How did Noah come to know God ?

[Lou Newton]

Originally Posted by Oliver
Hello brother and sisters,
This thought came to my mind. How did Noah know that the God that he was worshiping was the true God if there was no Bible, no prophets and no revelation from God? I know that God spoke with Noah but how did Noah first come to know the true God? Were there people that taught about the true God in Noah's time or did they all worship idols and false gods? Or did Noah come to know God because God revealed himself to him in the beginning?

I think that the true God was revealed to mankind ever since the beginning in the Garden of Eden when God spoke with Adam and Eve. When Adam and Eve had kids they taught about God and it passed was on from Adam and Eve.


I do not have a lot of knowledge in scripture so i was wondering what you guys thought on this topic.

Hi Oliver,

Very good question, dear friend. The Revelation of The Lord Jesus started IN THE BEGINNING. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The heavens declare the glory of God OR reveal His glory.

God then revealed Himself to Adam, when he walked and talked in the garden with him. Yes, this was passed down from father to son; but also God kept walking and talking with those that sought His face:

Gen 5
21 When Enoch had lived 65 years, he became the father of Methuselah. 22 And after he became the father of Methuselah, Enoch walked with God 300 years and had other sons and daughters. 23 Altogether, Enoch lived 365 years. 24 Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.

So Enoch walked and talked with God face to face, just as Adam did. God revealed Himself to Enoch. Now Enoch did not have The Book, but he had something much better; Enoch walked with The Author of The Book.

We read The Book, as we should, and argue over what God means by His words. Enoch had The Author to explain to him exactly what His will was.

Enoch had a son, Methuselah, that was still alive up until the very year of the flood. Lamech, who was Methuselah's son and the father of Noah did not die until 5 years before the flood. He probably helped to build the ark.

Adam was still alive until 57 years before Enoch was taken. So Enoch could have spoken with Adam and Seth. Noah was born 14 years after Seth died.

So Noah could have talked with men who had talked with Adam and Seth. But Enoch who walked and talked with God, in person, was the father of Methuselah, who was the grandfather of Noah and probably helped Noah build the ark. Methuselah could have been the human engineer (God was of course the designer) of the ark. That is why he did not die until the very year of the flood.

So Noah had a whole family of witnesses to teach him about God.

But Noah had access to someone far greater than any of these.

Gen 6
Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God.

Noah walked with God himself. Noah also had The Holy Spirit, for there is no other way for a mere man to be righteous. Noah was born with a dead spirit like all other sons of Adam. To be righteous, he had to be born again in the spirit, by The Holy Spirit coming to dwell in his spirit. There is no other way for any mere man to be righteous.

Yes, we have The Book, and we should read it every day. But we have someone much better than The Book, we also have The Author, who dwells in our hearts. We seek His face and He speaks to us. Then we read His Book and He confirms that we have heard His voice.

If this does not answer your question in full, or you have another, please ask.

Grace to you - Lou Newton

[Blane]

For I was alive without the law once...

Noah walked with God himself. Noah also had The Holy Spirit, for there is no other way for a mere man to be righteous. Noah was born with a dead spirit like all other sons of Adam. To be righteous, he had to be born again in the spirit, by The Holy Spirit coming to dwell in his spirit. There is no other way for any mere man to be righteous.

Hi Lou,

Your comment above (highlighted in blue), brings to mind a question I've had for a long time. It regards a statement Paul made in Romans 7. Namely, "When was Paul once alive, but then the commandment came, sin revived, and Paul died?"

I've always believed that everyone is born spiritually dead (as you say above). Yet how did David's three week old baby enter heaven when he died if he was born spiritually dead? The Bible says that David knew he would see his dead son again, so my question is not, "Do small children who die go to heaven?" My question is, "When was Paul alive once without the Law?" I've always assumed Paul was alive once due to the so called "age of accountability" factor, but I've never been certain. What are your thoughts?

