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  • #46
    SOUL
    In light of the many posts about the soul the following is presented.

    The Hebrew word is nephesh. In the KJV it is translated soul 443 times. However, some of the modern version often translate as nephesh being. The NASB translates nephesh as soul only 245 times. It can also mean animal. Let us look at two verses.

    Genesis 2:7King James Version (KJV)
    7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
    One may rightly wish to question how literally this verse should be interpreted. Here is what I think the verse literally provides from a modern perspective.
    FIRST: The LORD used the periodic table of elements available on earth (dust) to form a body.
    SECOND: The LORD gave the body spirit. The LORD breathed (Hebrew ruach) into his nose.
    The Hebrew ruach is the word used for breath, breathed, spirit, and wind. It is the LORD who gives life and takes it away. Life is from the LORD.
    THIRD: man became a living soul or being.
    A living soul or being is composed of two entities: dust of the earth and life or spirit from the LORD. The life or spirit doesn’t belong to the body. Life or spirit is the LORD’s property as is the dust.

    Genesis 46:26King James Version (KJV)
    26 All the souls that came with Jacob into Egypt, which came out of his loins, besides Jacob's sons' wives, all the souls (nephesh) were threescore and six;
    This passage is about 66 souls plus Jacob going to Egypt. Were these 66 ghosts or were they live people?

    H. Wheeler Robinson (1872-1945) presents a biblical position for the nature of man being a Hebrew dichotomy (body and spirit) rather than the Greek idea of the trichotomy (body, soul, and spirit) which has occupied western philosophy and theology. His commentary on Romans is excellent in presenting his position in reference to the New Testament and the Greek text and Greek philosophical influences on western language translations.

    H. Wheeler Robinson became Principal of Regent's Park Baptist College, then still in London, and was responsible for moving the college to its present location at Oxford. When he came to Oxford as Principal of Regent’s Park College, he was the most outstanding British Old Testament scholar of the day. The Faculty of Theology immediately appointed him as an examiner, and he became a Reader in Biblical Criticism in 1934 and the Old Testament tutor for Mansfield College (F.M. Turner, The History of the University of Oxford. Vol. VIII: The Twentieth Century. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1994, 297).
    He was President of the Society for Old Testament Study in 1929 and Acting President 1941-45.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by glen smith View Post
      Death - are there different kinds of death ?
      Well the post spread out like a broken dam on this subject, but it seems to finally run out of water back in November 2015. I’d like to add a little more rain to these comments. I will post three times to separate the issues. TIME, SOUL, FIRST RESURRECTION AND THE SECOND DEATH

      TIME:
      Before the foundation of the world (this creation) –
      Ephesians 1:4 KJV
      According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

      Hebrews 4:3
      For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

      I suspect the posts are on a reasonable explanation for time – Consider time is a part of this creation where time is measured in the movement over distances. Eternity with the LORD may be another way of saying that there is an existence or divine creation outside of this creation where there is no time or movement over distances. Therefore, there is no past, present, and future. The eternity creation might be a constant present – everything is in the present – no passage of time and therefore, eternity or everlasting is eternal from this creations perspective. Observing this creation from an eternity creation might have the advantage of observing all earth’s history from beginning to end as if it were present. This might be what it means to have your name and your deeds recorded in the books in heaven – a video where all the scenes are viewed at once. Can you imagine watching every moment, every deed, and every word of your life while standing beside everyone in heaven – spouse, children, parents, friends, pastor, and employer! Oh, there is good news! Most of that life is covered or obscured by the blood of Jesus, and you are the only one who knows what is under the blood. . . . Phew!

      An insightful story comes from a man who clinically died and was revived. He said the music in heaven was indescribable and the most beautiful he ever heard, but there was no beat or rhythm. Beat and rhythm require the passage of time.
      Hi Glen, thanks.

      Just to make it clear to others reading this:

      The two kinds of death that I wrote about were not the first resurrection and the second death.

      I am speaking of natural death of the body, as Jesus called sleep;

      and real death or spiritual death. After the sin of Adam we are all born with a dead spirit and we need to be born again ( of the spirit) to have eternal life.

