saying, “Blessed be the name of God forever and ever, for he alone has all wisdom and all power. 21 World events are under his control. He removes kings and sets others on their thrones. He gives wise men their wisdom and scholars their intelligence. 22 He reveals profound mysteries beyond man’s understanding. He knows all hidden things, for he is light, and darkness is no obstacle to him .

Matthew 13:34-35
◦Living Bible
Jesus constantly used these illustrations when speaking to the crowds. In fact, because the prophets said that he would use so many, he never spoke to them without at least one illustration. For it had been prophesied, “I will talk in parables; I will explain mysteries hidden since the beginning of time.”

But even to those who read the words of Jesus, or heard Him speak when He walked the earth, they could not understand.

Matthew 13:11
◦American Standard Version
And he answered and said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

But even unto those who have been born again, we can not understand of ourselves, as stated earlier.

SO WHAT ABOUT THIS MYSTERY OF LIFE AND DEATH IN THE SPIRIT

Genesis 2
7 Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

The Lord is not speaking of natural breath here, but THE REAL BREATH OF LIFE, which is His Spirit. To explain why this is true, would take several articles about Genesis 1. I will write those and post them on this site, if The Lord is willing.

But we can see the same thing take place in the NT:

John 20
21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.

Have you ever noticed how the disciples were not very spiritual while following Jesus. They were always arguing and misunderstanding. But after this day, they were changed and were new creatures in Christ.

They were dead men walking before this day. After this day they were alive to The Holy Spirit, because The Holy Spirit lived in their spirit.

WE ALSO SEE FROM THESE TWO SCRIPTURES THAT THE SAME JESUS WHO BREATHED THE HOLY SPIRIT INTO THE DISCIPLES IS THE SAME JESUS WHO BREATHED THE BREATH OF LIFE INTO ADAM.

Yes, Jesus was born of a woman and was a baby. But He is no longer that baby. Yes, Jesus became fully human to prove to us that He understands us, and that He loves us. BUT, Jesus is The One and Only Almighty God and there is no other. He is The Creator of everything that exists.

It is not some minor God that is our Advocate, but The One and Only God Almighty. God Almighty is our Savior.

JESUS IS THE LIFE

Matthew 6:25
◦King James Version
Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

Life is more than the body as Jeff points out.

Matthew 6:27
◦New International Version
Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life?

We have no control over our life in the flesh or in the spirit. So why worry ? Jesus is The Life, trust in Him and only Him.

Matthew 7:14
◦English Standard Version
For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

John 14:6
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Jesus is not merely telling us that He is alive. He did not merely say that He is life, but said He is THE LIFE.

We know that there is no other way than Jesus.

Many do not seem to know that there is no truth other than Jesus.

BUT also there is no life except in Jesus.

Without His Holy Spirit we are dead in the spirit. Or dead men walking. Our bodies are alive, but that is not real life; for they will soon die. Real life is only in His Spirit. For that is eternal life with no end.

Jesus showed me this one day to make me understand:

He showed me a wall with two plants sticking above the wall. One plant was a beautiful rose on it's stem. The other was a rose bush that had been cut almost all the way down. The rose bush was in the winter and the rose was in the summer.

Jesus asked me, " son, which one is alive". I had come to know to think before answering His questions. I finally said, I do not know. The rose looks alive, but it could be dead. The bush looks dead, but could be alive. He said, " you have answered well my son". Then he revealed what was behind the wall. The rose was a beautiful rose bloom that had been cut off of the bush. It was dead and would soon show that death. The bush had been pruned and was now in the winter and so it looked dead. BUT it would soon show that it had life.

For the rose bloom has no way to get water and nourishment from the bush, for it has been cut off.

The bush was still connected to the roots. It could get water and nourishment. It was alive.

SO THERE IS ONE AND ONLY ONE THING THAT DETERMINES IF WE ARE DEAD OR ALIVE.

THAT IS; ARE WE CONNECTED TO THE HOLY SPIRIT OF THE LORD JESUS.

So when God breathed the breath of life into Adam, He breathed His Spirit into him. Adam then had life. Adam died in the spirit when he sinned and then lied to God, instead of confessing his sin to God. If Adam had confessed his sin to God, instead of blaming it on the woman that God put there, he would have been forgiven and still had life.

Adam did not die in the flesh, just as the rose bloom does not immediately look dead when cut off. But without the life that the Spirit of God brings, Adam was dead and would soon show that death about 900 years later. (or less that a "day" to God)

The disciples were dead men walking without The Holy Spirit. But when Jesus breathed on them and said, receive The Holy Spirit, they were born again and came to real life.

A way is not The Way if it leads toward where you want to go and then later leads away from that place.

The Truth is not really the truth unless it is always true. It can not seem to be true sometimes.

The same it true with life. Life is not life, if later it becomes death. Life is only real life if it is eternal life.

So what mere men call life, or life in the flesh, is not real life. For a short time later that same body will die and decay.

Real life, is eternal life in The Holy Spirit.

A SPIRIT WITHOUT JESUS IS DEAD

A SPIRIT WITH JESUS IS ALIVE

Pretty simple huh.

