Why did God invite Satan to speak but have the earth swallow up Korah

[Lou Newton]

God invited Satan to present himself and then asked Satan a question and allowed him to make false accusations against God and Job. God not only allowed this, but then recorded the false accusations of Satan for all to read.

On the other hand, when Korah made false accusations against Moses in the whole assembly of Israel; God had the earth open up and swallow Korah up along with everyone that had decided to follow him. Read about Korah in post #2.

WHY ? Why did God seem to handle these two things differently ?

Remember God never changes, never has changed, and never will change. The same God that died on the cross for us, is the same God that did both of these things.

Please think about these two events and ask God about them. Then wait for His answer.

Grace to you
Lou Newton

[Lou Newton]

Korah, Dathan and Abiram

1 Korah son of Izhar, the son of Kohath, the son of Levi, and certain Reubenites--Dathan and Abiram, sons of Eliab, and On son of Peleth--became insolent
2 and rose up against Moses. With them were 250 Israelite men, well-known community leaders who had been appointed members of the council.
3 They came as a group to oppose Moses and Aaron and said to them, "You have gone too far! The whole community is holy, every one of them, and the LORD is with them. Why then do you set yourselves above the LORD's assembly?"

4 When Moses heard this, he fell facedown.
5 Then he said to Korah and all his followers: "In the morning the LORD will show who belongs to him and who is holy, and he will have that person come near him. The man he chooses he will cause to come near him.
6 You, Korah, and all your followers are to do this: Take censers
7 and tomorrow put fire and incense in them before the LORD. The man the LORD chooses will be the one who is holy. You Levites have gone too far!"
8 Moses also said to Korah, "Now listen, you Levites!
9 Isn't it enough for you that the God of Israel has separated you from the rest of the Israelite community and brought you near himself to do the work at the LORD's tabernacle and to stand before the community and minister to them?
10 He has brought you and all your fellow Levites near himself, but now you are trying to get the priesthood too.
11 It is against the LORD that you and all your followers have banded together. Who is Aaron that you should grumble against him?"

12 Then Moses summoned Dathan and Abiram, the sons of Eliab. But they said, "We will not come!
13 Isn't it enough that you have brought us up out of a land flowing with milk and honey to kill us in the desert? And now you also want to lord it over us?
14 Moreover, you haven't brought us into a land flowing with milk and honey or given us an inheritance of fields and vineyards. Will you gouge out the eyes of these men? No, we will not come!"

15 Then Moses became very angry and said to the LORD, "Do not accept their offering. I have not taken so much as a donkey from them, nor have I wronged any of them."
16 Moses said to Korah, "You and all your followers are to appear before the LORD tomorrow--you and they and Aaron.
17 Each man is to take his censer and put incense in it--250 censers in all--and present it before the LORD. You and Aaron are to present your censers also."
18 So each man took his censer, put fire and incense in it, and stood with
Moses and Aaron at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting.
19 When Korah had gathered all his followers in opposition to them at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting, the glory of the LORD appeared to the entire assembly.

20 The LORD said to Moses and Aaron,
21"Separate yourselves from this assembly so I can put an end to them at once."
22But Moses and Aaron fell facedown and cried out, "O God, God of the spirits of all mankind, will you be angry with the entire assembly when only one man sins?"
23Then the LORD said to Moses,
24 "Say to the assembly, 'Move away from the tents of Korah, Dathan and Abiram.' "
25 Moses got up and went to Dathan and Abiram, and the elders of Israel followed him.
26 He warned the assembly, "Move back from the tents of these wicked men! Do not touch anything belonging to them, or you will be swept away because of all their sins."
27 So they moved away from the tents of Korah, Dathan and Abiram. Dathan and Abiram had come out and were standing with their wives, children and little ones at the entrances to their tents.
28 Then Moses said, "This is how you will know that the LORD has sent me to do all these things and that it was not my idea:
29 If these men die a natural death and experience only what usually happens to men, then the LORD has not sent me.
30 But if the LORD brings about something totally new, and the earth opens its mouth and swallows them, with everything that belongs to them, and they go down alive into the grave, then you will know that these men have treated the LORD with contempt."
31 As soon as he finished saying all this, the ground under them split apart
32 and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them, with their households and all Korah's men and all their possessions.
33They went down alive into the grave, with everything they owned; the earth closed over them, and they perished and were gone from the community.
34 At their cries, all the Israelites around them fled, shouting, "The earth is going to swallow us too!"
35 And fire came out from the LORD and consumed the 250 men who were offering the incense.

