September 11, 2001 - What happened to the World Trade Center Buildings?

[Travis]

This is attempt number two in what I hope to be an edifying discussion on what happened at ground zero of the WTC collapse on 9/11/2001.

Per Lou's request, and in an attempt to keep a civil conversation, no specific person or persons themselves will be promoted on this thread, although all primary sources and data are admissible as evidence (which needs to be cited). This discussion is limited to the data itself and ad hominem arguments are not to be made. If the evidence itself can be refuted or seen in a different light, that is fair game. Please refrain from outright conjecture. Off topic conversations will most likely be removed.

If you ask almost any American citizen over the age of ~23 where they were at and what they were doing on the morning of 9/11/2001, when they first heard about events happening in New York city, they will most likely be able to tell you precisely both of these things. This is probably the most memorable moment of the 21st century in the United States of America, to this point in time. We have a number of wars we engaged in which were justified because of what was said to have happened on this day. In fact, we have a perpetual war on 'terrorism' that is justified by this event. Having some idea of what happened that day is important to understanding a number of things that surround America's foreign policy, and whether they are legitimate or not. If things on the ground did not happen as they have been officially told, then there are some serious implications. One can decide for themselves exactly what those implications are or are not, but this thread is focused only on what really happened that day.

Next: To the evidence itself.

Travis

[Travis]

World Trade Center Building 7

WTC 7 was not hit with an airplane. Yet, WTC 7 still completely collapsed. Other buildings, like the Banker's Trust Building, which were very close by, did not collapse, even though they suffered damage. If I remember correctly, no other buildings beside World Trade Center buildings collapsed that day, though there were many other buildings in very close proximity.

Image186.jpg
Banker's Trust Building

Below is an arial shot of WTC 7 after it collapsed. It came down into it's own footprint almost perfectly, without much spillage.

WTC7 Arial.jpg

There is much more to be said about this, but why and how did WTC 7 completely collapse into it's own footprint?

Travis

[baobab]

Coulomb barrier

It is common knowledge among those who stayed awake in High School chemistry that the photon behaves as both a particle and a wave.
This is also true for matter. Matter behaves as particles and waves.

http://www.colorado.edu/physics/2000/quantumzone/debroglie.html

One thing we know. Something very non-conventional happened at the WTC complex the morning of 9-11-01.
There was a tremendous amount of missing debris at ground zero. The local seismographs did not show that over a million tons of buildings had collapsed. On 9-11-01 there was a full blown hurricane off the coast of NY that was not reported or underreported by the MSM. Even if the buildings were pre-loaded with thermite this would not account for the missing debris.

Somebody has technology that can overcome the molecular Coulomb barrier without using the conventional energy sources needed to accomplish this. Matter behaves as a wave which means everything has a resonance. If a molecule's frequency or resonance can be matched from an outside energy source the molecular and atomic bonds can be broken and the matter turns to dust. The energy must be at very high frequencies. This is not a nuclear reaction. An example of atomic bonds breaking would be a chunk of aluminum atoms losing their mutual attraction and becoming dust. This is what happened to most of the twin towers. We do not know what source caused this but we do know it was nothing conventional.

What can this energy source be?

We don’t know and those who do know are not telling. We can only guess. One place to look is the High Frequency Active Auroral Research Program (HAARP). HAARP operates using high frequency electromagnetic energy beams. These beams are bounced off the aurora. The energy bounces off the aurora and returns at an exponentially higher energy. Low frequency energy beams shoot right through the aurora as if it were not there. We don’t know how advanced HAARP has become but we do know a lot of time money and other resources have been pumped into the program for decades. I believe that HAARP might be able to match molecular frequencies or resonances and turn large chunks of matter to dust. When the conspiracy nuts blamed HAARP for earthquakes I thought they were off their rockers. It is low frequency that penetrates the earth. Oil companies use low frequency energy beams to look for underground oil deposits. High frequency does not work for this. But…. If super high frequency can eliminate molecular and atomic bonds then it just might work. It might be able to create a line of eliminated molecular/atomic bonds and create a shift in the earth’s crust. I’m not saying emphatically that HAARP can create earthquakes but I’m not ruling it out. I’m not saying emphatically that HAARP technology was used on the WTC complex on 9-11-1 but I’m not ruling it out either.

If Tesla were alive today, he might have some valuable insight to this. His works were confiscated and then classified upon his death.

