Using the back of a napkin to show that Jesus is God

[Jules]

Ran across this while searching for something completely different and thought it worth sharing here:

http://www.thegospelcoalition.org/bl...-jesus-is-god/

(sorry it's too long to post the article here)

[Lou Newton]

Ran across this while searching for something completely different and thought it worth sharing here:

http://www.thegospelcoalition.org/bl...-jesus-is-god/

(sorry it's too long to post the article here)

Hi Julie,

The Lord has converted many JW that have come by my house to recruit me into the JW. I have lost count of how many.

But I do NOT try to convince them of the Trinity, which is never mentioned in the scriptures. Why would we teach so hard about something that God did not see fit to mention even once.

Plus, the JW have been ingrained to hate even the word Trinity.

So I always agree with them that the Bible does not teach the Trinity. This gets their attention every single time.

But I follow that up immediately with the statement, The Bible does teach that Jesus is God Almighty though.

Now they are genuinely confused as to how I can believe both of these things. They really want to know how I can do so. It changes the whole conversation from their canned speech, to one of really wanting to know something.

Let's take a quote from the article by the author:

Agreed, Jesus is not the Father. Jesus can talk to the Father because each is a separate person, but as Creator, Jesus shares the same divine essence as the Father. Remember our definition: there is only one God and He subsists as three distinct persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Obviously, then we’d expect to find evidence of personal interaction among each of them.

Well my questions to him are these:

Does a father come before a son ?

Is the father greater than the son ?

Is not the father, the source of the son ?

If the father is the source, then the father existed before the son

If Jesus is NOT the Father, then Jesus lacks something and is not completely God Almighty.

Further if The Father is NOT the Son, then even The Father lacks something and is not completely God Almighty.

OR, if The Father and the Son are different and separate persons, then any one lacks part of another.

This man is simply stating that God is three separate persons and that no one person is totally God Almighty.

For he is saying God is only complete in all three.

BUT THAT IS ANTICHRIST and against the Holy Scriptures.

For Jesus is totally God Almighty and lacks nothing of God. Jesus lacks not one thing that God possesses.

Also the Father lacks nothing and is totally God and lacks nothing that God possesses.

Also how can a person be three and also ONE in every way.

What about this scripture:

Isaiah 9
6 For unto us a child is born, and unto us a Son is given: and the government is upon his shoulder, and he shall call his name, Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The prince of peace.

Just how does this man propose that Jesus is not The Father and this passage still be true.

Notice that this passage is God Almighty speaking and in fact the HE in, " he shall call his name", is in fact God Almighty, or The Father.

So in this passage The Father calls the child, Jesus, The Everlasting Father.

The reason the church has lost power on this earth to such an extent is the fact that it is filled with error and idolatry.

Not only is the Trinity not mentioned once in the Holy Scriptures, but not one early church father ever mentioned the word once.

It was a man who called himself, The Pope, who called the doctrine, the Trinity doctrine. BUT the author of that doctrine, Athanasian, wrote this in his doctrine many times over :

Yes there is the Father, the Son, and The Holy Spirit, but he is NOT THREE BUT ONE.

The Father is God and is totally God and lacks not one attribute of God.

The Son is God and totally God and lacks not one attribute of God.

The Holy Spirit is God and is totally God and lacks not one attribute of God.

Is being The Father a attribute of God ?

Is being The Son a attribute of God ?

Is being The Holy Spirit an attribute of God ?

Then if so, The Father is also The Son and the Holy Spirit.

The Son is also The Father and the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is also The Father and the Son.

If these things were not all true, then The Father would not be completely God, He would lack the Son.

Of the Son would lack The Father and not have all of God in Himself.

Whose Holy Spirit is The Holy Spirit. How many Holy Spirits are there.

The scriptures plainly say it is The Holy Spirit of God The Father, and ALSO The Holy Spirit of The Son, Jesus Christ.

This man has swallowed a poison pill that he thinks is totally converse to what The JW teach.

When in fact, it is just a more subtle poison pill.

We can not concentrate on part of the scriptures and say it is true, IF our interpretation makes some other part of scripture untrue.