36 The LORD said to Moses,
37 "Tell Eleazar son of Aaron, the priest, to take the censers out of the smoldering remains and scatter the coals some distance away, for the censers are holy--
38 the censers of the men who sinned at the cost of their lives. Hammer the censers into sheets to overlay the altar, for they were presented before the LORD and have become holy. Let them be a sign to the Israelites."
39 So Eleazar the priest collected the bronze censers brought by those who had been burned up, and he had them hammered out to overlay the altar,
40 as the LORD directed him through Moses. This was to remind the Israelites that no one except a descendant of Aaron should come to burn incense before the LORD, or he would become like Korah and his followers.

41 The next day the whole Israelite community grumbled against Moses and Aaron. "You have killed the LORD's people," they said.
42 But when the assembly gathered in opposition to Moses and Aaron and turned toward the Tent of Meeting, suddenly the cloud covered it and the glory of the LORD appeared.
43 Then Moses and Aaron went to the front of the Tent of Meeting,
44and the LORD said to Moses,
45 "Get away from this assembly so I can put an end to them at once." And they fell facedown.
46 Then Moses said to Aaron, "Take your censer and put incense in it, along with fire from the altar, and hurry to the assembly to make atonement for them. Wrath has come out from the LORD;the plague has started."
47 So Aaron did as Moses said, and ran into the midst of the assembly. The plague had already started among the people, but Aaron offered the incense and made atonement for them.
48 He stood between the living and the dead, and the plague stopped.
49 But 14,700 people died from the plague, in addition to those who had died because of Korah.
50 Then Aaron returned to Moses at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting, for the plague had stopped.

[Lou Newton]

Job 1
Job's First Test

6 One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them.
7 The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?" Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."
8 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."
9 "Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan replied.
10"Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has?You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land.
11 But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has,and he will surely curse you to your face."
12 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger." Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.

Job 2
Job's Second Test

1 On another day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them to present himself before him.
2 And the LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?" Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."
3 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason."
4 "Skin for skin!" Satan replied. "A man will give all he has for his own life.
5 But stretch out your hand and strike his flesh and bones, and he will surely curse you to your face."
6 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, he is in your hands; but you must spare his life."
7 So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD and afflicted Job with painful sores from the soles of his feet to the top of his head.

[Baruch]

Lou, it feels like cheating because you and I briefly talked about this. So I will try to offer something different that I hope will add to it.

The scene with Korah follows the type of "sin in the camp" we see in the OT, and in Paul's writings about the church. In the OT we see God commanding the Israelites to send sinners outside the common area while they remain unclean; and conduct during military campaigns, for example any who are defiled in the night should leave the camp, and not to covet or touch the unclean things among the spoils of the enemy. Man is easily swayed to choose to sin under temptation. Sin spreads quickly.

This begs the question: why did God invite Satan the lord of the dead, father of sin, into His camp? Certainly Satan cannot tempt God, but he did cause one third of the host of heaven to follow him--which was allowed to happen, it seems, partly because God respects free will. Presumably those in attendance at His court still had free will.

The difference seems to be who was present (and presiding) in each scenario, and where each took place. These are critical differences.

[Lou Newton]

Lou, it feels like cheating because you and I briefly talked about this. So I will try to offer something different that I hope will add to it.

The scene with Korah follows the type of "sin in the camp" we see in the OT, and in Paul's writings about the church. In the OT we see God commanding the Israelites to send sinners outside the common area while they remain unclean; and conduct during military campaigns, for example any who are defiled in the night should leave the camp, and not to covet or touch the unclean things among the spoils of the enemy. Man is easily swayed to choose to sin under temptation. Sin spreads quickly.

This begs the question: why did God invite Satan the lord of the dead, father of sin, into His camp? Certainly Satan cannot tempt God, but he did cause one third of the host of heaven to follow him--which was allowed to happen, it seems, partly because God respects free will. Presumably those in attendance at His court still had free will.

The difference seems to be who was present (and presiding) in each scenario, and where each took place. These are critical differences.