[Lou Newton]

It is common knowledge among those who stayed awake in High School chemistry that the photon behaves as both a particle and a wave.
This is also true for matter. Matter behaves as particles and waves.

http://www.colorado.edu/physics/2000/quantumzone/debroglie.html

One thing we know. Something very non-conventional happened at the WTC complex the morning of 9-11-01.
There was a tremendous amount of missing debris at ground zero. The local seismographs did not show that over a million tons of buildings had collapsed. On 9-11-01 there was a full blown hurricane off the coast of NY that was not reported or underreported by the MSM. Even if the buildings were pre-loaded with thermite this would not account for the missing debris.

Somebody has technology that can overcome the molecular Coulomb barrier without using the conventional energy sources needed to accomplish this. Matter behaves as a wave which means everything has a resonance. If a molecule's frequency or resonance can be matched from an outside energy source the molecular and atomic bonds can be broken and the matter turns to dust. The energy must be at very high frequencies. This is not a nuclear reaction. An example of atomic bonds breaking would be a chunk of aluminum atoms losing their mutual attraction and becoming dust. This is what happened to most of the twin towers. We do not know what source caused this but we do know it was nothing conventional.

What can this energy source be?

We don’t know and those who do know are not telling. We can only guess. One place to look is the High Frequency Active Auroral Research Program (HAARP). HAARP operates using high frequency electromagnetic energy beams. These beams are bounced off the aurora. The energy bounces off the aurora and returns at an exponentially higher energy. Low frequency energy beams shoot right through the aurora as if it were not there. We don’t know how advanced HAARP has become but we do know a lot of time money and other resources have been pumped into the program for decades. I believe that HAARP might be able to match molecular frequencies or resonances and turn large chunks of matter to dust. When the conspiracy nuts blamed HAARP for earthquakes I thought they were off their rockers. It is low frequency that penetrates the earth. Oil companies use low frequency energy beams to look for underground oil deposits. High frequency does not work for this. But…. If super high frequency can eliminate molecular and atomic bonds then it just might work. It might be able to create a line of eliminated molecular/atomic bonds and create a shift in the earth’s crust. I’m not saying emphatically that HAARP can create earthquakes but I’m not ruling it out. I’m not saying emphatically that HAARP technology was used on the WTC complex on 9-11-1 but I’m not ruling it out either.

If Tesla were alive today, he might have some valuable insight to this. His works were confiscated and then classified upon his death.

Here are only a few of the many questions that this brings to my mind:

1 - If some evil group has an alternate powerful destructive energy weapon why have they not used it again in 14 years since 9/11 ?

2 - All of these theories neglect the elephant in the room. The tower was hit by an airplane weighing over 400,000 # going over 550 MPH. I seen that with my own eyes. How did this group get these volunteers to commit suicide and murder on that exact day.

3 - Who did this ?

4 - Where did they house this terrible weapon ?

5 -If someone has made a discovery that changes all of our laws of Physics, that would change the world. If they have done this to gain power, or gain riches, then why not just sell this new type of energy to the world. This would gain them more power and wealth than any use of it as a weapon.

I also have a question for you two if would not mind. Do you believe that the US has landed men on the moon.

Lou

[baobab]

The ice was here, the ice was there, The ice was all around:

Lou asks:
“1 - If some evil group has an alternate powerful destructive energy weapon why have they not used it again in 14 years since 9/11?”

Good question. I don’t know. Maybe it was a test run.

“2 - All of these theories neglect the elephant in the room. The tower was hit by an airplane weighing over 400,000 # going over 550 MPH. I seen that with my own eyes. How did this group get these volunteers to commit suicide and murder on that exact day.”

I believe there is a possibility the entire crew and passengers were gassed sometime after the Twin Tower planes were airborne then controlled remotely from WTC building #7. I don’t believe the Arabs had anything to do with it. They needed to be blamed in order for the fake never ending war on terror to be legitimate in the eyes of the masses and to get the Patriot Act legislation passed.
I’m not neglecting the elephant in the room. If the planes took the towers down then where is the pile of debris? There was not enough debris to account for the material in the buildings at ground zero. And WTC #7 didn’t get hit. It was 47 stories high. There was not enough of a blip on the local seismographs to account for over a million tons of debris crashing down.

“3 - Who did this ?”

The official story is so full of holes; I think the U.S. government was involved on some level. If the Arabs did it then the investigation would have been more transparent. The only plane allowed to take off during the total grounding of all U.S. flights was the plane carrying Osama’s family. This is highly suspicious.

“4 - Where did they house this terrible weapon ?”

I don’t know.

“5 -If someone has made a discovery that changes all of our laws of Physics, that would change the world. If they have done this to gain power, or gain riches, then why not just sell this new type of energy to the world. This would gain them more power and wealth than any use of it as a weapon.”