Blane

Romans 7
Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? ² For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
³ So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
⁴ Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
⁵ For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
⁶ But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
⁷ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

⁸ But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

⁹ For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

¹⁰ And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
¹¹ For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
¹² Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

¹³ Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
¹⁴ For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
¹⁵ For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
¹⁶ If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
¹⁷ Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
¹⁸ For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
¹⁹ For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
²⁰ Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
²¹ I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
²² For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
²³ But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
²⁴ O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
²⁵ I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

[Lou Newton]

Hi Lou,

Quote Originally Posted by Lou Newton

Noah walked with God himself. Noah also had The Holy Spirit, for there is no other way for a mere man to be righteous. Noah was born with a dead spirit like all other sons of Adam. To be righteous, he had to be born again in the spirit, by The Holy Spirit coming to dwell in his spirit. There is no other way for any mere man to be righteous.

Your comment above (highlighted in blue), brings to mind a question I've had for a long time. It regards a statement Paul made in Romans 7. Namely, "When was Paul once alive, but then the commandment came, sin revived, and Paul died?"

I've always believed that everyone is born spiritually dead (as you say above). Yet how did David's three week old baby enter heaven when he died if he was born spiritually dead? The Bible says that David knew he would see his dead son again, so my question is not, "Do small children who die go to heaven?" My question is, "When was Paul alive once without the Law?" I've always assumed Paul was alive once due to the so called "age of accountability" factor, but I've never been certain. What are your thoughts?

Blane

Romans 7

An Illustration From Marriage
1 Do you not know, brothers--for I am speaking to men who know the law--that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? 2 For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. 3 So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man. 4 So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
Struggling With Sin
7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet." 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful. 14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. 21 So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Hi Blane,

That is an outstanding question Blane. And asked in a very respectful manner.

My first thought is that I misspoke in the post you quoted me.

Certainly we do die and need to be born again in the spirit. The question is, when do we die. The orthodox view was that we were born dead in the spirit, but now I am questioning that view, and for more than one reason.

I see what may be the answer, but prefer to sleep on it and answer after The Lord has an opportunity to speak to me in my rest.

If I would forget to answer tomorrow, please remind me.

Lou

[Lou Newton]

I would ask anyone to post any passage of scripture that you think might speak of this issue that Blane brings up.

That is when does death (spiritual ) begin. Are we born dead in the spirit, or are we born alive in the spirit and then die as soon as we learn any law and disobey.

We have the example of Adam, who was certainly born alive in the spirit when God breathed the breath of life into him. But then Adam died in the spirit when he trusted Eve more than he trusted God.

We also know that John the Baptist was born alive in the spirit because it tells us this is true in the gospels.

I have also my own experience to draw on. It seems that when I was very small that I was alive to God and had communion with Him. But I was soon caught up in the world and sin and died in the spirit.

Post any passage that you think even might be speaking of this. Better to post one that does not have to do with this, than to not post one that may have the answer to this question.

Grace to you
Lou Newton

[Lou Newton]

We also have this truth to consider:

John 3

3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again." 4 "How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!" 5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." 9 "How can this be?" Nicodemus asked. 10 "You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things? 11 I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man. 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

This would seem to indicate that everyone is born dead in the spirit.

Lou

[Baruch]

We also have this truth to consider:

John 3

3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again." 4 "How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!" 5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." 9 "How can this be?" Nicodemus asked. 10 "You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things? 11 I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man. 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

This would seem to indicate that everyone is born dead in the spirit.

Lou

Hi, Lou,

Here are some observations on what you posted.

This seems to me more like a concept than a recipe.

In the Greek Jesus says "any", or anyone, any man, anything. Nocidemus applies it to man. Jesus then rephrases, using again the word for "any".

Jesus does not here explain when "rebirth" occurs, but He is clearly speaking of that which is born of the Spirit. If we are alive and then dead, is it a rebirth to be alive again? How many times could that which is born of the Spirit die? I consider this a conceptual possibility, unless other scriptures disprove the conjecture. At age 21 I considered myself alive in Christ: baptized, committed, walking after the Spirit; then I soon returned to the world and (I interpret) my spirit died; now here I am again decades later, and I tell you I am alive.