Thanks for the reply Barry.

You have made some very good comments.

In fact you caused me to think of something in reply to you.

THE SCRIPTURES DO NOT SAY THAT SATAN CAME INTO HEAVEN. It says he presented himself before The Lord. That could have been on the earth. For Melchizedek, The King of Righteousness, the King of Peace,( Salem or Jerusalem) who had no beginning and no end, he also had no mother or father, and had the power of an indestructible life.

So Melchizedek has to be God Almighty, for he is the only one who those things are true about.

So could Satan have presented himself before Melchizedek in Salem. I have always had the question of how could God allow sin in heaven. That is why Satan was thrown out of heaven.

So could Satan have presented himself to God in Salem here on the earth. Could it have been a private meeting between God and Satan, or may have included a few of God's angels, or even all of them. But there may have been no humans there. In fact there is no mention of any man being there.

HEBREWS 7 Melchizedek the Priest

1 This Melchizedek was king of Salem and priest of God Most High. He met Abraham returning from the defeat of the kings and blessed him,
2 and Abraham gave him a tenth of everything. First, his name means "king of righteousness"; then also, "king of Salem" means "king of peace."
3 Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he remains a priest forever.
4 Just think how great he was: Even the patriarchAbraham gave him a tenth of the plunder!
5 Now the law requires the descendants of Levi who become priests to collect a tenth from the people--that is, their brothers--even though their brothers are descended from Abraham.
6 This man, however, did not trace his descent from Levi, yet he collected a tenth from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises.
7 And without doubt the lesser person is blessed by the greater.
8 In the one case, the tenth is collected by men who die; but in the other case, by him who is declared to be living.
9 One might even say that Levi, who collects the tenth, paid the tenth through Abraham,
10because when Melchizedek met Abraham, Levi was still in the body of his ancestor.
Jesus Like Melchizedek

11 If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the law was given to the people), why was there still need for another priest to come--one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron?
12 For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law.
13 He of whom these things are said belonged to a different tribe, and no one from that tribe has ever served at the altar.
14 For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests.
15 And what we have said is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears,
16 one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life.
17 For it is declared: "You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek."
18The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless
19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.
20 And it was not without an oath! Others became priests without any oath,
21 but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him: "The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind: 'You are a priest forever.' "
22Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.
23Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office;
24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood.
25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to Godthrough him, because he always lives to intercede for them.
26 Such a high priestmeets our need--one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens.
27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.
28 For the law appoints as high priests men who are weak; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.

[Lou Newton]

Job 1:6 in many English translations

KJ21

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.

ASV

Now it came to pass on the day when the sons of God came to present themselves before Jehovah, that Satan also came among them.

AMP

Now there was a day when the sons of God (angels) came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan (adversary, accuser) also came among them.

AMPC

Now there was a day when the sons (the angels) of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan (the adversary and accuser) also came among them.

BRG

¶ Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.

CEB

One day the divine beings came to present themselves before the Lord, and the Adversary also came among them.

CJB

It happened one day that the sons of God came to serve Adonai, and among them came the Adversary .

CEV

One day, when the angels had gathered around the Lord, and Satan was there with them,

DARBY

And there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before Jehovah; and Satan came also among them.

DRA

Now on a certain day when the sons of God came to stand before the Lord, Satan also was present among them.

ERV

Then the day came for the angels to meet with the Lord. Even Satan was there with them.

ESV

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.

ESVUK

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.

EXB

One day the ·angels [L sons of God] came to ·show themselves [stand] before the Lord, and ·Satan [L the Satan; C means “the Accuser” or “the Adversary”; either the Devil or a member of God’s heavenly court] was with them.

GNV

¶ Now on a day when the children of God came and stood before the Lord, Satan came also among them.

GW

One day when the sons of God came to stand in front of the Lord, Satan the Accuser came along with them.

GNT

When the day came for the heavenly beings to appear before the Lord, Satan was there among them.

HCSB

One day the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them.

ICB

One day the angels came to show themselves before the Lord. Satan also came with them.

ISV

One day, divine beings presented themselves to the Lord, and Satan accompanied them.

JUB

¶ Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

KJV

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.

AKJV

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.

LEB

And it happened one day that the sons of God came to present themselves before Yahweh, and Satan also came into their midst.