      I certainly believe we have a natural body of flesh, that the Bible speaks of. This natural body will die and decay in a short time. That is what Paul is speaking of when he says the flesh is corruptible ( it decays or corrupts). No flesh will enter heaven, so flesh was never eternal. We love our flesh, so we want to preserve it. That fact makes us selfish, or sinful.

      1 Cor 15

      35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

      42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

      If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man,so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.

      50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

      55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
      Where, O death, is your sting?”

      56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

      58 Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.

      ************************************************** ********************

      NOTICE: the sting of death is sin - NOT the sting of sin is death

      The wages of sin is death - Here Paul is speaking of sin causes real death, or spiritual death or eternal death.

      BUT the sting of death is sin - here Paul is speaking that natural death ( what Jesus called sleep) causes sin. The fact that we see everything around us dies, we know that we will die this natural death. That fact makes us want to HANG ONTO OUR LIFE. But Jesus said that those that hang onto their life will lose it. ( or those that try to hang onto natural life will lose their eternal life). Jesus went on to say that those that give up their life will gain it. Jesus is speaking of the fact that those that give their life to Jesus ( and leave Him be The Lord of their life) will gain eternal life.

      There are two kinds of life - NATURAL LIFE ( or temporary life ) and REAL LIFE ( or spiritual , or eternal life)

      Those that are born of the spirit ( or born again, first of the flesh and then born again of the spirit) will be given a new type of body and live forever with The Lord Jesus.

      TIME - of course there was no TIME before the beginning. That is the beginning of time. There was no time before that.
      Last edited by Lou Newton; March 21st, 2017, 11:51 PM.

      Comment


      • #48
        Exactly:
        Two deaths for those whose names are not written in the book of life - physical death followed by spiritual death.
        One death for those whose names are written in the book of life - physical death.

        One resurrection for those whose names are not written in the book of life - raised for judgment.
        Two resurrections for those whose names are written in the book of life - born again or spiritual at conversion is the first resurrection and a second resurrection at the second coming.

        Believers have one death and two resurrections.
        Unbelivers have two deaths and one resurrection.
        If you are not of the first resurrection you die physically and are raised to die spiritually.

        Comment


        • #49
          Since no one counter posted:

          Lou's point I think is recognized and described?

          The state of being spiritual dead while alive –
          Referred to as the first death.

          Born again (saved/salvation) is the first resurrection.

          Physical death is referred to as the second death -
          For which death has no power over those who have been born again while alive in this world.

          The second resurrection would include those dead in Christ (sheep) and those dead unbelievers (goats).

          In this scenario:
          The first death refers to spiritual death and not to dying physically.
          Therefore, the second death would never refer to spiritual death but to dying physically.
          All who are born enter life spiritual dead.

          The question arises: If new born babies are born spiritual dead.
          Therefore, if a new born baby dies, the child is dead physically and spiritually?

          As for children, not yet responsible before God, I suspect the psalmist tells us their names are in the book of the living because all men start life with their names in the book of the living.

          Psalm 9:5
          5Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever.

          Psalm 69:28
          Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

          Are these passages to be understood as parabolic scenarios; that are not representing the case where everyone begins life with their name in the Book of the Living, but just a hypothetical case as if the name had actually been in the Book of Life and has now removed or lost? Is the psalmist is using removal of the name as a literary device to demonstrate what the wicked have forfeited or is this to be taken literally?
          Last edited by glen smith; April 11th, 2017, 03:06 PM.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by glen smith View Post
            Since no one counter posted:

            Lou's point I think is recognized and described?

            The state of being spiritual dead while alive –
            Referred to as the first death.

            Born again (saved/salvation) is the first resurrection.

            Physical death is referred to as the second death -
            For which death has no power over those who have been born again while alive in this world.

            The second resurrection would include those dead in Christ (sheep) and those dead unbelievers (goats).

            In this scenario:
            The first death refers to spiritual death and not to dying physically.
            Therefore, the second death would never refer to spiritual death but to dying physically.
            All who are born enter life spiritual dead.

            The question arises: If new born babies are born spiritual dead.
            Therefore, if a new born baby dies, the child is dead physically and spiritually?

            As for children, not yet responsible before God, I suspect the psalmist tells us their names are in the book of the living because all men start life with their names in the book of the living.

            Psalm 9:5
            5Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever.