ALL OF WHAT GOD SPEAKS IN SCRIPTURE IS TRUE

including this: Who is speaking in Isaiah 43, is it not Jehovah, or God Almighty, or The Father. The LORD here is Jehovah, BUT He also states that he created them. But Jesus created everything that exists.

WHO IS THE REDEEMER, IF NOT JESUS - BUT JEHOVAH SAYS HERE HE IS THE REDEEMER

NOTICE THAT JEHOVAH SAYS THE REDEEMER, MEANING THE ONE AND ONLY REDEEMER

Notice that is says ONLY Savior, ONLY means having to do with ONE.

Some may start to wonder, how is this all true ?

Isaiah 43
Israel's Only Savior

1 But now, this is what the LORD says-- he who created you, O Jacob, he who formed you, O Israel: "Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have summoned you by name; you are mine.
2 When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; and when you pass through the rivers, they will not sweep over you. When you walk through the fire, you will not be burned; the flames will not set you ablaze.
3 For I am the LORD, your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior; I give Egypt for your ransom, Cush and Seba in your stead.
4 Since you are precious and honored in my sight, and because I love you, I will give men in exchange for you, and people in exchange for your life.
5 Do not be afraid, for I am with you; I will bring your children from the east and gather you from the west.
6 I will say to the north, 'Give them up!' and to the south, 'Do not hold them back.' Bring my sons from afar and my daughters from the ends of the earth--
7 everyone who is called by my name,whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made."
8 Lead out those who have eyes but are blind, who have ears but are deaf.
9 All the nations gather together and the peoples assemble. Which of them foretold this and proclaimed to us the former things? Let them bring in their witnesses to prove they were right, so that others may hear and say, "It is true."
10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.
12I have revealed and saved and proclaimed-- I, and not some foreign god among you. You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "that I am God.
13 Yes, and from ancient days I am he. No one can deliver out of my hand. When I act, who can reverse it?"


Is it not proper to call the One who created us FATHER.

Is it not proper to call the ONE who died for us, God's SON.

God can not be divided into separate persons.

So how does Jesus then pray to The Father ?

Jesus was not only God Almighty ( which he had to be, for only God is righteous and able to pay for sin) but Jesus was also a man born of a woman.

God humbled Himself to become a man and then showed other men how to live. Men are to be obedient to God, and so as a man, Jesus was obedient to God.

As a man, Jesus prayed to God, was obedient to God, and shed His blood for us. It was the man Jesus who died.

It was The Lord Jesus, who is God Almighty who raised Himself from the dead.

Some may than say that I am saying that Jesus was two persons, God and Man. That is silly. Jesus was one person and that person was BOTH God and man.

So many mere men think they have to "improve" The words from God.

God did NOT say, The Lord your God is three in one.

Some men are so foolish to imply that God could not create the word "trinity", so they had to come up with it. The Pope came up with this word.

GOD SAID, THE LORD YOUR GOD IS ONE.

That statement is totally true and needs nothing added to it.

Jesus told us that this was the MOST IMPORTANT COMMAND OF GOD

I can see why He said that.

Edit: There is One and Only One God. He is The Father, The Son , and the Holy Spirit.

He is all things to all men.

I am only a mere man. But I am a son, a father, and I have a spirit. But I am NOT three persons, but ONE.

We are all created in God's image.

Grace to you

Lou Newton

[Lou Newton]

John 14

Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."
9 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
10 Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.

Jesus is THE TRUTH. He can not lie or stretch the truth. Anyone who has seen Jesus has seen The Father.

If Jesus was not also The Father, this would not be completely true.

Lou Newton

[Lou Newton]

The author of the article wrote this:

Agreed, Jesus is not the Father. Jesus can talk to the Father because each is a separate person, but as Creator, Jesus shares the same divine essence as the Father. Remember our definition: there is only one God and He subsists as three distinct persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Obviously, then we’d expect to find evidence of personal interaction among each of them.

I would ask him these questions:

Is there not but ONE God ?

Is the Father God ?

If then Jesus is God, He has to also be The Father.

God is NOT but a mere man. God is able to be everywhere at once. He is able to be The Father and The Son.

IF THE ABOVE IS NOT TRUE, THEN HOW IS IT TRUE THAT JESUS IS BOTH GOD AND MAN ?

Lou Newton

[Baruch]

You offer lots of good evidence for the correction, Lou.

Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: 5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

I marvel at this often. He is One. We can love Him with our all because He is One. If He were not One, our love would be divvied up among a pantheon as the pagans do. But also we can know Him better by His revelation of the familial relationship. We humans can understand the father and son relationship because we live it in the natural. God is not the inscrutable big spirit guy in the sky: He is a father, and He is a son. THE Father and THE Son.

And,

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

He gives us these valuable ways that we can come to know Him as a person: as Father, as Son, as Spirit. Yet He is One.

One of the most beautiful things to me is that because He is the Father, and has a Son... we can trust in the adoption. So we can indeed know Him as Father, and also Brother. A pastor I listened to recently explained that in Jesus' day in Rome, adoption was a potent legal status. An adopted son gains all the rights of flesh and blood progeny. Just wow.

He shows us, too, that we can also know Him as Husband. And Shepherd. And King. And Priest. He's given us a very rich vocabulary with which to get to know Him, the one and only, beside Whom is no Savior.

[Lou Newton]

You offer lots of good evidence for the correction, Lou.

Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: 5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

I marvel at this often. He is One. We can love Him with our all because He is One. If He were not One, our love would be divvied up among a pantheon as the pagans do. But also we can know Him better by His revelation of the familial relationship. We humans can understand the father and son relationship because we live it in the natural. God is not the inscrutable big spirit guy in the sky: He is a father, and He is a son. THE Father and THE Son.

And,

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

He gives us these valuable ways that we can come to know Him as a person: as Father, as Son, as Spirit. Yet He is One.

One of the most beautiful things to me is that because He is the Father, and has a Son... we can trust in the adoption. So we can indeed know Him as Father, and also Brother. A pastor I listened to recently explained that in Jesus' day in Rome, adoption was a potent legal status. An adopted son gains all the rights of flesh and blood progeny. Just wow.

He shows us, too, that we can also know Him as Husband. And Shepherd. And King. And Priest. He's given us a very rich vocabulary with which to get to know Him, the one and only, beside Whom is no Savior.

Thank you so much for your reply Barry.

It is much appreciated and much needed.

Lou

[Lou Newton]

Why does Satan work so hard to deceive people that Jesus is not the Father ?

How would you define God ? Would you say He is the SUPREME being ?

Most would agree with this.

But many go on to claim that while Jesus is God, He is below the Father.

Is that not just plain double talk.

How can Jesus be God, and yet not The Supreme Being.

Satan is much more powerful than us. But that does not make him God. For God is much more powerful than he is.

So if one puts Jesus below God The Father in any way, have they not made him a person less than God and therefore not God at all.

NOW WE MUST NOT FORGET THAT JESUS WAS ALSO A MAN, AND AS TO HIS MANHOOD HE WAS LESS THAN GOD. For as to His manhood he was a little below the angels also.

But Jesus was also fully God, and as to His Godhood He was fully God in EVERY way.

If Jesus was not God in every way, then he was not God at all. Some seem to put Jesus above Satan, but below God The Father, which would mean that they are believing that Jesus is not God at all. For God is SUPREME.

Number One. head person.

So again why does Satan work so hard to get people to believe that Jesus is not fully equal to God The Father?

It is so Satan can then whisper in your ear that Jesus may forgive you, but God The Father does not forgive you.

Satan wants to portray The Father as more strict and severe, and Jesus as the one with mercy and grace.

NO, NO a thousand times NO.

It was The One and Only God Almighty who came down from heaven and was born of a woman to shed His blood for you.

Lou Newton

[Lou Newton]

Genesis 1
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Who is this that created the heavens and the earth.

The Hebrew text says it is Elohim, or God.

The JW translate this as Jehovah.