TLB

One day as the angels came to present themselves before the Lord, Satan, the Accuser, came with them.

MSG

One day when the angels came to report to God, Satan, who was the Designated Accuser, came along with them. Godsingled out Satan and said, “What have you been up to?” Satan answered God, “Going here and there, checking things out on earth.”

MEV

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and the Adversary also came among them.

NOG

One day when the sons of Elohim came to stand in front of Yahweh, Satan the Accuser came along with them.

NABRE

One day, when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, the satan also came among them.

NASB

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.

NCV

One day the angels came to show themselves before the Lord, and Satan was with them.

NET

Now the day came when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord—and Satan also arrived among them.

NIRV

One day angels came to the Lord. Satan also came with them.

NIV

One day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them.

NIVUK

One day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them.

NKJV

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.

NLV

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to show themselves before the Lord. Satan came with them also.

NLT

One day the members of the heavenly court came to present themselves before the Lord, and the Accuser, Satan, came with them.

NRSV

One day the heavenly beings came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.

NRSVA

One day the heavenly beings came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.

NRSVACE

One day the heavenly beings came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.

NRSVCE

One day the heavenly beings came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.

OJB

Now there was a yom when the Bnei HaElohim came to present themselves before Hashem, and Hasatan came also among them.

RSV

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.

RSVCE

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.

VOICE

Now one day, it came time for the sons of God, God’s heavenly messengers, to present themselves to the Eternal Oneto give reports and receive instructions. The Accuser was with them there.

WEB

Now on the day when God’s sons came to present themselves before Yahweh, Satan also came among them.

WYC

And in a day, when the sons of God were come to be present before the Lord, also Satan came among them. (Now on a day, when the sons of God came and were present before the Lord, Satan also came among them.)

YLT

And the day is, that sons of God come in to station themselves by Jehovah, and there doth come also the Adversary in their midst.

[Baruch]

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz...

H5780 Uz; pronounced oots - Apparently from H5779; consultation; Uts, a son of Aram, also a Seirite, and the regions settled by them: - Uz.
H5779 Uz - A primitive root; to consult: - take advice ([counsel] together).

I imagine this is relevant. And it provides an interesting backdrop to ponder along with Job's story.

In the story of Job, God and the sons of God took counsel together; and Job and his friends.

In the story of Korah, God and Moses and Aaron vs. Korah and his rebels.

[Lou Newton]

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz...

H5780 Uz; pronounced oots - Apparently from H5779; consultation; Uts, a son of Aram, also a Seirite, and the regions settled by them: - Uz.
H5779 Uz - A primitive root; to consult: - take advice ([counsel] together).

I imagine this is relevant. And it provides an interesting backdrop to ponder along with Job's story.

In the story of Job, God and the sons of God took counsel together; and Job and his friends.

In the story of Korah, God and Moses and Aaron vs. Korah and his rebels.

Thanks for the reply Barry.

You did not comment on the possibility that this took place in Salem on the earth. What do you think. I think that may have been the case.

[Baruch]

Thanks for the reply Barry.

You did not comment on the possibility that this took place in Salem on the earth. What do you think. I think that may have been the case.

Well, I don't like to hog the show. But I will until we get more participants, Lou. : )

Upon deeper inspection it seems what you say could be the case. The Septuagint, which doesn't get quoted very much, uses this kind of language: "And the Lord said to the devil, From what place have you come? And the devil answered to the Lord, and said, Going around the earth, and walking about the place at hand under heaven."

What grabbed my attention are the following, which add a richness and clarity in overlay with the Hebrew text.

• Going around: strolling, wandering about; also implies vagabond
• the earth: the world, the land, the country
• walking about: perambulate; figuratively, to be occupied with persons
• the place at hand: here, near, at hand; figuratively, present (time)
• under heaven: air, sky, the abode of God

I gather that Satan was wandering nearby in the land, and perhaps visited God in the first heaven, the sky. Maybe even in a very high mountain which would put its peak in the sky. He did say, standing in the presence of the Lord, that he came from nearby. (If we can trust Satan's words. Wherever Satan had been, God's response indicates he had seen Job.)

