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What is an Apostle ?

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  • #46

    Lou Posted #10

    The disciples chose, by lot, another to be an apostle. But nothing further was heard about him. But it seems The Lord soon revealed who He chose, and that was Stephen. Stephen preached to Paul and Paul was chosen to be an apostle.

    I question that the apostles were being guided by The Holy Spirit when they drew lots to see who the next apostle was. I wonder if the drawing of lots was an OT practice for men who did not have the Holy Spirit. . . . I do not claim that the Holy Spirit was not leading the apostles, but question if He was.

    Lou Posted #12

    There is no record of God telling the disciples to draw lots. The disciples became unconcerned about the poor and said they should concentrate on reading Scripture and praying. But God used Stephen at that time instead of them, or the man they chose. That would seem to be strong evidence that God chose Stephen instead of the man they chose.

    I question if Matthias was chosen by God to be an apostle.

    The "church" of the day ( that Israel recognized as the church) when Jesus walked the earth, was led by the Pharisees and they had Jesus crucified.

    Lou Posted #14

    The casting of lots is no guarantee that the Lord is leading those who cast them to do it. Notice when Joshua cast lots, the scripture says that he did so in the presence of the Lord. While the scriptures say the disciples cast these lots. There is no mention of the Lord being present, or Him telling them to do so.

    In fact they did not even ask The Lord how they should choose this man. But it says they decided to cast lots and then asked the Lord to approve their decision. The prayer should have been before they acted, and then waited for His answer. No move of God starts with any mere man. The Lord does not follow, but we are to follow Him.

    Certainly the disciples spoke many false things in the gospels. They argued who was the greatest. Peter denied he even knew Jesus, that was a lie.
    What about when Peter refused to sit with gentiles ? Was he right ? Paul corrected him in front of everyone.

    Where does God say that Matthias was an apostle ? Where are the miracles that God did through him as a sign of his being an apostle ?

    I am not saying that Matthias was not an apostle. But I do question it.

    In fact he is not even mentioned again. But certainly much is told about Stephen and Paul.

    Lou posted # 15

    Peter is speaking in the passage you quote above. Peter said many things that were not true.

    But I have quoted God Himself:

    Lou posted in #38

    Certainly the apostles were not God's voice on this earth. God spoke through them at times. But other times they spoke foolish things like men tend to do.

    Look at the things Peter said on the mountain. Christianity would have become a shelter building sect. Later he spoke many other things that were not from God. Peter was certainly wrong when he would not sit at the same table as Gentile Christians. Which apostle spoke for God, Peter or Paul ? Following any man, no matter what his calling is a way to destruction.

    Reply:
    Brother Lou,
    I know you love the Lord Jesus and desire to be among His most faithful disciples.
    Please reread these portions above pulled from your posts.

    In these examples above you argue like an unbeliever in that you move the narrative out of the context of the chronological order to support your view. If the narrative is left in the order of events, it does not support your point of view at all. Such convoluted uses of scripture appear to be a desperate search for proofs just as the unbeliever uses the convoluted meaning of scripture to establish error within the Bible.

    Just as with the unbeliever, such blatant misinterpretations appear to be just desperate grasping. If another used your interpretations to destroy the credibility of scripture you would be the first to correct their error. With such blatant misuse one could claim the inspiration of scripture teaches that it is appropriate to kill the husband of the wife one impregnated or that any of the many conclusions by King Solomon in Ecclesiastes are guides to the meaning of life.

    I suspect there is more going on with you in these replies than just being a faithful disciple. If so, is there something your online friends might do?
    However, before we use scripture to malign the apostles it is appropriate to read how they came to have the authority to speak for Jesus from these passages from John.

    May His Spirit guide you well.

    John 14 ISV

    17 He is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor recognizes him. But you recognize him, because he lives with you and will be in you.

    25 “I have told you this while I am still with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and remind you of everything that I have told you.

    John 15 ISV
    26 “When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father— the Spirit of Truth, who comes from the Father—he will testify on my behalf. 27 You will testify also, because you have been with me from the beginning.
    John 16 ISV
    12 “I still have a lot to say to you, but you cannot bear it now. 13 Yet when the Spirit of Truth comes, he’ll guide you into all truth. He won’t speak on his own accord, but he’ll speak whatever he hears and will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, because he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine. That is why I said, ‘He will take what is mine and declare it to you.’
    John 17 ISV
    7 Now they realize that everything you gave me comes from you, 8 because the words that you gave me I passed on to them. They have received them and know for sure that I came from you. They have believed that you sent me.
    17 “Sanctify them by the truth. Your word is truth. 18 Just as you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. 19 It is for their sakes that I sanctify myself, so that they, too, may be sanctified by the truth. 20 I ask not only on behalf of these men, but also on behalf of those who will believe in me through their message, 21 so that they may all be one. Just as you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be one in us, so that the world may believe that you sent me.
    23 I am in them, and you are in me. May they be completely one, so that the world may know that you sent me and that you have loved them as you loved me.

    John 20 ISV
    21 Jesus told them again, “Peace be with you. Just as the Father has sent me, so I am sending you.” 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them and told them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive people’s sins, they are forgiven. If you retain people’s sins, they are retained.”
    Last edited by glen smith; January 30th, 2018, 02:46 AM.

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    • #47
      Jesus chose 12 men to walk with Him in the flesh. They walked with Jesus on earth while He was Man of flesh.

      Paul was the first apostle chosen to walk with Jesus in the Spirit and not the flesh.

      Paul was called to let The Holy Spirit teach others though him.

      Paul was called to let the Holy Spirit pastor others through him.

      Paul certainly let the Holy Spirit gather others to The Lord through him as he was called to the ministry of an evangelist.

      Paul was called the the ministry of a prophet who let the Holy Spirit speak through him.

      Paul was called to be an apostle.

      It is good for everyone to know what an apostle is so they can recognize the many false apostles in our midst.

      God has not withdrawn apostles from the church any more than he has withdrawn those he called to let God Pastor people through them.

      God never changes. God has given us the gifts of His Holy Spirit and also given us men that are called to let His Holy Spirit teach, pastor, gather, and speak through them.

      It is against the direct commands of Christ to look to any mere man as a teach, pastor, prophet or apostle. Jesus makes this very clear with this command:

      Matthew 23

      8 “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. 11 The greatest among you will be your servant. 12 For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.

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