I don’t think this weapon changes the laws of physics but rather shows us there is advanced technology that is hidden from us. Whoever has it probably doesn’t need more riches or power. The only thing left for them is more control. If they have a monopoly on this it gives them more control.

“I also have a question for you two if would not mind. Do you believe that the US has landed men on the moon.”

I talked to Gen Charles Duke personally. He told me he walked on the moon. He is my brother in the faith and I don’t think he was lying to me. He also said walking with Jesus is even more exciting. He suffered post lunar depression but not post salvation depression.

[Blane]

On 9-11-01 there was a full blown hurricane off the coast of NY that was not reported or underreported by the MSM.

Hi Baobab,

Could you elaborate on this? I've never heard this before. September 11 was such a pitcuresque day with a blue sky and so sunny.

None of us will ever forget the video footage from that day. Particularly the crowds of terrified people fleeing the clouds of dust that enveloped the collapse. I sensed even then that something wasn't right. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the technology you describe exists. The computer chip is no less amazing in my opinion, and it exists. But I don't believe it was developed by human minds. It's way beyond anything that the fraility of man can come up with. God said in one of the epistles that knowledge would increase in the last days. Perhaps the satanic kingdom has been allowed by God to impart certain knowledge to some. Even if this is true, we know that God is sovereign. So we don't need to fear anything that the evil mind of man can conceive and attempt to execute.

I believe this thread can be useful for bible believing Christians. There is no harm in preparing our minds for things that may one day come to pass that go beyond anything we know or understand. The key is to view them through the serenity of knowing that God is sovereign. Nothing can happen that God doesn't first allow.

Blane

[Travis]

One thing we know. Something very non-conventional happened at the WTC complex the morning of 9-11-01.
There was a tremendous amount of missing debris at ground zero. The local seismographs did not show that over a million tons of buildings had collapsed.

This is true,

Seismographs recorded values for the North and South twin towers at 2.3 and 2.1, respectively, on the richter scale.

http://www.dnr.state.md.us/irc/docs/00013655.pdf

2.1 on the richter scale is about equivalent to 15 kg of TNT being detonated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richter_magnitude_scale

This fertilizer plant explosion in Texas was recorded as a 2.1 as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Fertilizer_Company_explosion

The destruction of the Seattle Kingdome building registered as a 2.3 on the richter scale.

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=20000327&slug=4012219

This is despite the fact that the Kingdome had ~1/30 the potential energy that the South Tower possessed.

The impact of the Twin towers was actually incredibly small all things considered. Had the full force of the original potential energy contained in each tower struck the ground, I highly doubt the bathtub would have withstood the impact, and lower Manhattan would most likely have been flooded due to the breach. All things considered, the destruction of the World Trade Center on 9/11/01 was highly contained and was a lot less detrimental to the surrounding area than it could have been. Many things could have happened that would have had even more lasting effects.

Travis

[Lou Newton]

My comments are in Bold:

Lou asks:
“1 - If some evil group has an alternate powerful destructive energy weapon why have they not used it again in 14 years since 9/11?”

Good question. I don’t know. Maybe it was a test run.

To think anyone would develop such a weapon and then leave it idle for 15 years I think is simply preposterous. Those who could have done so could be dead by now. No one could invent such a thing and then simply leave it go unnoticed for that period of time.

“2 - All of these theories neglect the elephant in the room. The tower was hit by an airplane weighing over 400,000 # going over 550 MPH. I seen that with my own eyes. How did this group get these volunteers to commit suicide and murder on that exact day.”

I believe there is a possibility the entire crew and passengers were gassed sometime after the Twin Tower planes were airborne then controlled remotely from WTC building #7. I don’t believe the Arabs had anything to do with it. They needed to be blamed in order for the fake never ending war on terror to be legitimate in the eyes of the masses and to get the Patriot Act legislation passed.
I’m not neglecting the elephant in the room. If the planes took the towers down then where is the pile of debris? There was not enough debris to account for the material in the buildings at ground zero. And WTC #7 didn’t get hit. It was 47 stories high. There was not enough of a blip on the local seismographs to account for over a million tons of debris crashing down.

This is simply denying the evidence. The one plane had plenty of people on the plane that's sent texts and called loved ones and said it was Arabs that had hijacked their plane.

“3 - Who did this ?”

The official story is so full of holes; I think the U.S. government was involved on some level. If the Arabs did it then the investigation would have been more transparent. The only plane allowed to take off during the total grounding of all U.S. flights was the plane carrying Osama’s family. This is highly suspicious.