John 5
39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

The Pharisees were the brightest men of Israel. They studied the scriptures all of their life. They memorized whole books. BUT THEY WERE DEAD. NOT ONLY WERE THEY DEAD, BUT WHEN GOD STOOD RIGHT BEFORE THEM AND RAISED THE DEAD RIGHT BEFORE THEIR VERY EYES, THEY STILL COULD NOT SEE.

But a man born blind fell at the feet of Jesus and worshipped Him. Think of it, this man could not even read, and had no education.

John 9
35 Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and when he found him, he said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”

36 “Who is he, sir?” the man asked. “Tell me so that I may believe in him.”

37 Jesus said, “You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you.”

38 Then the man said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him.

39 Jesus said, “For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind.”40 Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and asked, “What? Are we blind too?”

41 Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.

NOTICE that the problem with the Pharisees was not that they could not see, but that they CLAIMED they could see.

The only qualification to be able to see, is to confess to The Lord Jesus that we are blind.

Notice the blind man who was healed, said, "WHO IS HE, SIR". He was confessing that he did not know who The Son of man was. What did Jesus do next ? Jesus revealed to the man who The Son of man was.

Grace to you,

Lou Newton
Bond servant of Jesus

[Lou Newton]

Why did the majority of the church believe there was no natural death until Adam sinned ?

WHY DID THE MAJORITY OF THE CHURCH BELIEVE THAT THERE WAS NO NATURAL DEATH UNTIL AFTER ADAM SINNED ?

This is a good question to ponder. But the answer is very short and simple. They simply misunderstood one scripture:

Romans 5
12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

They misunderstood that the death God was speaking here was REAL death, not simply the death of only a temporary part of the man, which is death of the body. The flesh is only temporary, and not eternal. The flesh is also a small part of a man. The soul is much more important and can be eternal. The spirit is the most important part of man and if The Holy Spirit lives in the man, it is eternal.

This is why Jesus called the death of the body, sleep. But there is another reason Jesus called death of the body sleep.

Let us look at the Book of Jonah:

Jonah 2 New International Version (NIV)

2 1 From inside the fish Jonah prayed to the Lord his God. 2 He said:


“In my distress I called to the Lord,
and he answered me.
From deep in the realm of the dead I called for help,
and you listened to my cry.
3 You hurled me into the depths,
into the very heart of the seas,
and the currents swirled about me;
all your waves and breakers
swept over me.
4 I said, ‘I have been banished
from your sight;
yet I will look again
toward your holy temple.’
5 The engulfing waters threatened me,
the deep surrounded me;
seaweed was wrapped around my head.
6 To the roots of the mountains I sank down;
the earth beneath barred me in forever.
But you, Lord my God,
brought my life up from the pit.


7 “When my life was ebbing away,
I remembered you, Lord,
and my prayer rose to you,
to your holy temple.


8 “Those who cling to worthless idols
turn away from God’s love for them.
9 But I, with shouts of grateful praise,
will sacrifice to you.
What I have vowed I will make good.
I will say, ‘Salvation comes from the Lord.’”

10 And the Lord commanded the fish, and it vomited Jonah onto dry land.

The sailors threw Jonah overboard at his request. He sank to the bottom of the sea. The pressure alone would kill a man even if he had air to breath. Then a whale ( or very large fish) swallowed Jonah and he was in that whale for 3 days and three nights.

But Jonah tells us himself that:

From deep in the realm of the dead I called for help,

Jonah was dead and God brought, "back my life from the pit". Jonah was dead and God raised him from the dead.

But we have even more testimony that this is true. And that testimony is from Jesus Himself.

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

So to doubt Jonah was dead in the body, is to doubt Jesus was dead in the earth.

BUT LOOK AT WHAT JONAH DID WHILE HE WAS DEAD - HE PRAYED

From inside the fish Jonah prayed to the Lord his God

So while we sleep we can not see or hear, but we can dream and think.

Also while we are dead in the body we can not see or hear, but we can dream and pray.

Jonah even was able to remember this prayer he prayed while dead and wrote it down for us all to read.

So many men refuse to believe God could raise the dead, so they say Jonah did not die. But what is harder to believe ?

That Jonah was thrown into the sea and sank to the very bottom and then swallowed by a whale and was inside for 3 days and 3 nights, and did NOT die.

Or that Jonah died and was raised from the dead as a sign that Jesus would be raised from the dead.

I would much rather be dead while going through all of this. To be alive would be simply terror.

God gave Jonah a restful sleep while he was taking a "submarine" ride back to shore. Jonah arrived rested and ready for the long trip to Nineveh.

Grace to you,

Lou Newton
Bond servant of Jesus

[Travis]

They misunderstood that the death God was speaking here was REAL death, not simply the death of only a temporary part of the man, which is death of the body. The flesh is only temporary, and not eternal. The flesh is also a small part of a man. The soul is much more important and can be eternal. The spirit is the most important part of man and if The Holy Spirit lives in the man, it is eternal.

This is why Jesus called the death of the body, sleep. But there is another reason Jesus called death of the body sleep.