            Psalm 69:28
            Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

            Are these passages to be understood as parabolic scenarios; that are not representing the case where everyone begins life with their name in the Book of the Living, but just a hypothetical case as if the name had actually been in the Book of Life and has now removed or lost? Is the psalmist is using removal of the name as a literary device to demonstrate what the wicked have forfeited or is this to be taken literally?
            Hi Glen, you wrote:
            All who are born enter life spiritual dead.

            The question arises: If new born babies are born spiritual dead.
            Therefore, if a new born baby dies, the child is dead physically and spiritually?


            There might be an exception to this. John the baptist was filled with The Holy Spirit before birth.

            Luke 1
            The Birth of John the Baptist Foretold


            5 In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah; his wife Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron. 6Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, observing all the Lord’s commands and decrees blamelessly. 7 But they were childless because Elizabeth was not able to conceive, and they were both very old.

            8 Once when Zechariah’s division was on duty and he was serving as priest before God, 9 he was chosen by lot, according to the custom of the priesthood, to go into the temple of the Lord and burn incense. 10 And when the time for the burning of incense came, all the assembled worshipers were praying outside.

            11 Then an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing at the right side of the altar of incense. 12 When Zechariah saw him, he was startled and was gripped with fear. 13 But the angel said to him: “Do not be afraid,Zechariah; your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you are to call him John. 14 He will be a joy and delight to you, and many will rejoice because of his birth, 15 for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink,and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born. 16 He will bring back many of the people of Israel to the Lord their God. 17 And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the parents to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous—to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”

            18 Zechariah asked the angel, “How can I be sure of this? I am an old man and my wife is well along in years.”

            19 The angel said to him, “I am Gabriel. I stand in the presence of God, and I have been sent to speak to you and to tell you this good news.20 And now you will be silent and not able to speak until the day this happens, because you did not believe my words, which will come true at their appointed time.”

            21 Meanwhile, the people were waiting for Zechariah and wondering why he stayed so long in the temple. 22 When he came out, he could not speak to them. They realized he had seen a vision in the temple, for he kept making signs to them but remained unable to speak.

            23 When his time of service was completed, he returned home. 24 After this his wife Elizabeth became pregnant and for five months remained in seclusion. 25 “The Lord has done this for me,” she said. “In these days he has shown his favor and taken away my disgrace among the people.”

            Comment


            • #51
              Luke 1

              The Birth of John the Baptist Foretold



              5 In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah; his wife Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron. 6Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, observing all the Lord’s commands and decrees blamelessly. 7 But they were childless because Elizabeth was not able to conceive, and they were both very old.

              ...........................

              11 Then an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing at the right side of the altar of incense. 12 When Zechariah saw him, he was startled and was gripped with fear. 13 But the angel said to him: “Do not be afraid,Zechariah; your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you are to call him John. 14 He will be a joy and delight to you, and many will rejoice because of his birth, 15 for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink,and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born. 16 He will bring back many of the people of Israel to the Lord their God. 17 And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the parents to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous—to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”

              ...................................
              Mary Visits Elizabeth


              39 At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea, 40 where she entered Zechariah’s home and greeted Elizabeth.41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 In a loud voice she exclaimed: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43 But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. 45 Blessed is she who has believed that the Lord would fulfill his promises to her!”

              ..................................
              Zechariah’s Song


              67 His father Zechariah was filled with the Holy Spirit and prophesied:

              68 “Praise be to the Lord, the God of Israel,
              because he has come to his people and redeemed them.
              69He has raised up a horn of salvation for us
              in the house of his servant David

              70 (as he said through his holy prophets of long ago),
              71 salvation from our enemies
              and from the hand of all who hate us—
              72 to show mercy to our ancestors
              and to remember his holy covenant,
              73 the oath he swore to our father Abraham:
              74 to rescue us from the hand of our enemies,
              and to enable us to serve him without fear
              75 in holiness and righteousness before him all our days.

              76And you, my child, will be called a prophet of the Most High;
              for you will go on before the Lord to prepare the way for him,

              77 to give his people the knowledge of salvation
              through the forgiveness of their sins,
              78 because of the tender mercy of our God,
              by which the rising sun will come to us from heaven
              79 to shine on those living in darkness
              and in the shadow of death,
              to guide our feet into the path of peace.”