“4 - Where did they house this terrible weapon ?”

I don’t know.

“5 -If someone has made a discovery that changes all of our laws of Physics, that would change the world. If they have done this to gain power, or gain riches, then why not just sell this new type of energy to the world. This would gain them more power and wealth than any use of it as a weapon.”

I don’t think this weapon changes the laws of physics but rather shows us there is advanced technology that is hidden from us. Whoever has it probably doesn’t need more riches or power. The only thing left for them is more control. If they have a monopoly on this it gives them more control.

For a weapon to do this, it would change the laws of physics. Matter can not do what is claimed here under the present laws of physics.

“I also have a question for you two if would not mind. Do you believe that the US has landed men on the moon.”

I talked to Gen Charles Duke personally. He told me he walked on the moon. He is my brother in the faith and I don’t think he was lying to me. He also said walking with Jesus is even more exciting. He suffered post lunar depression but not post salvation depression.

Glad to hear you say that.

Me and my son Isaac was watching Duke on TV when he said that.

I went to the restroom and I heard him say that. It was from The Holy Spirit through Dukes lips.

My son Isaac was only maybe four. He came running into the hallway and said, Daddy did you hear what he said?. I said what ? Isaac then quoted Duke, He said "Walking on the moon is the dust of my life compared to walking with Christ".

I was very pleased that Isaac had recognized that it was from the Holy Spirit and he was very excited about Duke saying that. We both recognized it was a spirit word.

The Holy Spirit does not lie.

The evidence is overwhelming that they did walk on the moon.

Lou

[Travis]

If the planes took the towers down then where is the pile of debris? There was not enough debris to account for the material in the buildings at ground zero.

Hey baobab,

You've mentioned a couple times about there being a lack of debris at ground zero. Where did you get this notion, that there is a lack of debris, from? Is it that obvious, that we should all just now there is a huge lack of debris? Or does one need to be some sort of scientist to know that fact?



Just about everything about 9/11 is plain strange, no matter how you look at it in my opinion. When I go back and watch the footage of the towers collapsing, I see these self-generating plumes of dust expanding rapidly in all directions, emanating from the base point of the towers themselves. They are just pouring out endlessly is seems, not quite like anything I've ever seen. Not as if the air being pushed out between the floors is moving the dust, but as if the dust is just endlessly being generated from itself. The towers themselves seem to just fall at nearly free fall speeds as well, reaching the ground in no time, as if there is almost no resistance. I don't see C4 or RDX explosions cascading down the building either, or anything to indicate that some sort of conventional demolition is taking place, instead the building just collapses down on itself. For one tower to collapse… that would be a big deal. But for both towers to collapse… that's a wow. And then WTC 7 just falls down on its own after burning for hours… How many steel framed buildings have collapsed from fire damage alone? I'm not sure the answer on that one. I could probably guess that WTC 7 would be the only one and be pretty close to the truth. That is assuming that fire alone caused it's collapse though.

What happened on 9/11/01 confuses me, especially from a conventional standpoint.

Travis

[baobab]

This post is untitled

9-11-01 news footage:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXG6bDh632o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OIpggbLjXY

[Blane]

9-11-01 news footage:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXG6bDh632o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OIpggbLjXY

These brief videos of 9-11 footage certainly raise more questions than answers. Such enormous clouds of dust; and so little debris remaining. Yet paper littered the streets everywhere, seemingly unchanged by the collapse. Why were solid materials like steel, concrete, glass, and gypsum seemingly vaporized, while fragile materials like paper remained in mass quantities?

Blane

[TennesseeLinda]

These brief videos of 9-11 footage certainly raise more questions than answers. Such enormous clouds of dust; and so little debris remaining. Yet paper littered the streets everywhere, seemingly unchanged by the collapse. Why were solid materials like steel, concrete, glass, and gypsum seemingly vaporized, while fragile materials like paper remained in mass quantities?

Blane

Agreed, Blane. I think this is one of those things we will never have an answer for, like the booms heard all over the world right now.

[baobab]

It's a bird, its a plane its.... we don't know what it is

Blane queries:
"Why were solid materials like steel, concrete, glass, and gypsum seemingly vaporized, while fragile materials like paper remained in mass quantities?"

Energy was applied to the WTC complex. This is all we know. We do not know the nature of the energy applied. Somebody knows how to eliminate molecular/atomic bonds on a grand scale. The owners know if this technology were let out of the bag then it could be used against them also.

Linda,
What booms?
I haven't heard (no pun intended) of this or I missed the thread if it was previously posted.