But when we turn to John 1 we see this:

The Word Became Flesh

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So is Jesus The Creator, which would make Him Elohim in Genesis 1

Colossians 1
The Supremacy of Christ

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Or how about this miracle of Jesus:

John 9
Jesus Heals a Man Born Blind

1 As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth.
2 His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"
3 "Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life.
4 As long as it is day, we must do the work of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work.
5 While I am in the world, I am the light of the world."
6 Having said this, he spit on the ground, made some mud with the saliva, and put it on the man's eyes.
7 "Go," he told him, "wash in the Pool of Siloam" (this word means Sent). So the man went and washed, and came home seeing.
8 His neighbors and those who had formerly seen him begging asked, "Isn't this the same man who used to sit and beg?"
9 Some claimed that he was. Others said, "No, he only looks like him." But he himself insisted, "I am the man."
10 "How then were your eyes opened?" they demanded.
11 He replied, "The man they call Jesus made some mud and put it on my eyes. He told me to go to Siloam and wash. So I went and washed, and then I could see."
12 "Where is this man?" they asked him. "I don't know," he said.
The Pharisees Investigate the Healing

13 They brought to the Pharisees the man who had been blind.
14 Now the day on which Jesus had made the mud and opened the man's eyes was a Sabbath.
15Therefore the Pharisees also asked him how he had received his sight. "He put mud on my eyes," the man replied, "and I washed, and now I see."
16 Some of the Pharisees said, "This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath." But others asked, "How can a sinner do such miraculous signs?" So they were divided.
17 Finally they turned again to the blind man, "What have you to say about him? It was your eyes he opened." The man replied, "He is a prophet."
18 The Jews still did not believe that he had been blind and had received his sight until they sent for the man's parents.
19 "Is this your son?" they asked. "Is this the one you say was born blind? How is it that now he can see?"
20 "We know he is our son," the parents answered, "and we know he was born blind.
21 But how he can see now, or who opened his eyes, we don't know. Ask him. He is of age; he will speak for himself."
22 His parents said this because they were afraid of the Jews, for already the Jews had decided that anyone who acknowledged that Jesus was the Christ would be put out of the synagogue.
23 That was why his parents said, "He is of age; ask him."
24 A second time they summoned the man who had been blind. "Give glory to God, " they said. "We know this man is a sinner."
25 He replied, "Whether he is a sinner or not, I don't know. One thing I do know. I was blind but now I see!"
26 Then they asked him, "What did he do to you? How did he open your eyes?"
27 He answered, "I have told you already and you did not listen. Why do you want to hear it again? Do you want to become his disciples, too?"
28 Then they hurled insults at him and said, "You are this fellow's disciple! We are disciples of Moses!
29 We know that God spoke to Moses, but as for this fellow, we don't even know where he comes from."
30 The man answered, "Now that is remarkable! You don't know where he comes from, yet he opened my eyes.
31We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly man who does his will.
32 Nobody has ever heard of opening the eyes of a man born blind.
33 If this man were not from God, he could do nothing."
34 To this they replied, "You were steeped in sin at birth; how dare you lecture us!" And they threw him out.
Spiritual Blindness

35 Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and when he found him, he said,"Do you believe in the Son of Man?"
36 "Who is he, sir?" the man asked. "Tell me so that I may believe in him."
37 Jesus said, "You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you."
38 Then the man said, "Lord, I believe," and he worshiped him.
39 Jesus said, "For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind."
40 Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and asked, "What? Are we blind too?"
41 Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.

Why did Jesus spit on the ground and make a mud ball to put in the man's eye's.

Was Jesus not revealing to all who could see, that he was the Creator in Genesis 1 that made man out of dirt.

Jesus was showing them that if he could make a eyeball out of dirt, He could also make a man out of dirt.

Jesus is The One and Only God Almighty who created the heavens and the earth.

Lou Newton

[Lou Newton]

Please read the following scripture with prayer and ask The Lord to reveal the true meaning to you:

Philippians 2

Imitating Christ's Humility

1 If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion,
2then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose.
3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves.
4 Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing,taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death-- even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

The first part of the passage tells us the attitude that Jesus had. He did not demand to be exalted, but was very humble, even though he was in fact God.

God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name

But does God really mean what he says here ? Well of course, God never lies, but is always totally truthful. Does God really mean that the Name of Jesus is exalted above EVERY NAME. If so that would include every name of God.

Does that mean that Christ is above God ? That is silly. Can I be above myself. There is only one God, and Jesus is God. So God is not above God. No one is above God.

What God is saying here is that Jesus revealed to man the nature of God. And the nature that God revealed through Jesus, is the highest nature of God.

God is all powerful, but his power is NOT the nature that God considers His highest nature.

God reveals here that he considers His humility and sacrifice His highest nature.