[Lou Newton]

Well, I don't like to hog the show. But I will until we get more participants, Lou. : )

Upon deeper inspection it seems what you say could be the case. The Septuagint, which doesn't get quoted very much, uses this kind of language: "And the Lord said to the devil, From what place have you come? And the devil answered to the Lord, and said, Going around the earth, and walking about the place at hand under heaven."

What grabbed my attention are the following, which add a richness and clarity in overlay with the Hebrew text.

• Going around: strolling, wandering about; also implies vagabond
• the earth: the world, the land, the country
• walking about: perambulate; figuratively, to be occupied with persons
• the place at hand: here, near, at hand; figuratively, present (time)
• under heaven: air, sky, the abode of God

I gather that Satan was wandering nearby in the land, and perhaps visited God in the first heaven, the sky. Maybe even in a very high mountain which would put its peak in the sky. He did say, standing in the presence of the Lord, that he came from nearby. (If we can trust Satan's words. Wherever Satan had been, God's response indicates he had seen Job.)

Thanks for the reply Barry.

Salem was on a mountain nearby. In fact it was the closet mountain to the plain that Job lived on. It is called mount Zion. Mount Zion is thought by many to be the place where Abraham offered up Isaac to God. Also it is thought by many to be the place where Solomon built the Temple. But it is definitely in Jerusalem today and was in or near the old Salem. Salem was the highest place around and the dead sea was the lowest place on earth. Jerusalem is also one of the geographical centers of the land masses of the earth.

I do not know why God chose Salem as the place he would live, but it is The City of the Great King:

2 Samuel 5
7Nevertheless, David captured the fortress of Zion, the City of David.
8 On that day, David said, "Anyone who conquers the Jebusites will have to use the water shaft to reach those 'lame and blind' who are David's enemies. " That is why they say, "The 'blind and lame' will not enter the palace."
9 David then took up residence in the fortress and called it the City of David.

1 Kings 8
1Then King Solomon summoned into his presence at Jerusalem the elders of Israel, all the heads of the tribes and the chiefs of the Israelite families, to bring up the ark of the LORD's covenant from Zion, the City of David.

So Mount Zion was the fortress on the hill that David captured and it became the city of David.

Jerusalem is The City of the Great King:

Psalm 48 1 Great is the LORD, and most worthy of praise, in the city of our God, his holy mountain.
2 It is beautiful in its loftiness, the joy of the whole earth. Like the utmost heights of Zaphon is Mount Zion, the city of the Great King.
3 God is in her citadels; he has shown himself to be her fortress.


This psalm is NOT calling David The Great King, but it is calling God The Great King. The Great King was Melchizedek and He ruled there from the time of Adam until the people of that land become so evil that he could not stand to live there. God sent the people of Israel back to that land to conquer it for it was where he lived on the earth and was truly The City of The Great King. God called Himself, Melchizedek which means The King of Righteousness.

Matthew 5 33 "Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not break your oath, but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord.'
34 But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne;
35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King.


Jesus is not calling David The Great King, for no man is truly great, for all men are evil and all men are liars. He is referring to Melchizedek. Notice Jesus is referring to places that are God's throne, God's footstool, and God's city.

So while Jesus is the Son of David and will rule the whole earth when He returns, He also preceded David and is his Father. He was King before David and is the King after David for all eternity. Jesus is The King of Kings. There is no King higher than Him. He is The King that rules over all Kings.

Malachi 1

14"Cursed is the cheat who has an acceptable male in his flock and vows to give it, but then sacrifices a blemished animal to the Lord. For I am a great king," says the LORD Almighty, "and my name is to be feared among the nations.

Men call many things great. But only God is truly GREAT. No One, or nothing is great compared to The Lord who is The King of all Kings, The Great King.

Grace to you
Lou Newton

[Baruch]

Thanks for this excursion, Lou. I can see there is ample evidence for the possibility that the sons of God, with Satan among them, presented themselves in the earthly abode of the Lord apparently to take counsel together, near Job's abode which was in Uz (which, meaning "consult, take counsel together" is quite poetic).

I wonder if these sons of God were His divine council, to which He apportioned the nations at the incident of Babel. It's unclear when in history this scene took place. Job 34:29 refers to nationality.