[Travis]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXG6bDh632o

The transcript of that first video, from 38 seconds to 53 seconds reads:

"But the Question is, where is all the rubble? it seems so flattened. How could so much steel and concrete just vaporize? Did it all turn to dust? It's one of the questions we will try to answer in the next little while."

I would like to hear the next part of the news report that attempted to explain where all the rubble went.



Travis

[Lou Newton]

Blane queries:
"Why were solid materials like steel, concrete, glass, and gypsum seemingly vaporized, while fragile materials like paper remained in mass quantities?"

Energy was applied to the WTC complex. This is all we know. We do not know the nature of the energy applied. Somebody knows how to eliminate molecular/atomic bonds on a grand scale. The owners know if this technology were let out of the bag then it could be used against them also.

Linda,
What booms?
I haven't heard (no pun intended) of this or I missed the thread if it was previously posted.

Hi Baobab,

You say energy was applied to the Towers. I take it you mean energy other than the planes flying into the towers.

Then you say :

Somebody knows how to eliminate molecular/atomic bonds on a grand scale.

God created the Sun and the other stars that do overcome atomic molecular bonds; BUT these stars also release so much radiation that they have to be millions of miles from the Earth so that man is not destroyed.

First of all I see no evidence, other than suspicion and speculation, that energy was applied to the towers.

Second if a mere man could do such a thing he has surpassed what God has done in the stars.

For there was no killing radiation from the towers.

It is impossible for atomic molecular bonds to be overcome without great amounts of heat being released and great amounts of radiation being released.

This is the most important natural law from God. Energy and matter can NOT be created or destroyed. Only God can do this. Mere man can NOT create, which also means that he can NOT destroy energy and matter. This is the law that all of our science stands on. It is the number one law. But it was not invented by man, but only discovered by man. For God is the one who created this law.

Now God has allowed man to change matter into energy, BUT not DESTROY matter. For God alone can do that.

There are huge amounts of energy holding atoms together. It takes huge amounts to overcome the electric charge of the protons. For like charges repel one another. The electric charge force is 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times stronger than gravity. Yes 10 followed by 36 zeros.

The strong nuclear force is many times stronger than the electric force. This force has to be overcome to break these atomic bonds. When that HUGE amount of energy is released it will melt everything that is close to it. There would be no pile of steel left from the towers at all.

There is enough energy in a mere one pound of steel to totally destroy a city if one could release the atomic molecular bonds of that steel. Of course the radiation would kill almost everyone within miles. When molecular bonds are released, radiation is given off. I do not think any mere man has found a better way to do this than God uses Himself. When the matter is changed to energy that gives off huge amounts of energy as heat and radiation.

This whole free energy idea is a false thing being preached by the New Age people to imply that man can surpass what God has done in His Creation.

God has allowed man to make a bomb that overcomes atomic molecular bonds. That bomb does not destroy matter, but changes a tiny portion of matter into energy. But it is puny compared to the stars and gives off a lot of radiation to pollute the earth. So mere man has not surpassed God by making this bomb. But if mere man could make a weapon to release energy to overcome atomic molecular bonds without releasing a huge amount of heat and radiation, then mere man would also be a creator. In fact mere men would have surpassed the creation of God. If man can destroy matter, then he can also create matter. So man would have become God. There is but one Creator, and no mere man is The Creator.

A small point would also be this: if the steel was vaporized why was it not all vaporized ?

To say the pile of debris was too small is neglecting the real facts.

I read that the pile of debris was 100 feet high above ground. But it also went 70 feet below ground. But the whole basement that these towers sat in was far bigger than the footprint of the towers which were about an acre each in square footage. The bathtub was 980 feet x 520 feet. So much of the debris went into this bathtub.

So if the pile of debris was only 170 feet high from towers that were over 1300 feet tall; the debris covered a far bigger area than an acre and instead covered about 7 acres. Of course the pile of debris would not be a full 170 feet high out at the edges. Taken over the area of the debris pile that might make a pile about 50 feet high on the average. The tower was one acre. If one takes all 7 acres and piles them on top of one another; 7 x 50 = 350 feet high pile of debris. That certainly is lot of debris for a 1300 foot building. That is a huge pile of steel on the ground from the towers.

There was a huge amount of gypsum in the towers. That all went to dust and was the dust people saw. Also a lot of the concrete went to dust.

These towers were obviously mostly space. Even the walls are mostly space and not steel, just as the walls in our house is mostly space and not all wood.

I do not think it is good to draw conclusions from speculation and suspicion.

Lou Newton