God tells us here that the name of Jesus is the highest Name of God.

Jesus created everything that exists. He created man, so He is our Father, is he not.

Yes, there is The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit, BUT He is NOT three, but He is ONE.

BTW, the above statement is word for word from the translations of what the man who called himself, Pope, calls the Trinity doctrine written by Athanasian. BUT, and mere man who asks people to address him as The Holy Father is certainly walking in great error.

God reveals to us that he calls Himself many Names. Every name reveals a nature of God.

God calls Himself, Melchizedek. That does not mean that we have another person who is God. But that God is revealing to us that he is The King of Righteousness.

God calls Himself The Creator, The Father, The Savior, Emanuel, The Captain of The Lord's army, The Lamb of God, I AM , The Light of the world, The Holy Spirit, The Comforter, The Lion of the tribe of Judah, The Gate, The Vine, The Bright and Morning Star, The Prince of Peace, The King of all kings, The Lord of all lords, The Teacher, The Shepard, The Way, The Truth, The Life, The Everlasting Father.

Does this mean that we have a separate person for every one of these names ? Of course not, there is only ONE God. Each Name of God reveals a nature of God.

I answer to many names. I have been called daddy, father, son, Lou, Louis, Louie, Big Lou, Sir Isaac, teacher, Mr Newton, husband, honey, preacher man, and many others that I would not want to list here for language like that is not allowed.

BUT I am NOT more than one person. I even have more than one part to me. I have a body, a soul and a spirit. But I am not more than one person.

The word person refers to personality. Or the different nature each different person possesses.

To say that God is three persons is to say that all three are of a different personality. BTW, that is exactly what Satan wants us to believe. Satan wants us to believe that the Head Guy did not come down and die for us, but that he sent a lessor god to do that.

The One and Only God Almighty shed His blood for us. If anyone but Him died on the cross, we would still be dead in our sins. Only God Almighty is righteous and able to pay for sin.

That is why He called Himself the King of Righteousness. God possesses that whole land ( or Kingdom) of Righteousness. No one else possesses one bit of The Kingdom of Righteousness. Jesus is The King of Righteousness.

I had a very good friend that used the term, Trinity, and it did not bother me because he believed there was only one God. So he used the term Trinity to refer to the fact that God is The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. I would never had thought to correct him, he was older than me and he was not using the term in error.

But I do not use the term Trinity, because MANY misuse it and some can think I condone that error. The Lord never ONCE used the term Trinity, how can I go wrong following His example. Why would I ever refer to Him as three when God continually tells us that He is ONE.

But I have had other friends use the term with great error:

I had this young man, let us call him Doug, that came to my house often. He used drugs before he was a Christian and I think he never was able to shake them entirely. The church that he attended taught him that Jesus was a separate person from The Father.

Once he asked me, " who do you pray to Lou". I said, God of course. He asked again, "No, who do you pray to, The Father, or Jesus". I thought the question was ridiculous, and answered, "Jesus, there is only one God no matter the name you address Him by".

He then told me that my prayers would not be answered, for we are told to pray to The Father. Of course he was referring to the prayer Jesus gave us, which we address, OUR FATHER. But Jesus is our Father.

Well time has revealed the truth of the matter. I have kept praying that way and many times people that were on their death bed have been healed. Broken bones have been made straight and healed immediately. I certainly have lost count of the many true miracles that The Lord preformed while he had me pray this way.

But the young man lost his faith for awhile and I was very concerned for him. I hope he came back to trusting in The Lord Jesus to save him. But he died a few years ago at a fairly young age. It makes me sad every time I think of this.

Error of any kind is never good. Satan is the father of all lies. Satan is the angel of knowledge and he is very smart. In fact it seems that he is the smartest being except for God who is far above him in every way. Think of this, Satan would never waste time promoting any lie that was harmless. Every lie he spreads is very harmful and causes the children of The Lord great suffering.

Hear, O Israel, The Lord your God is One. - Jesus, Himself, told us that this was the most important command of God.

Grace to you

Lou Newton

[Blane]

Lou,

There is much to prayerfully consider in this thread. Thank you for your input. I'm still trying to wrap my mind around some of these things. The Doctrine of the Trinity is a complex teaching, one in which I am still looking to God for clarity and understanding. We all agree that scripture cannot contradict scripture. Yet I can't think of another topic in all of scripture that is so complex and difficult to unravel. Some like to say, "This is one of those things that we just won't fully understand until we get to heaven." You probably consider such an attitude to be absurd.