Job 34:29 When he giveth quietness, who then can make trouble? and when he hideth his face, who then can behold him? whether it be done against a nation, or against a man only:

The nations were formed at Babel. Nation "goy" in the Hebrew refers to Gentile nations. In Septuagint the Greek "ethnos" often refers to non-Jewish peoples.

Whether this was an audience in heaven or on earth, one thing is clear. God was the head of it and He was on His turf.

Does this blur the question in the original post? Perhaps.

It steers my thoughts in new directions, though, like do the sons of God (and Satan among them) here need to be taught the same lessons as man? The sons of God, being higher than man, are treated differently. For example, we see elsewhere that for grievous offense they are chained up in darkness until the great day of judgement. Perhaps this is because they are an integral part of the present heavenly hierarchy which for some reason--well above our pay grade, and beyond our reasoning--requires their continuance. Hence, this curious passage Jud 1:9, "Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee." The Septuagint puts "with the devil he disputed" as "when litigating against the devil".

So Michael fought within the law, and so does God when dealing with Satan and when dealing with man who is not under grace. The question may then become: why would a man or men not be under grace?

[Lou Newton]

Thanks for this excursion, Lou. I can see there is ample evidence for the possibility that the sons of God, with Satan among them, presented themselves in the earthly abode of the Lord apparently to take counsel together, near Job's abode which was in Uz (which, meaning "consult, take counsel together" is quite poetic).

I wonder if these sons of God were His divine council, to which He apportioned the nations at the incident of Babel. It's unclear when in history this scene took place. Job 34:29 refers to nationality.

Job 34:29 When he giveth quietness, who then can make trouble? and when he hideth his face, who then can behold him? whether it be done against a nation, or against a man only:

The nations were formed at Babel. Nation "goy" in the Hebrew refers to Gentile nations. In Septuagint the Greek "ethnos" often refers to non-Jewish peoples.

Whether this was an audience in heaven or on earth, one thing is clear. God was the head of it and He was on His turf.

Does this blur the question in the original post? Perhaps.

It steers my thoughts in new directions, though, like do the sons of God (and Satan among them) here need to be taught the same lessons as man? The sons of God, being higher than man, are treated differently. For example, we see elsewhere that for grievous offense they are chained up in darkness until the great day of judgement. Perhaps this is because they are an integral part of the present heavenly hierarchy which for some reason--well above our pay grade, and beyond our reasoning--requires their continuance. Hence, this curious passage Jud 1:9, "Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee." The Septuagint puts "with the devil he disputed" as "when litigating against the devil".

So Michael fought within the law, and so does God when dealing with Satan and when dealing with man who is not under grace. The question may then become: why would a man or men not be under grace?

Thanks for the reply Barry.

The angels can not be saved like men. The scriptures tell us that they marvel at salvation. Probably like we marvel at why can't they be saved.

Men do not have a very complete revelation of God. Most know almost nothing about him. So some claim to hate God, but they instead hate the idol they have formed in their own mind about God. So if they seek God and come to know him, the idol can be destroyed and they can come to love the reality who is Jesus. So they can be saved by this revelation of the true God.

Some men claim to love God and instead love the idol they have formed in their mind. They do not love God at all, but their idea of who God is. When someone tries to reveal the truth about God, they get angry because that is not the God they love. They think themselves saved, but they may not be saved at all. For they do not love the real God. But they can confess their sin and come to know the real Jesus and be saved.

Now angels have seen God in all of His glory. They have a real knowledge of the real God. Some of them loved the real God and will be in heaven with Him for all eternity.

But some of these angels did not love who God was. They hated the real God and rebelled against Him. They do not want to be with God, for they hate Him. Nothing can be done for them. They can not be saved.

Now God will give these beings what they desire. They and many men desire to be far`away from God. BUT God has created everything that exists. There is nowhere in His creation that God is not there. So God will throw these creatures away from Him and His creation. They hate God, but they will find that someplace where God is not, is far worse.

If a man has tasted only bananas that were picked green and does not like them, he thinks he hates bananas. But if he travels to where they` are grown and eats the best bananas that were picked that very day, he may come to love them. But if he hates even the very best bananas, then he would not want to go to banana heaven where they eat nothing but bananas. Nothing could be done for him, he hates bananas.