Blane,

Excellent question. I really appreciate your gift for this.

[Steve Hollander]

We also have this truth to consider:



This would seem to indicate that everyone is born dead in the spirit.

Lou

Hi Lou,
I'm sorry brother but I have to disagree.
Are babies born evil? Are any infants in hell?
I have a problem believing that God would send someone to hell before they can make a decision to accept or reject the Son.
So then the part where Paul states that he was alive until the law made him dead is indicative of us being alive in our ignorance until we choose to sin conciously.
Like a retarded person may exhibit sinful behavior yet is unaware of their actions and incapable of the rebellion at the very heart of sin. So do we hold them accountable? Being that we are much less forgiving than God. Would God assign guilt to the guiltless?
What about all the millions murdered before they were able to accept Christ?
Through out the ages all the wickedness perpetrated on innocent people who afterwards were sent to hell by the very God who blesses us and we love? I have trouble swallowing that dear brother. Maybe some but not all.
Most of the Jews if not all of them in the Holocaust did not know Christ. Children and some very good and loving people that never had a chance.
I am sure some very young children are evil and can make a decision to sin conciously.
Thankfully God is the final judge and not one of us.
I think we are all predestined. Either to be His or not to. We were either written in His book from before the foundations of the earth or not.
Are we not made for His pleasure?
What do you think? ..... Steve

[Baruch]

This scripture comes to mind.

It is a picture of the ancestry of Rome. But it can also be a macro image of a man.

I will try to keep commentary to a minimum so as not to excessively mark up the scripture with interpretation.

Romans 1:17-27 (KJV)
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

Rom 1:17
The just shall live by faith.

Children seem to live by faith. We call it innocence, naivete, inexperience. Children are uncritical of those they trust. Perhaps they don't know God with the understanding yet, but with the spirit.

Rom 1:18-19
the wrath of God is revealed from heaven
against ungodliness and unrighteoushness
of men who hold the truth in unrighteousness
because the knowledge of God is made manifest
because God has shown it to them

"Manifest" in the Greek: shining, apparent, publicly, externally.

Questions for consideration... Is that child's default faith in parents, for example, who gave him birth counted as righteousness? Assuming a child is born spiritually dead, and has not been born again in the Spirit, is his natural faith counted as righteousness?

If so, this is a turning point. One sees the proof of God, and proclaims, "You are my God, my Father"; or makes his own version of truth in unrighteousness.

Rom 1:19-22
the invisible things of Him are clearly seen, and understood
so there is no excuse
they knew God
glorified Him not
neither were thankful
but became vain in their imaginations
and their foolish heart was darkened
professing their own wisdom, they become fools

The descent into darkness and blindness after turning away.

Rom 1:23
they made idols after corruptible things
and loved them in place of the incorruptible God

The progression, the invention of evil, heaping to oneself a multitude of idols.

Rom 1:24-27
God gave them up to uncleanness through the lust of their own hearts
to dishonour their own bodies
they changed the truth of God into a lie [Gr: "exchanged" the truth of God to give oneself wholly to a lie]
worshiping and serving the creature more than the eternally blessed Creator
receiving in themselves the wages of error

God gave them up. There is no remedy. In exchanging the truth for a lie, they cannot consider the alternative: even God's verifiable truth. And they have chosen death, even though they can see the judgment of God upon the wicked, historically and before their eyes (Rom 1:18; Rom 1:28-32).

[Lou Newton]

This scripture comes to mind.

It is a picture of the ancestry of Rome. But it can also be a macro image of a man.

I will try to keep commentary to a minimum so as not to excessively mark up the scripture with interpretation.



Rom 1:17
The just shall live by faith.