Hey Lou,

That's a very significant statement you made there, from my point of view of where I am at in my thinking, at least. I have heard people say that our souls are only temporary, that they will not enter into eternity like our spirits will. But I don't think that is scriptural. We know that these mortal bodies (tents) we have on will pass away, but even those will be replaced at Jesus's coming, and we will have bodies like he now has. So, am I supposed to believe that I will receive a brand new soul at this time as well? That would mean losing all the memories of my soul, my character, all the work that Jesus has molded into my soul thus far, and will continue to do so in the future. That seems like a silly thought. I think Jesus is very interested about our souls, because they will have eternal meaning.

Psalm 23:3 ESV
He restores my soul. He leads me in paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

Sometimes our computer hard drives go faulty on us, break down, corrupt, and have errors. A good computer technician can almost always relocate and save any information that was lost or corrupted on that drive. I think Jesus is better than any mere computer technician, and can recover and restore any lost information he decides to. I think that information is important though, otherwise Jesus wouldn't invest so much time into it (our souls).

Here's my question,

Humans are born spiritually dead, so I see people walking around all the time who are dead in the most critical part of their being (They don't have God's Spirit in their spirit). But what does the death of a soul constitute? A dead spirit is still very much conscious. Based on a few scriptures, it would seem that a dead soul is conscious as well. So, what happens when a soul is "killed?"

Blessings,

Travis

[Lou Newton]

The soul

Hey Lou,

That's a very significant statement you made there, from my point of view of where I am at in my thinking, at least. I have heard people say that our souls are only temporary, that they will not enter into eternity like our spirits will. But I don't think that is scriptural. We know that these mortal bodies (tents) we have on will pass away, but even those will be replaced at Jesus's coming, and we will have bodies like he now has. So, am I supposed to believe that I will receive a brand new soul at this time as well? That would mean losing all the memories of my soul, my character, all the work that Jesus has molded into my soul thus far, and will continue to do so in the future. That seems like a silly thought. I think Jesus is very interested about our souls, because they will have eternal meaning.

Psalm 23:3 ESV
He restores my soul. He leads me in paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

Sometimes our computer hard drives go faulty on us, break down, corrupt, and have errors. A good computer technician can almost always relocate and save any information that was lost or corrupted on that drive. I think Jesus is better than any mere computer technician, and can recover and restore any lost information he decides to. I think that information is important though, otherwise Jesus wouldn't invest so much time into it (our souls).

Here's my question,

Humans are born spiritually dead, so I see people walking around all the time who are dead in the most critical part of their being (They don't have God's Spirit in their spirit). But what does the death of a soul constitute? A dead spirit is still very much conscious. Based on a few scriptures, it would seem that a dead soul is conscious as well. So, what happens when a soul is "killed?"

Blessings,

Travis

Very good question Travis. I will try to answer what I can.

We all seem to know what the body (or flesh) is. We even seem to understand the spirit somewhat. But the soul seems to be misunderstood by many.

Many confuse the soul and spirit. The body is our natural flesh and made of molecules. The spirit is not of this universe and can exist outside of the universe. The soul is hard to define.

But God created the soul in His second act of creation. The first act of creation was in the beginning when God created all of matter and energy. The second act was when He created the soul so the earth could produce animals that had a soul. The third act of creation was when God breathed the breath of life into man.

Now the fact that God created to soul in a different act than His act of creation of all matter and energy, would indicate that the soul is not made up of matter. It is very mysterious.

Now as to what is the soul. The soul is the will, the intellect, and the emotions. It may be centered in our brain.

One can list three parts to salvation:

1 - our spirit is saved when the Holy Spirit enters our spirit and it is made perfect by His presence.

2- our body is beyond salvation and will be saved, so to speak, when The Lord returns and gives us a new body.

3- we are here to get our souls saved. Our intellect, emotions, and will are all in error ( or sinful) by the error we have learned and the wrong way we allow our emotions to react.

No sin will enter heaven. We are also told that there will be different glories in heaven. Some will be like little children, and others will be given positions of authority.

So those who are willful and refuse to acknowledge their errors and refuse to turn from them, may have that part of their soul taken away. For no sin can enter. Sinful beliefs, sinful emotions, sinful wills, will be refused entry.

So God gives us His Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth. Those that follow His Spirit will have more of their soul saved. They that refuse to follow in some area will lose that part of their soul.

The three parts of salvation and the three acts of creation are scriptural and I have confidence in.

The part about some of the soul being saved and some not, may not be from The Lord, but it is what seems right to me at this time.

NOW AS TO THE DEATH OF THE SOUL

We can see from the experience of Jonah that the soul does not die when the body dies. For Jonah still used his intellect, emotions, and will after he died.

We can also see that the fat rich man called out to Abraham after his death.

It may be that the body dies at what men call death and the grave. The soul goes on after the death of the body. But may die in the lake of fire, or be saved for those who trust Jesus to save them.

Hopefully someone can find scriptures that shed light on these things. The more people that get involved, the more The Lord will bless us.


Grace to you,

Lou Newton
Bond servant of Jesus