              80 And the child grew and became strong in spirit; and he lived in the wilderness until he appeared publicly to Israel.


              We see that The Holy Scriptures record that both Zechariah and Elizabeth were filled with The Holy Spirit AND they were both blameless before The Lord. There is no way to be blameless before God except to confess your sin and be born again and receive His Holy Spirit.

              BUT how can a baby be filled with The Holy Spirit before birth.

              1 - This would tend to prove that babies are alive in the womb before birth and can even hear their parents talk and choose God before birth. I know babies can hear in the womb, because I can remember hearing my parents talk when I was in the womb. I did not know who they were or understand what they said, but I have very vivid memories about being in a dark warm place and hearing these people talk. A doctor later in my life ( age 11 or 12) was able to show me these memories were while I was in the womb. Many studies have proven babies can hear in the womb and remember after birth being in the womb. God can bring light to anyone, even a baby in the womb like John.

              2 - Adam sinned and died in the spirit and passed down this same death to his descendants. But men can be saved by confessing their sin and being born again of the spirit and His Holy Spirit coming to live in their spirit to bring life.

              3 - So if dead men pass on death, can men born again pass on life to their children ? After all, if Adam had not sinned he would not have passed on death, would he ? Adam then would have passed on life, or The Spirit of God to his children.

              I was not born again when my first two children were born, and they were not born with His Holy Spirit but had to be born again. This was very evident to me as I remember them in their early childhood.

              But I was born again when my last child was born and he certainly seemed different and was definitely filled with The Holy Spirit at a very young age. I just see today, that he might have been born with The Holy Spirit, but I certainly do not know at this time. But I do know he had the Holy Spirit at age three and at times certainly revealed he was filled with The Holy Spirit.

              What scriptures comes to your mind about this subject ? Please post it.
              Last edited by Lou Newton; April 12th, 2017, 01:02 AM.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Lou Newton View Post
                Luke 1

                The Birth of John the Baptist Foretold



                5 In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah; his wife Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron. 6Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, observing all the Lord’s commands and decrees blamelessly. 7 But they were childless because Elizabeth was not able to conceive, and they were both very old.

                ...........................

                11 Then an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing at the right side of the altar of incense. 12 When Zechariah saw him, he was startled and was gripped with fear. 13 But the angel said to him: “Do not be afraid,Zechariah; your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you are to call him John. 14 He will be a joy and delight to you, and many will rejoice because of his birth, 15 for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink,and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born. 16 He will bring back many of the people of Israel to the Lord their God. 17 And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the parents to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous—to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”

                ...................................
                Mary Visits Elizabeth


                39 At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea, 40 where she entered Zechariah’s home and greeted Elizabeth.41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 In a loud voice she exclaimed: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43 But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. 45 Blessed is she who has believed that the Lord would fulfill his promises to her!”

                ..................................
                Zechariah’s Song


                67 His father Zechariah was filled with the Holy Spirit and prophesied:

                68 “Praise be to the Lord, the God of Israel,
                because he has come to his people and redeemed them.
                69He has raised up a horn of salvation for us
                in the house of his servant David

                70 (as he said through his holy prophets of long ago),
                71 salvation from our enemies
                and from the hand of all who hate us—
                72 to show mercy to our ancestors
                and to remember his holy covenant,
                73 the oath he swore to our father Abraham:
                74 to rescue us from the hand of our enemies,
                and to enable us to serve him without fear
                75 in holiness and righteousness before him all our days.

                76And you, my child, will be called a prophet of the Most High;
                for you will go on before the Lord to prepare the way for him,

                77 to give his people the knowledge of salvation
                through the forgiveness of their sins,
                78 because of the tender mercy of our God,
                by which the rising sun will come to us from heaven
                79 to shine on those living in darkness
                and in the shadow of death,
                to guide our feet into the path of peace.”

                80 And the child grew and became strong in spirit; and he lived in the wilderness until he appeared publicly to Israel.


                We see that The Holy Scriptures record that both Zechariah and Elizabeth were filled with The Holy Spirit AND they were both blameless before The Lord. There is no way to be blameless before God except to confess your sin and be born again and receive His Holy Spirit.