If one reads post #84 of this thread it will help them understand why angels can not be saved:

http://forum.lounewton.com/forum/lou...h-is-sin/page2


Grace to you
Lou Newton

[Baruch]

Banana heaven! I had forgotten that allegory. It's a very good one. Thanks for reminding us.

So those with the banana rebels (i.e. Korach) would oppress their brothers and teach them to hate bananas. Therefore, God removed them as an act of mercy upon those who did not join the war on banana lovers, who could teach their brothers the infinite virtue bananas. And truly a war on banana lovers is a war against banana heaven.

[Fisherman]

I had to re-read Job over the last day or so. Presently reading Numbers. One thing I noticed in Job - Satan, while conversing with God, attempted to cleverly distort the context of the relationship between God and Job.

Job 1:8-9

Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”

“Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied."

Satan obviously omits the comment from God that Job also, "shuns evil."

Additionally, it seems to me that Satan's interaction with God in Job appears to be very similar to the one he (Satan) had with Jesus in the wilderness.

[Lou Newton]

Banana heaven! I had forgotten that allegory. It's a very good one. Thanks for reminding us.

So those with the banana rebels (i.e. Korach) would oppress their brothers and teach them to hate bananas. Therefore, God removed them as an act of mercy upon those who did not join the war on banana lovers, who could teach their brothers the infinite virtue bananas. And truly a war on banana lovers is a war against banana heaven.

Amen, thanks for the reply Barry.

It is even more devious that that and more subtle.

As you point out Korah did NOT attack God openly. After all God had preformed many miracles in Egypt, the Red Sea, and many others along the way. So Korah attacked attacked the man that God was speaking through; which is a attack on God. After all it was God speaking through the lips of Moses.

Even when the men built the Golden Calf they did not claim it was a different God.
2 Aaron answered them, “Take off the gold earrings that your wives, your sons and your daughters are wearing, and bring them to me.” 3 So all the people took off their earrings and brought them to Aaron. 4 He took what they handed him and made it into an idol cast in the shape of a calf, fashioning it with a tool. Then they said, “These are your gods, Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.”
5 When Aaron saw this, he built an altar in front of the calf and announced, “Tomorrow there will be a festival to the Lord.”

We see that they CLAIMED that they were still worshipping The Lord. But of course it was all a lie, because The Lord does not look like a Calf, but we know that men look like Him.

John 4:24 [Full Chapter]
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

God only accepts worship that comes from a spirit that is alive with His Holy Spirit. Otherwise it is coming from an unclean vessel. Because our flesh is beyond salvation and is filthy. And our soul is not saved yet, but is in the process of being saved. We have many lies that we still believe in our soul. They are NOT truth. But our spirit has been made perfect by His Holy Spirit.

Even if a person has The Holy Spirit living within them, God will not accept worship that comes from their flesh or their emotions. It must come from their spirit.

Also God will not accept worship that is BASED OF A LIE. It must be truth.

I have been in many churches where they built up their emotions and flesh to worship God. It is all for nothing. He will not hear them. Worship has to come from the spirit inspired by His Holy Spirit.

Most churches in this nation worship God with preaching, songs, etc that contain lies about Him. Just as the people of Israel claimed to worship God by bowing to a golden calf, it was based on a lie and brought the anger of The Lord, not His blessings.

It is these lies that need to be addressed. Unless the church confess and repent of these lies they will never see His blessings, but will see His judgment instead.

But almost everyone claims they are not preaching lies, but they claim that they preach nothing but The Word of God.

YET THE NATION THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BRING SALVATION TO, GOES FURTHER INTO DESTRUCTION EVERYDAY.

Here is the promise of God:

2 Chronicles 7 12 the LORD appeared to him at night and said: "I have heard your prayer and have chosen this place for myself as a temple for sacrifices.
13 "When I shut up the heavens so that there is no rain, or command locusts to devour the land or send a plague among my people,
14if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

Notice that God does not even say His people, BUT 'my people who are CALLED by my name "

Proof that the people who are called Christians are NOT doing this is the fact that our land is NOT being healed, but going to destruction.

The direction of our nation, IS PROOF, that the church is NOT in obedience to God.

NOW THE QUESTION IS WHAT ARE THE THINGS THAT THE CHURCH IS PREACHING AND DOING THAT IS IN DISOBEDIENCE TO GOD.

Lou Newton
Grace to you