You do make salient points regarding the fact that Isaiah 43:10 is in the Bible, and scripture cannot contradict scripture.

10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.

[Lou Newton]

Lou,

There is much to prayerfully consider in this thread. Thank you for your input. I'm still trying to wrap my mind around some of these things. The Doctrine of the Trinity is a complex teaching, one in which I am still looking to God for clarity and understanding. We all agree that scripture cannot contradict scripture. Yet I can't think of another topic in all of scripture that is so complex and difficult to unravel. Some like to say, "This is one of those things that we just won't fully understand until we get to heaven." You probably consider such an attitude to be absurd.

You do make salient points regarding the fact that Isaiah 43:10 is in the Bible, and scripture cannot contradict scripture.

10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.

Thanks for the reply Blane, and a very good one at that.

I was years coming to this conclusion. But I kept praying and seeking and just could not deny the truth that God revealed in His scriptures.

The traditions of men have kept me from accepting the simple truth so many times I can not count them. Jesus warned us not to follow the traditions of men. I have found that the popular opinion is almost always wrong.

You point out Isaiah 43 in which the Father says He is The Only God and the Only Savior and there is and will be no God except for Him.

But we also have the other way. In which the Father God calls the child Jesus, The Everlasting Father in Isiah 9:6

Isaiah 9:61599 Geneva Bible (GNV)

6 For unto us a child is born, and unto us a Son is given: and the government is upon his shoulder, and he shall call his name, Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God,The everlasting Father, The prince of peace.

It is this simple:

Jesus had to be born of a woman and be totally a man, or he could not fulfill the ancient law of the Kinsman Redeemer. He had to be our CLOSEST relative, which would be a man. He had to be a man to be able to be tempted by sin and go through everything we go through. He had to be a man for us to identify with Him as a brother.

BUT, Jesus also had to be totally and completely God Almighty. For if he was on little bit less than God, he would not be totally Righteous and able to resist sin, especially in the garden.

Satan is the being that God created closest to being God. He had the most knowledge and the most beauty, the most power etc. But he was certainly not God and so he fell in arrogance. Anyone one bit less than God, will FAIL at that very thing they lack that is not God Almighty. ONLY God Almighty can be sinless, no other being can do so.

Jesus could not lack one little bit of God Almighty, or God The Father, or he would fail too. The mission he was on, which was to be a total man, and NOT sin was close to impossible. Only God Almighty could accomplish it. The man Jesus could not lack one little bit of God and do what he came to do. We can see in the garden that it was very difficult. It is not difficult for God to resist sin, for he can not sin. But man can not be sinless. Man can only sin. Jesus had to be fully man, and so also had to be fully God to resist sin.

Whatever little bit of Jesus was one bit less than fully God Almighty would fail. He could lack NOTHING of God Almighty, or God The Father.

To surrender to the shameful death of a criminal and die naked on that cross required every bit of God's attributes. Jesus could not be one bit less than God Almighty in any way and succeed.

To say that God The Father is Higher than Jesus, is really to say that Jesus is less than God.

BUT, if Jesus is less than God, than He would not be God at all. For God is The Supreme being, the one and only Supreme Being. You can not be LESS and still be the MOST.

The way the Trinity is taught by many is simply a very very subtle way of saying that Jesus is not God Almighty.

Only God Almighty could pay for sin, and if Jesus was not God Almighty, we are all still dead in our sins.

Lou Newton

[Lou Newton]

While you are reading the Holy Scriptures if you run across a passage or verse that seems to agree with what I have written, OR you see a passage that seems to disagree with it, PLEASE post that passage and we can talk about it.

Lou

[Baruch]

Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

[Lou Newton]

Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Thanks Barry. Good scripture. There is ONE Lord, ONE Spirit. God is Spirit. There is but ONE.

[Blane]

To say that God is three persons is to say that all three are of a different personality. BTW, that is exactly what Satan wants us to believe. Satan wants us to believe that the Head Guy did not come down and die for us, but that he sent a lessor god to do that.

This makes sense.