                BUT how can a baby be filled with The Holy Spirit before birth.

                1 - This would tend to prove that babies are alive in the womb before birth and can even hear their parents talk and choose God before birth. I know babies can hear in the womb, because I can remember hearing my parents talk when I was in the womb. I did not know who they were or understand what they said, but I have very vivid memories about being in a dark warm place and hearing these people talk. A doctor later in my life ( age 11 or 12) was able to show me these memories were while I was in the womb. Many studies have proven babies can hear in the womb and remember after birth being in the womb. God can bring light to anyone, even a baby in the womb like John.

                2 - Adam sinned and died in the spirit and passed down this same death to his descendants. But men can be saved by confessing their sin and being born again of the spirit and His Holy Spirit coming to live in their spirit to bring life.

                3 - So if dead men pass on death, can men born again pass on life to their children ? After all, if Adam had not sinned he would not have passed on death, would he ? Adam then would have passed on life, or The Spirit of God to his children.

                I was not born again when my first two children were born, and they were not born with His Holy Spirit but had to be born again. This was very evident to me as I remember them in their early childhood.

                But I was born again when my last child was born and he certainly seemed different and was definitely filled with The Holy Spirit at a very young age. I just see today, that he might have been born with The Holy Spirit, but I certainly do not know at this time. But I do know he had the Holy Spirit at age three and at times certainly revealed he was filled with The Holy Spirit.

                What scriptures comes to your mind about this subject ? Please post it.
                I thought there would certainly be some comments about this post. I have never heard this concept anywhere before. It seems to be contrary to most church doctrine. BUT the concept seems pretty valid to me.

                Certainly someone has a comment.

                Agree - disagree - shocked - pondering - praying about it ?

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Lou Newton View Post
                  Luke 1

                  The Birth of John the Baptist Foretold



                  5 In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah; his wife Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron. 6Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, observing all the Lord’s commands and decrees blamelessly. 7 But they were childless because Elizabeth was not able to conceive, and they were both very old.

                  ...........................

                  11 Then an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing at the right side of the altar of incense. 12 When Zechariah saw him, he was startled and was gripped with fear. 13 But the angel said to him: “Do not be afraid,Zechariah; your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you are to call him John. 14 He will be a joy and delight to you, and many will rejoice because of his birth, 15 for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink,and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born. 16 He will bring back many of the people of Israel to the Lord their God. 17 And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the parents to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous—to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”

                  ...................................
                  Mary Visits Elizabeth


                  39 At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea, 40 where she entered Zechariah’s home and greeted Elizabeth.41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 In a loud voice she exclaimed: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43 But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. 45 Blessed is she who has believed that the Lord would fulfill his promises to her!”

                  ..................................
                  Zechariah’s Song


                  67 His father Zechariah was filled with the Holy Spirit and prophesied:

                  68 “Praise be to the Lord, the God of Israel,
                  because he has come to his people and redeemed them.
                  69He has raised up a horn of salvation for us
                  in the house of his servant David

                  70 (as he said through his holy prophets of long ago),
                  71 salvation from our enemies
                  and from the hand of all who hate us—
                  72 to show mercy to our ancestors
                  and to remember his holy covenant,
                  73 the oath he swore to our father Abraham:
                  74 to rescue us from the hand of our enemies,
                  and to enable us to serve him without fear
                  75 in holiness and righteousness before him all our days.

                  76And you, my child, will be called a prophet of the Most High;
                  for you will go on before the Lord to prepare the way for him,

                  77 to give his people the knowledge of salvation
                  through the forgiveness of their sins,
                  78 because of the tender mercy of our God,
                  by which the rising sun will come to us from heaven
                  79 to shine on those living in darkness
                  and in the shadow of death,
                  to guide our feet into the path of peace.”

                  80 And the child grew and became strong in spirit; and he lived in the wilderness until he appeared publicly to Israel.


                  We see that The Holy Scriptures record that both Zechariah and Elizabeth were filled with The Holy Spirit AND they were both blameless before The Lord. There is no way to be blameless before God except to confess your sin and be born again and receive His Holy Spirit.

                  BUT how can a baby be filled with The Holy Spirit before birth.