Children seem to live by faith. We call it innocence, naivete, inexperience. Children are uncritical of those they trust. Perhaps they don't know God with the understanding yet, but with the spirit.

Rom 1:18-19
the wrath of God is revealed from heaven
against ungodliness and unrighteoushness
of men who hold the truth in unrighteousness
because the knowledge of God is made manifest
because God has shown it to them

"Manifest" in the Greek: shining, apparent, publicly, externally.

Questions for consideration... Is that child's default faith in parents, for example, who gave him birth counted as righteousness? Assuming a child is born spiritually dead, and has not been born again in the Spirit, is his natural faith counted as righteousness?

If so, this is a turning point. One sees the proof of God, and proclaims, "You are my God, my Father"; or makes his own version of truth in unrighteousness.

Rom 1:19-22
the invisible things of Him are clearly seen, and understood
so there is no excuse
they knew God
glorified Him not
neither were thankful
but became vain in their imaginations
and their foolish heart was darkened
professing their own wisdom, they become fools

The descent into darkness and blindness after turning away.

Rom 1:23
they made idols after corruptible things
and loved them in place of the incorruptible God

The progression, the invention of evil, heaping to oneself a multitude of idols.

Rom 1:24-27
God gave them up to uncleanness through the lust of their own hearts
to dishonour their own bodies
they changed the truth of God into a lie [Gr: "exchanged" the truth of God to give oneself wholly to a lie]
worshiping and serving the creature more than the eternally blessed Creator
receiving in themselves the wages of error

God gave them up. There is no remedy. In exchanging the truth for a lie, they cannot consider the alternative: even God's verifiable truth. And they have chosen death, even though they can see the judgment of God upon the wicked, historically and before their eyes (Rom 1:18; Rom 1:28-32).

Thanks for the reply Barry. Good comments, thanks.

Of course I know you are well aware, but some may need to be reminded, that we are not saved by our faith, but by putting our faith in The Lord Jesus.

Muslims have faith, but they have put their faith in the wrong place.

Lou

[Lou Newton]

Hi, Lou,

Here are some observations on what you posted.

This seems to me more like a concept than a recipe.

In the Greek Jesus says "any", or anyone, any man, anything. Nocidemus applies it to man. Jesus then rephrases, using again the word for "any".

Jesus does not here explain when "rebirth" occurs, but He is clearly speaking of that which is born of the Spirit. If we are alive and then dead, is it a rebirth to be alive again? How many times could that which is born of the Spirit die? I consider this a conceptual possibility, unless other scriptures disprove the conjecture. At age 21 I considered myself alive in Christ: baptized, committed, walking after the Spirit; then I soon returned to the world and (I interpret) my spirit died; now here I am again decades later, and I tell you I am alive.

Blane,

Excellent question. I really appreciate your gift for this.

Thanks Barry. Very good comments.

Lou

[Lou Newton]

Hi Lou,
I'm sorry brother but I have to disagree.
Are babies born evil? Are any infants in hell?
I have a problem believing that God would send someone to hell before they can make a decision to accept or reject the Son.
So then the part where Paul states that he was alive until the law made him dead is indicative of us being alive in our ignorance until we choose to sin conciously.
Like a retarded person may exhibit sinful behavior yet is unaware of their actions and incapable of the rebellion at the very heart of sin. So do we hold them accountable? Being that we are much less forgiving than God. Would God assign guilt to the guiltless?
What about all the millions murdered before they were able to accept Christ?
Through out the ages all the wickedness perpetrated on innocent people who afterwards were sent to hell by the very God who blesses us and we love? I have trouble swallowing that dear brother. Maybe some but not all.
Most of the Jews if not all of them in the Holocaust did not know Christ. Children and some very good and loving people that never had a chance.
I am sure some very young children are evil and can make a decision to sin conciously.
Thankfully God is the final judge and not one of us.
I think we are all predestined. Either to be His or not to. We were either written in His book from before the foundations of the earth or not.
Are we not made for His pleasure?
What do you think? ..... Steve

Thanks for the reply Steve. Good comments and questions.