                  1 - This would tend to prove that babies are alive in the womb before birth and can even hear their parents talk and choose God before birth. I know babies can hear in the womb, because I can remember hearing my parents talk when I was in the womb. I did not know who they were or understand what they said, but I have very vivid memories about being in a dark warm place and hearing these people talk. A doctor later in my life ( age 11 or 12) was able to show me these memories were while I was in the womb. Many studies have proven babies can hear in the womb and remember after birth being in the womb. God can bring light to anyone, even a baby in the womb like John.

                  2 - Adam sinned and died in the spirit and passed down this same death to his descendants. But men can be saved by confessing their sin and being born again of the spirit and His Holy Spirit coming to live in their spirit to bring life.

                  3 - So if dead men pass on death, can men born again pass on life to their children ? After all, if Adam had not sinned he would not have passed on death, would he ? Adam then would have passed on life, or The Spirit of God to his children.

                  I was not born again when my first two children were born, and they were not born with His Holy Spirit but had to be born again. This was very evident to me as I remember them in their early childhood.

                  But I was born again when my last child was born and he certainly seemed different and was definitely filled with The Holy Spirit at a very young age. I just see today, that he might have been born with The Holy Spirit, but I certainly do not know at this time. But I do know he had the Holy Spirit at age three and at times certainly revealed he was filled with The Holy Spirit.

                  What scriptures comes to your mind about this subject ? Please post it.
                  I am shocked that no one posted these scriptures:

                  John 3: 3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

                  Romans 3: There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

                  1 John 1: 8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

                  The scriptures above are all totally true. But the scripture in Luke is also totally true:

                  14 He will be a joy and delight to you, and many will rejoice because of his birth, 15 for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink,and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born.

                  Now will someone make a comment: what passage of scripture can you think of that would have anything to do with this subject.

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                  • #54
                    In the case of John the Baptizer the exception proves the rule . . . . if there is such a rule. Within divine providence there is always the possibility of an exception for the purpose of the divine plan. I don’t know of another passage about the spiritual condition of infants either born or prenatal than those provided earlier, but this would not necessarily mean they had a saving relationship with God, but that they are not held accountable – as in the idea of the age of accountability.

                    I suspect the psalmist tells us their names are in the book of the living because all men start life with their names in the book of the living.

                    Psalm 9:5
                    5Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever.

                    Psalm 69:28
                    Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.


                    Are these passages to be understood as parabolic scenarios; that are not representing the case where everyone begins life with their name in the Book of the Living, but just a hypothetical case as if the name had actually been in the Book of Life and has now removed or lost? Is the psalmist is using removal of the name as a literary device to demonstrate what the wicked have forfeited or is this to be taken literally?

                    In some post my question pointed to the conclusion of the stated position would be that all babies are born lost. This kind of theological construct comes from Calvinism through the use of “"in Adam all men have sinned.”" These New Testament passages are addressing the corporate nature of mankind and not the condition of the individual. Calvinism transfers the idea of Adam as the head of all mankind through which sin entered the world to the spiritual results in individuals. This is similar but opposite to the ledger book accounting used in salvation where justification is the legal standing with God which changes the believer’s status (name in the book of life) but not his nature. Calvinism reverses this to claim that Adam’s sin changed each individual’s status with God but Calvinism also includes his nature.

                    My opinion: Children and the preborn are without guilt. The do not inherit Adam’s sin. They inherit the separation from the LORD which entered through Adam which the entire human race inherits. Babies are not sinners. Therefore, a baby that dies is guiltless and figurative the name remains in “the Book of the Living” as mentioned in Psalms. Every man stands for his judgment based upon what he has done and not on what Adam did.

                    The spiritual awareness of the children of either the godly or the ungodly parent covers the possible spectrum. If we have guardian angels the spiritual growth and protection of some children could be explained. It seems to me that it is more likely the children of godly parents develop a saving relationship with the LORD.

                    My personal experience was an awareness of the LORD was always with me. At the very first moment this awareness disappeared I asked to be baptized at age three. I do not think this is normative for most Christians and accordingly should not be the expectation of a child's spiritual awareness. However, with godly parents comes early awareness.
                    Last edited by glen smith; April 13th, 2017, 09:39 PM.

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