I agree with much of what you say, but here are some questions to ponder.

While God has more mercy that any mere man, He also has more justice than any mere man.

Many men claim that God would not send anyone to hell for any reason. This is not mercy but it is simply men trying to justify that they should also not be lost forever.

What mere man is so just that he would die for our sins rather than just forgive everyone without the sin being paid for.

The Lord Jesus is so just that he had to shed His own blood on the cross for our sins for us to be forgiven.

But I am not saying that babies are condemned either.

Job 37:23
•Living Bible
We cannot imagine the power of the Almighty, and yet he is so just and merciful that he does not destroy us.

Micah 6:8
•Living Bible
No, he has told you what he wants, and this is all it is: to be fair, just, merciful, and to walk humbly with your God.

Lou

[Baruch]

I imagine you have considered these, Lou.

Mat 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

Mar 10:14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

Luk 18:16 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

[Baruch]

Hi Lou,
I'm sorry brother but I have to disagree.
Are babies born evil? Are any infants in hell?
I have a problem believing that God would send someone to hell before they can make a decision to accept or reject the Son.
So then the part where Paul states that he was alive until the law made him dead is indicative of us being alive in our ignorance until we choose to sin conciously.
Like a retarded person may exhibit sinful behavior yet is unaware of their actions and incapable of the rebellion at the very heart of sin. So do we hold them accountable? Being that we are much less forgiving than God. Would God assign guilt to the guiltless?
What about all the millions murdered before they were able to accept Christ?
Through out the ages all the wickedness perpetrated on innocent people who afterwards were sent to hell by the very God who blesses us and we love? I have trouble swallowing that dear brother. Maybe some but not all.
Most of the Jews if not all of them in the Holocaust did not know Christ. Children and some very good and loving people that never had a chance.
I am sure some very young children are evil and can make a decision to sin conciously.
Thankfully God is the final judge and not one of us.
I think we are all predestined. Either to be His or not to. We were either written in His book from before the foundations of the earth or not.
Are we not made for His pleasure?
What do you think? ..... Steve

Steve,

You speak to my heart. I have heard a believable testimony that little children are in heaven. I personally believe that God's perfect righteousness is accommodated somehow because His thoughts and ways are far above ours. He is great and awesome, His ways are equal and ours are unequal (Eze 18). Our reason is limited, and we make sense of it as best we can. Though it's tempting, I know that man's testimony and commentary are experiential. Scripture would be more valuable than gold here, and would confirm any truth found in man's testimony. I hope the Lord has something to show us.

If we cannot understand something now, we will when He shows it to us in truth and light. I expect on that day there will be no cognitive dissonance, but peace.

[Blane]

I would ask anyone to post any passage of scripture that you think might speak of this issue that Blane brings up.

That is when does death (spiritual ) begin. Are we born dead in the spirit, or are we born alive in the spirit and then die as soon as we learn any law and disobey.

We have the example of Adam, who was certainly born alive in the spirit when God breathed the breath of life into him. But then Adam died in the spirit when he trusted Eve more than he trusted God.

We also know that John the Baptist was born alive in the spirit because it tells us this is true in the gospels.

I have also my own experience to draw on. It seems that when I was very small that I was alive to God and had communion with Him. But I was soon caught up in the world and sin and died in the spirit.

Post any passage that you think even might be speaking of this. Better to post one that does not have to do with this, than to not post one that may have the answer to this question.

Grace to you
Lou Newton

Lou, maybe John 9:35-41 is relevant to this conversation...?

Blane

Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?

³⁶ He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?

³⁷ And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.
³⁸ And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.
³⁹ And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
⁴⁰ And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
⁴¹ Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

[Lou Newton]

I imagine you have considered these, Lou.

Mat 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

Mar 10:14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

Luk 18:16 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

Good scriptures to add Barry.

Lou